Figure Skating and Classical Ballet

[Anna K.]

Obviously, this thread is staying for longer than just one discussion. So I changed the previous thread name Balletic Posture vs Deep Knees: What Makes the Interpretation of Classical Ballet Themes Good (the relevant discussion is still here, you can look it up in the first 3 pages). Now, parallel to Figure Skating and Modern Dance thread, it is here to explore the fusion of these forms of art.

What do you think about classical ballet themes on ice? Do you have ballet-related questions to discuss? You are welcome on Figure Skating and Classical Ballet thread

Similar threads:
Ballets inspired by skating
Figure skating and modern dance

 

[Tutto]

Balletic posture wins here.
Look no further than to Kolyada's SP this season, his posture which is always notable, here is accentuated by a perfectly fitted costume - simply regal. His is THE Prince. He is believable.
Take the posture away and the program would lose a half of its credibility.

 

[Imagine]

Skating programs set to ballet music are my favourite, and some of the most iconic imo. A recent example that comes to mind is Zagitova’s Olympic winning FS (her SP…less so). She doesn’t have that beautiful balletic posture you are talking about, but the program was fun, energetic, and really well timed to the music. Overall, I don’t think figure skating and ballet are that similar to be honest. The physicality required in each sport presents differently. Ballet is more musically nuanced and positions are held, displaying the dancer’s strength and precision. There’s often no time for that in a figure skating program packed with difficult elements. Whereas in figure skating, a skater is able to convey a sense of speed—moving and jumping across the ice—that doesn’t really exist in ballet. Sure, certain skaters have beautiful posture and give performances that are reminiscent of classical ballet:






But it’s not ballet, and not all skaters skate in this style. That makes skating uniquely enjoyable in its own way. In my opinion, a figure skater doesn’t need to have balletic posture in order to deliver a good program set to ballet music. I think it comes down to the overall aesthetic package the skater presents (which is not to say that they are supposed to resemble ballet dancers on skates!), how well they interpret the music, and whether or not the program tells a story. So…similar to ballet just in a different way.

 

[mrrice]

Well, If you're lucky, you have both. Until Nathan knocked them off the top spot. I had Plushy and Patrick Chan as the most "Balletic Men" I had ever seen perform live. The Deep Knees and Edges go to Patrick Chan, Followed by Todd Eldredge. I was just swooning over Plushy when he gave me a Hi-5 in Vancouver......

 

[keasus]

I have known several professional dancers (ballet and modern). They struck beautiful poses on the ice but had no concept that almost all skating involves an edge and moving on an arc.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Well, If you're lucky, you have both. Until Nathan knocked them off the top spot. I had Plushy and Patrick Chan as the most "Balletic Men" I had ever seen perform live. The Deep Knees and Edges go to Patrick Chan, Followed by Todd Eldredge. I was just swooning over Plushy when he gave me a Hi-5 in Vancouver......

For me Patrick Chan's Chopin embodies Ballet perfectly (Despite Patricks limited flexibility relative to ballet dancers)

Four Continents Championships 2016 Patrick CHAN Free Program

www.youtube.com

 

[Anna K.]

I have known several professional dancers (ballet and modern). They struck beautiful poses on the ice but had no concept that almost all skating involves an edge and moving on an arc.

This. The whole dilemma explained in just a few words
This is why dancing (ballet or modern) on ice is much bigger challenge than it seems and why I respect everyone who can deliver it.

Skating programs set to ballet music are my favourite, and some of the most iconic imo. A recent example that comes to mind is Zagitova’s Olympic winning FS (her SP…less so). She doesn’t have that beautiful balletic posture you are talking about, but the program was fun, energetic, and really well timed to the music. Overall, I don’t think figure skating and ballet are that similar to be honest. The physicality required in each sport presents differently. Ballet is more musically nuanced and positions are held, displaying the dancer’s strength and precision. There’s often no time for that in a figure skating program packed with difficult elements. Whereas in figure skating, a skater is able to convey a sense of speed—moving and jumping across the ice—that doesn’t really exist in ballet.

But it’s not ballet, and not all skaters skate in this style. That makes skating uniquely enjoyable in its own way. In my opinion, a figure skater doesn’t need to have balletic posture in order to deliver a good program set to ballet music. I think it comes down to the overall aesthetic package the skater presents (which is not to say that they are supposed to resemble ballet dancers on skates!), how well they interpret the music, and whether or not the program tells a story. So…similar to ballet just in a different way.

I just your view!
Talking about the overall aesthetic package, I so Sasha's Swan Lake dress! I hope this trend comes back one day to replace naked/nacre costumes (couldn't help mentioning this, haha). Thank you for posting the link, great program. I particularly love the final spin with that crazy arm position. Who said ballet can't be like that? Sure it can!

Balletic posture wins here.
Look no further than to Kolyada's SP this season, his posture which is always notable, here is accentuated by a perfectly fitted costume - simply regal. His is THE Prince. He is believable.
Take the posture away and the program would lose a half of its credibility.

I can confess now: Kolyada's short, Rostelecom Cup, was my inspiration to start this thread. He really did a lot of ballet steps and poses, an unbelievable lot. Steps when he sits in his knees to gain speed were but few and eventually there was not enough speed and power to land clean jumps. With all my respect to difficult programs, I had a strong feeling that this program was literary ballet to the fault.
But then again. I don't want this program to change, it's great and suits him so well.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for the thread. Great topic!

 

[Dawn825]

To me ballet programs are definitely more about the posture, and how you lift your arms and legs. But edges and knee bend are a unique aspect of figure skating that is not about ballet. Personally I'm dying for more well-done ballet programs, exclusively by skaters who have that beautiful posture (looking at you Kostornaia).

 

[Anna K.]

For me Patrick Chan's Chopin embodies Ballet perfectly (Despite Patricks limited flexibility relative to ballet dancers)

Four Continents Championships 2016 Patrick CHAN Free Program

www.youtube.com

Thank you for the link!
This program is beautiful. I watched it twice. Absolutely gives me the vibe of modern ballet. At the same time it's doubtlessly skating from beginning till the end and at what speed! Amazing.

 

[vorravorra]

This. The whole dilemma explained in just a few words
This is why dancing (ballet or modern) on ice is much bigger challenge than it seems and why I respect everyone who can deliver it.


I just your view!
Talking about the overall aesthetic package, I so Sasha's Swan Lake dress! I hope this trend comes back one day to replace naked/nacre costumes (couldn't help mentioning this, haha). Thank you for posting the link, great program. I particularly love the final spin with that crazy arm position. Who said ballet can't be like that? Sure it can!

I can confess now: Kolyada's short, Rostelecom Cup, was my inspiration to start this thread. He really did a lot of ballet steps and poses, an unbelievable lot. Steps when he sits in his knees to gain speed were but few and eventually there was not enough speed and power to land clean jumps. With all my respect to difficult programs, I had a strong feeling that this program was literary ballet to the fault.
But then again. I don't want this program to change, it's great and suits him so well.

The main reason for the lack of sufficient speed to land the jumps is not ballet, it's deliberate slowing down of entries to gain more control, since insufficient control due to excessive speed on entry has been one of Kolyada's major problems. Obviously it's proving hard to strike a balance.

 

[el henry]

Over 45 years later.

Still the finest ballet on ice.

Still the finest Don Quixote.

Still the standard.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I think the key is choosing the right musical composition from the ballet. Not all of them can get a beautiful interpretation on ice. I once saw The Nutcracker performed by the St. Petersburg State Ballet on Ice. The artists tried very hard, but the performance still lost to the "usual" ballet. Some places looked great, but overall the comparison was not in favor of the ice version.

In the case of using music from ballet not for shows, but in competitions, it is even more difficult - after all, you need to perform difficult jumps. For example, in the dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy, this is completely inappropriate.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Well, If you're lucky, you have both.

Yes! In fact, coming from a ballet background I think ideally you should have both. In both ballet and skating, it's important to control the lower and upper body so that they're independent but at the same time cooperative, so that the legs can work while leaving the torso free to gesture.

Actually kneebend (plie/fondu) is very important for ballet. Every class begins with plies, and some plie element is incorporated into most other exercises (tendu, fondu, even port de bras). 32 fouettes, Romantic-era petit allegro, huge bravura male variations all rely on efficient usage of plies. So I think good posture and smooth knee action are both needed for a 'classical ballet'-themed skating programme to fit the source material.

This is assuming 'deep knees' refers to a range of motion rather than a permanent position. Ice dancers and dry-land dancers alike rise up and down, they aren't stuck in a permanent squat (some singles skaters on the other hand...)

 

[Anna K.]

The main reason for the lack of sufficient speed to land the jumps is not ballet, it's deliberate slowing down of entries to gain more control, since insufficient control due to excessive speed on entry has been one of Kolyada's major problems. Obviously it's proving hard to strike a balance.

He definitely overdid slowing down before the quad. Gave me shivers NOT in a good sense of word. Hopefully he sorts out his issues before Olympics This routine looks to me like the short program winner there. If clean, of course.

 

[Anna K.]

I think the key is choosing the right musical composition from the ballet. Not all of them can get a beautiful interpretation on ice. I once saw The Nutcracker performed by the St. Petersburg State Ballet on Ice. The artists tried very hard, but the performance still lost to the "usual" ballet. Some places looked great, but overall the comparison was not in favor of the ice version.

In the case of using music from ballet not for shows, but in competitions, it is even more difficult - after all, you need to perform difficult jumps. For example, in the dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy, this is completely inappropriate.

I did a little research inspired by you example. Not that I wanted to prove you wrong or something, we all are free to have our beliefs about what is appropriate or not. It is simply a perfect piece of music to add the videos to compare all three, the ballet version, on-ice ballet version that uses some ballet steps, and the competition version with jumps. (I'll need 2 posts because only 2 media in 1 post are allowed)

In fact, the Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy is often used in competitions. It has a slow part, an agitated part, and a strong rhythm that makes it easy to interpret. That's why it is often used for children and also in adult competitions.

Here is Maria Sotskova performing it in a competition:

 

[Anna K.]

Then. here is Dorothy Hamill doing a close-to-ballet version in a pro competition:





And, for comparison, the original ballet scene:




Just wanted to post these back-to-back

 

[Tutto]

But it’s not ballet, and not all skaters skate in this style. That makes skating uniquely enjoyable in its own way. In my opinion, a figure skater doesn’t need to have balletic posture in order to deliver a good program set to ballet music. I think it comes down to the overall aesthetic package the skater presents (which is not to say that they are supposed to resemble ballet dancers on skates!), how well they interpret the music, and whether or not the program tells a story. So…similar to ballet just in a different way.

I think Kaetlyn Osmond's Swan Lake is a good example of storytelling you are talking about without being over balletic and yet very watchable:

2018 OG 08 L-LP Kaetlyn Osmond - Swanlake Tchaikovsky NBC no commentary

www.youtube.com

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I did a little research inspired by you example. Not that I wanted to prove you wrong or something, we all are free to have our beliefs about what is appropriate or not. It is simply a perfect piece of music to add the videos to compare all three, the ballet version, on-ice ballet version that uses some ballet steps, and the competition version with jumps. (I'll need 2 posts because only 2 media in 1 post are allowed)

In fact, the Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy is often used in competitions. It has a slow part, an agitated part, and a strong rhythm that makes it easy to interpret. That's why it is often used for children and also in adult competitions.

Here is Maria Sotskova performing it in a competition:

I have no significant objections to video number 2. This is just an attempt to get as close as possible to ballet interpretations, which is especially noticeable towards the end. The dynamics are sometimes exaggerated, but this is inevitable when an artist is on the ice and not on stage.

At the same time, in video number one, I see exactly what I have already said - jumps do not look entirely appropriate. The choreographer “disguised” these elements twice, placing them at the end of the musical phrase (this technique is used quite often, as I notice) and once - on the “percussion” measure (I don’t know how to call it correctly). But then two more "percussive" measures followed - without jumps, which made a contrast.

Of course, my perception is subjective in any case. In my perception, the Sugar Plum Fairy is a very fragile, quivering "airy" creature, which is completely unusual for sharp bursts of energy, which are expressed as jumps. When performing this dance, the ballerina usually makes "timid", seemingly not quite confident movements. Most of the dance is often performed on pointe. How can this be replaced on ice - I don't know. Yes, there is a fast part in the dance, but even it is permeated with tenderness, not athleticism.

A waltz of flowers is a completely different matter. It is also used more or less often, I have seen different interpretations, but it seems to me that the full potential of this music has not yet been revealed in figure skating.

 

[Anna K.]

I have no significant objections to video number 2. This is just an attempt to get as close as possible to ballet interpretations, which is especially noticeable towards the end. The dynamics are sometimes exaggerated, but this is inevitable when an artist is on the ice and not on stage.

At the same time, in video number one, I see exactly what I have already said - jumps do not look entirely appropriate. The choreographer “disguised” these elements twice, placing them at the end of the musical phrase (this technique is used quite often, as I notice) and once - on the “percussion” measure (I don’t know how to call it correctly). But then two more "percussive" measures followed - without jumps, which made a contrast.

Of course, my perception is subjective in any case. In my perception, the Sugar Plum Fairy is a very fragile, quivering "airy" creature, which is completely unusual for sharp bursts of energy, which are expressed as jumps. When performing this dance, the ballerina usually makes "timid", seemingly not quite confident movements. Most of the dance is often performed on pointe. How can this be replaced on ice - I don't know. Yes, there is a fast part in the dance, but even it is permeated with tenderness, not athleticism.

A waltz of flowers is a completely different matter. It is also used more or less often, I have seen different interpretations, but it seems to me that the full potential of this music has not yet been revealed in figure skating.

Regarding Sotskova, some judges might actually agree with you
The standard of matching elements/moves with musical phrases has been set generations ago (earlier in this thread, there is a John Curry video, dated 1976. which illustrates this perfectly) and this is what mostly makes the interpretation mark today. Which also means that for the judging panel, this is an open question every single time if the skater and/or choreographer execute it perfectly and appropriate for the music/story.

I'm curios though what do you think in general about this trend when female skaters try to look airy and fragile on ice? I think this question is on topic because such image is clearly ballet-inspired. (Of course, pointes can't be used on ice but there are other elements, like, spins and spirals, that support this image.)