Gilles and Poirier debut their Olympic programs

[GoneWithTheWind]

Subjectivity and all that, for sure. However, it seems that you haven't been with Piper & Paul on their journey from the very beginning. So, you don't appear to get all of the nuances, the beautiful connection, the intention, the emotion, and the spirit of their partnership dance through the years. Your loss, if that's the case. This program is the touching culmination of everything they have given to us and to each other. It's not grand, self-important or overly self-reflective, but it is lovely and creative. It certainly references their recent FDs, in a good, emotional and relevant way. It's not a 'rehash,' as you say you 'feared.' But then maybe you missed what the other programs are about as well.

You may not feel 'freshness' from this FD, as you say. I'm not sure what kind of 'freshness' you are seeking though. [BTW, Kaitlyn Weaver, in her commentating role, described this FD as both 'familiar and fresh.' So I guess Kaitlyn disagrees with you there ] For me, P&P are as creative, quirky and interesting as always. Nothing they have ever created has been stale. Their journey isn't just starting and their bodies aren't young anymore. But their minds and their hearts are as fresh, stimulating, delightful, clever, and expressive as always. If you don't get it, you don't get it. And that's okay.

ETA:
I'm also not sure what you mean by the program 'not exciting you.' What were you expecting? Do programs always have to be 'exciting'? I find it altogether stimulating and expressive, in the way the rendition is sung, in the choreography, and in P&P's poignant performance (which is lovely and evocative of their partnership dance over the years).

You are correct, I haven't followed Piper and Paul from the beginning, so perhaps I am missing some nuances. However, I feel that it shouldn't be necessary to be familiar with a skater or team's entire back catalogue to enjoy or understand their current programs.

Perhaps 'excites' was the wrong word to pick, I meant that the program didn't immediately provoke any big reaction in me. It clearly did for you, which is wonderful; I'm sure I see and feel things in my favourites' programs that others do not necessarily see/feel, which is partly why figure skating is such a subjective sport, and this is okay. For me, their FD was well choreographed, it was pretty, expressive and well skated but it did not particularly move me or make me immediately want to watch it again. But, this was their first competition of the season, the program may well grow on me, and perhaps, with better camera work, some of the details and nuances will be more obvious.

I was worried it might be a rehash when I heard they were using another emotional ballad, covered by the same musician who created their version of Vincent. However, as you say, while this FD does reference the others, it is not just a 2.0 of either of their previous two FDs and I am pleased about this. They have done very innovative before and were not rewarded, they've now found a style that works (for them and for the judges) and are sticking to it for what I'm guessing is their final season, which is a smart decision.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Their program has very little chance of winning a non-team Olympic medal. It does not have great excitement, nor emotion, nor creativity. And they don’t have any kind of technical advantage.

 

[Skatesocs]

Their program has very little chance of winning a non-team Olympic medal. It does not have great excitement, nor emotion, nor creativity. And they don’t have any kind of technical advantage.

He's here lmao

 

[Blades of Passion]

Hi there. Really, within a minute of their Free Dance, every signal was flashing “they are going to be also-rans”. That program does nothing to make the judges want to elevate them over other teams for a medal. I think they should change it if they want to be more competitive. And not put general audiences to sleep.

 

[Skatesocs]

Hi there. Really, within a minute of their Free Dance, every signal was flashing “they are going to be also-rans”. That program does nothing to make the judges want to elevate them over other teams for a medal. I think they should change it if they want to be more competitive. And not put general audiences to sleep.

I think Gilles/Poirier have not really ever clicked for me, but I must lay my biases on the table. When you watch a lot of dance, then Ice Dance stops seeming appealing (though I think Paul is probably a nice off-ice dancer, at least based off how he moves his body sometimes). It's too robotic, restricted, and just plain unmusical and forced. I like P/C and Muramoto/Takahashi (this season) though.

Yes, I do agree that neither dance seemed good, to me. Elton John seemed entirely costume-based. Beatles cover, depending on which era of the Beatles the song they covered came from, already means I'll not find the wit, the poetry, or the mass appeal, with some exceptions, which this wasn't.

 

[4everchan]

in the end, it doesn't matter if you like the music or the choreography... what matters is how they will perform the elements. People said the same of Both Sides Now... and it ended up putting them on the podium, and nearly on the second step.

 

[chuckm]

Just can't get past that hideous version of Long and Winding Road. The singer is bad, and the arrangement is worse.

Sorry, but I think they received their lifetime achievement award last year.

 

[4everchan]

Just can't get past that hideous version of Long and Winding Road. The singer is bad, and the arrangement is worse.

Sorry, but I think they received their lifetime achievement award last year.

well, that's definitely your opinion. My ears appreciated that cover and its execution.

 

[litenkyckling]

I don't know how I feel about the programmes yet - but I rarely love a programme in September. I think they have potential though. I'd like to see a different lift in the RD - it's a really effective lift if she's wearing a dress as it has more of an illusion look to it but with the trousers and being able to see his hand it doesn't look as good, imo.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

You are correct, I haven't followed Piper and Paul from the beginning, so perhaps I am missing some nuances. However, I feel that it shouldn't be necessary to be familiar with a skater or team's entire back catalogue to enjoy or understand their current programs.

Perhaps 'excites' was the wrong word to pick, I meant that the program didn't immediately provoke any big reaction in me. It clearly did for you, which is wonderful; I'm sure I see and feel things in my favourites' programs that others do not necessarily see/feel, which is partly why figure skating is such a subjective sport, and this is okay. For me, their FD was well choreographed, it was pretty, expressive and well skated but it did not particularly move me or make me immediately want to watch it again. But, this was their first competition of the season, the program may well grow on me, and perhaps, with better camera work, some of the details and nuances will be more obvious.

I was worried it might be a rehash when I heard they were using another emotional ballad, covered by the same musician who created their version of Vincent. However, as you say, while this FD does reference the others, it is not just a 2.0 of either of their previous two FDs and I am pleased about this. They have done very innovative before and were not rewarded, they've now found a style that works (for them and for the judges) and are sticking to it for what I'm guessing is their final season, which is a smart decision.

Thanks for responding and for sharing your points of view. I appreciate your thoughtful response. Yes, we see the program differently because I did want to watch it again, and I have a few times.

Sure, by virtue of loving ice dance, fans should be able to appreciate skaters' current programs, without having followed their entire career. But, since the sport is subjective, perceptions and tastes vary. In terms of my experiencing a lot of emotion, I think that following P&P from the very beginning provides me and other long term P&P fans with nuanced insights into the trajectory of their career. The culmination of their journey is, I think, what their last few seasons' programs are about. Yet each of these programs are not exactly alike, even if they are similar in theme and musical genre. For me, P&P's prodigious creativity, and the intentionality and authenticity with which they skate and develop their programs, is something I find meaningful and memorable.

Of course, the technical aspects of ice dance are important, and often a chief focus for some fans. I have a general knowledge of ice dance technical requirements, but I'm not as knowledgeable in that aspect as some fans. Still, I've followed the sport for many years, so I do have a general understanding of technique, and an overall historical perspective. Again, I focus more on how moved I am by skaters and their performances. P&P have good basic skills, and their strongest suits are their creativity and performance qualities. Above all, P&P are talented and creative risk takers. They give it their all with fierce determination and dedication. Some skaters may be more technically talented, but not all talented ice dancers are across-the-board able to be as consistent, motivated and successfully idea-driven as P&P.

 

[boysoprano]

I wish this discussion about music choice linked up with the actual requirements for the rhythm Dance, because as it is, the discussion does not link up to why particular songs are chosen for Ice dance- and that choice has little to do with the age of the choreographers and more to do with the tastes of the ISU Ice Dance committee.

The required rhythm for this year's RD is the blues- a music form that is a lot older than either Carol Lane or Elton John!

Furthermore, the arrangement must meet the timing requirements for the Midnight Blues pattern dance, during both the blues pattern and the pattern step elements. (at least half the dance!)

So you should not criticize the team for picking what is actually a relatively recent blues song!

Blues goes back to the 19th century, at least

This is the governing ISU document for this season's rhythm dance:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/24923-2346-id-guidelines-for-rhythm-dance-season-2021-22/file&ved=2ahUKEwibhZjwmIfzAhXiEVkFHf9sAdcQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0OZcd-wE-NTZ8_lnLimQEE

And yes, the officials check the tempo




It is never safe to pick from your own idea of a rhythm, as penalties for using the wrong music result in a really big point loss. Teams almost always pick from the dance forms listed in the season's ISU document.

So
Funk-originated mid 60's
Swing- popular in 1930's - 1950's
Hip hop- originated in the 1970s
Jazz -late 19th-early 20th century
Disco - 1970's
Reggaeton - mid 1990's
Popping - 1970's
Krumping - 1990's

In other words, every team has to pick from musical / dance forms that originated no later than the 1990's, or suffer substantial penalties.

Criticizing them for doing so does not recognize the constraints the rules put on their choices.

Now I would quite like a team to choose from some really classic blues like 'Last Kind Word Blues" by Geeshie Wiley from the 1930's. The original recording has a lot of hisses and pops, but a cover version would likely work better for Ice dance, because a more regular tempo allows you to better demonstrate steps that earn you full credit.

RHIANNON GIDDENS - Last kind words blues (Geeshie Wiley)

Northsea Jazz Club Amsterdam, January 23, 2016

youtu.be

And no, I was not alive on the 1930's.
I heard about Wiley (and this song) in a story on the NYT in 2014

The Ballad of Geeshie and Elvie (Published 2014)

On the trail of the phantom women who changed American music and then vanished without a trace.

www.nytimes.com

So Elton John is not my blues choice because he is too recent.

I think the rhythmic choices of the technical panel aren't completely about music genre, , but about a choice from particular sets of musics with a common rhythmic base, which have and are often being reinvented, and often become different genres. So one set is latin musics commonly based or derived from the tresillo (but excluding the tango), one set is latin music that are tangos (of which there are three main rhythms), one set is waltz time musics, one set is 4/4 with stresses on the downbeat, one set is 4/4 with stresses on the upbeat, one set is syncopated rhythms etc, with added requirements with regard to tempo for the set patterns, etc etc etc.
So for example if you were to use a new genre of music, or one not mentioned (for example trip hop), as long as the rhythmic base sits with the overall intention with regard to the rhythm you are supposed to be conveying, I don't think the technical panel would have a problem. It's not so much about genre, as rhythmic base.

So yes, there are plenty of possibilities beyond the 1990 (and certainly beyond 1970) for a team to choose. Plus the isu documents sites the listed rhythms of street dance as examples: it makes clear they are not exhaustive and other and more modern rhythms/genres might be appropriate. So for example a genre that developed rhythmically from hip hop would be acceptable, but a genre in waltz time would not.

Also the required rhythm for this years rd is NOT just the blues ( in terms of music), it's any of the listed rhythms.

Plus also see Zhulin's recent comments about his conversation with Halina Gordon-Poltorak, where he reported that the blues section should lean towards the style of street dance.

Alexander Zhulin: “This style allowed us to win the World Championships, why should we change it? “

figure skating blog

fs-gossips.com

"This season the dancers have been offered a rather interesting idea to combine blues and street dance in rhythm dance. Is it hard?

Alexander Zhulin: A very unexpected idea, actually. Classic blues has a slow fluidity, it’s such a slow story. But when I talked on this topic with Galina Gordon-Poltorak (chairman of the ISU dance technical committee. – ed), she said: if we show the blues like blues, this will be reflected in a minus in the judges’ scores. Because the blues, as the specialists of the International Skating Union see it, should look like a street dance. From my point of view, blues in the format of street dance is a bit of a foreign body."

I somewhat agree with the incompatibly of the two, but I guess that's part of the challenge.

With regard to Piper and Paul, i would cut off a huge amount of I guess that's why they call it the blues, and replace it with something more street dance, and use I guess that's why they call it blues for the set pattern and partial step only. Only, within Elton John's back catalogue it's going to be a little difficult to find a suitable piece; and I think they have been hamstrung by what IS an old-fashioned choice.

As such I don't think it will stand up against the other rds we will see this season; and in terms of the street dance element the chair of the ISU dance technical committee said they are looking for, I don't think it will even register.

One thing however that does bug me about this year's requirements is the inclusion of Reggaeton. I don't see it as having a place alongside the other rhythms and I believe it was also an allowed rhythm in 2018, which would mean it was also classed by the ISU as a latin rhythm.

I think the FD is better than the RD. But overall both are what I thought we would most likely get from Carol before I knew what the choices would be. Because her choices are overwhelmingly based on music from over 40 years ago.

 

[Skatesocs]

One thing however that does bug me about this year's requirements is the inclusion of Reggaeton. I don't see it as having a place alongside the other rhythms and I believe it was also an allowed rhythm in 2018, which would mean it was also classed by the ISU as a latin rhythm.

I'm also confused how "krump" is a rhythm. I always saw it as a style of hip hop dance, not even music.

Probably agree Reggaeton shouldn't be included - guess they saw it as hip hop influenced, and felt it belonged.

 

[boysoprano]

I'm also confused how "krump" is a rhythm. I always saw it as a style of hip hop dance, not even music.

Probably agree Reggaeton shouldn't be included - guess they saw it as hip hop influenced, and felt it belonged.

I agree. also popping?
I think the tech panels choices/explanations of what they want are a bit of a mess at this point.

 

[Skatesocs]

I agree. also popping?
I think the tech panels choices/explanations of what they want are a bit of a mess at this point.

Right, "popping" is a dance style too, not music. Actually, I'll be stunned if they recognize a proper hip hop technique. It's already not easy to keep that rhythm and technique and "bounce" with your feet on the ice (let's even ignore all the ID requirements that make it impossible to include it anyway), but even when it comes to the upper body... well, let's see.

 

[boysoprano]

They want blues, but they want it street dance, but they want it done to these rhythms, except those rhythms are sometimes dancestyles, and you can also do it to latin.

Let's see, indeed....