Hanyu's technical viewpoints on judging and the path sport taking

[Lambari]

Vaguely complaining about other skaters' abilities while insisting your own technique is objectively correct and objectively worth more points -- is not constructive, at least not in my mind. It's exploiting his influences for his own gain rather than the gain of skating in general. And no matter how polite he's being about it, or how much you might personally agree with him, that is what Hanyu is doing.

I don't know how you came to that impression.

A few phrases from the first translation of the interview are:

"I was wondering whether the path I was taking was truly right" "I had always skated with the sense that steps/TR was one of the most important things and with the thought that this was my key weapon. This time, the fact that it was assesed properly gave me the confidence that this path is a good one. From here even if I do the Lutz and the Axel (probably talking about the quads), I have the conviction that I must do difficult things while continuing down this path"

From my understanding the way he put it shows more doubt than actually blind conviction that your own ways are the only one. Of course he has pride in his preferred way and what he's known for but he was more than willing to adapt if it was necessary, hence why he said he contemplated removing transitions to improve jump consistency. Skaters recognize the judging trends and one that has been more noticeable lately is that jumps with higher base value are usually given higher GOE. We see it both in men and in ladies with the rise of higher base value quads. His score at Skate Canada as he said gave him reassurance that even without having these jumps at the moment (4F/4Lz) he could still receive high GOE based on the quality of his elements. That's why if he ever includes other quads like the 4Lz and or even a 4A he wouldn't need to do it at the expense of transitions.

If anything I find it remarkable that he has always been open to the media about eventual struggles with confidence and self doubt.

Vaguely complaining about other skaters' abilities

I also don't see how he's vaguely complaining about any skater's ability in that interview. Another excerpt of it is "each and every skater has their own unique abilities". He merely states his views on the judging trends and how he is taking it into account to adapt his own skating in order to win while at the same time trying to not abandon completely his preferred ways.

 

[Interspectator]

Translation doesn’t seem clear, is he saying that some overly PR 4Lz are actually not lutz jumps? If so, there really are only so many skaters attempting 4Lz.

This is the one sentence in the interview in which the meaning is not really clear. I'm not sure what is meant. The sentence seems to hang in between the sentence of Hanyu talking about his own jumping style, and then talking about how each skater has their individuality and that the scoring system is made to take that into account.

Even reading the text in Japanese...
Unsure.

 

[TallyT]

This is the one sentence in the interview in which the meaning is not really clear. I'm not sure what is meant. The sentence seems to hang in between the sentence of Hanyu talking about his own jumping style, and then talking about how each skater has their individuality and that the scoring system is made to take that into account.

Unsure.

I've seen three different translations from Japanese and one from Chinese (Yuzu has a huge Chinese following so yeah, it got translated to Chinese and then through to English As She Is Spoke) and it seems really hard to clarify in English exactly what he means. I will say, had he not had the resounding triumph in Canada, I doubt we would have heard a word of this and even in translation, the way he makes it all "I thought maybe I was wrong" rather than "the judges are wrong" is very Yuzu.

(Contrast it to when he thinks he was overscored, his blunt words in the 2015 interview with Kenji are wonderfully self-NOT-congratulatory)

The last few days have been a really interesting time to be a Yuzuru fan.

 

[denise3lz]

Hanyu actually said "I am studying skaters like Akatieva" on Russian junior ladies.

@axelsandwich omitted the entire question
@Iron_Klaus omitted her name (because she is younger than 13 ?).

 

[Arbitrary]

4Lz was attempted many times before COP. Some succeeded, some less so. When COP introduced ISU gave 4Lz the highest BV among "basic" quads to make guys happy.
4Lo "looks" more difficult just because skaters decided to learn it at the later time. Much later.

 

[Interspectator]

Hanyu actually said "I am studying skaters like Akatieva" on Russian junior ladies.

@axelsandwich omitted the entire question
@Iron_Klaus omitted her name (because she is younger than 13 ?).

I admit, I don't follow juniors at all...Yuzu knows the names of skaters I've never even heard of.

 

[eaglehelang]

Well, as the 2X OG Champ Yuzuru does need to say something abt the inconsistent judging. To uphold the integrity of the sport.
As in from +GOE to -GOE depending on who is the skater and judges.
Yuzuru's same exact jump can hv a +4GOE in SP and suddenly deemed UR in the LP.

These kind of inconsistency is not tolerated in other sports, Olympic sports.
Athletes have spoken up, including Asian athletes, cos getting less than expected results could means they lose funding. Their coaches & association are expected to fight against unfairness(which many vigorously do), not just bear with it.

Hence when we see this, its a <facepalm> & <shakehead>. Bye2 to creating more interest in FS among non skating countries.

 

[yume]

My unpopular opinions in which I disagree with hugely popular skaters both past and present, let me show you them (because clearly, I have no sense of self-preservation).

He sounds like he's finally getting old. It reminds me of the types of things late-career Plushenko, Patrick Chan, or Fernandez said. When you're a young up-and-coming skater you might have issues with rules and judging, but you're determined to exploit the rules as they are, beat the judges and the competition over their heads, and advance to the elite ranks, which is exactly what Hanyu did back in the day. But when skaters (especially top skaters) get older and start losing to younger skaters or start receiving scores they do not believe they should have received, they tend to start complaining about rules and judging being wrong.

Usually, the reality is that rules and judges and scores now are not more or less wrong than they were "back in the day". They're just different and put importance on different things. Currently, importance is put on exploring how to best achieve multiple types of quads. This is the reason for the new zayak rule (they got tired of seeing 4T almost exclusively), less of a scrutiny on takeoff, and giving away GOE like candy on high-BV elements. In the past, importance was placed on how to achieve higher quality in individual elements. This was the reason for frankly ridiculous DG rules, incredibly strict GOE, and importance placed on TR in and out of jumps. Neither is more or less "fair" or "correct". They're aiming to achieve different outcomes. Hanyu's style was developed to fit the past standards, and he did incredibly well with it! But that doesn't make those past standards objectively more "correct" (I, for one, despised them, and I was fed up with men's skating between 2010 and recently). When multiple quads have been achieved, ISU will likely swing its pendulum back towards more strict control, possibly even introduce "pre-rotation" into the rules.

You can see what older skaters tend to do in two ways: they have less to lose now and therefore more freedom to go against the judges and officials, or they are losing perspective of how they themselves rose to the top and are complaining about younger skaters doing exactly what they themselves did back then (i.e. aligning themselves with the rules and judging standards as they are). Usually it's both. What I think about Hanyu is what I thought of Fernandez when he complained about his UR call and "pre-rotations": they might be right or they might be wrong, but that's pretty irrelevant to me; if they truly feel strongly about "fairness", please become officials who will defend other skaters and make things more "fair" for future skaters. That would be incredibly constructive and I welcome it. Vaguely complaining about other skaters' abilities while insisting your own technique is objectively correct and objectively worth more points -- is not constructive, at least not in my mind. It's exploiting his influences for his own gain rather than the gain of skating in general. And no matter how polite he's being about it, or how much you might personally agree with him, that is what Hanyu is doing.

Also, the things he says about his own transitions are not true. Comparing his programs to when he first skated them, he has taken out transitions in and out of elements, so that sounds mostly like politiking on his part, PR to influence how people view his skating. Not to mention he's still getting incredibly high scores after taking out transitions, so I can't really say he's being treated unfairly compared to others. (Also, Orser and TCC know perfectly well what the current trends in judging are and have already stopped focusing on TR. Orser would never say what Hanyu is saying here, he has much more of a long-term view of skating and judging trends.)

P.S. But I'm not surprised this is the direction Hanyu headed. It was expected since that time he said 4Lo should have a higher BV. Again, I truly believe he should join the technical committee and work to make it happen if he truly believes that's more fair for future skaters.

Well, i don't see any complaining or pride (because what you said sounds like he was arrogant).

I see an assessment. An assessment that said that judges seem to value more layouts with the most difficult jumps, and that those jumps are well rewarded when landed cleanly, no matter how they are executed.

Next is the questionning. He was wondering if his strategy of doing less difficult jumps with high quality execution was the right strategy. Or should he do like other skaters and go for the hardest jumps.
Then when he got his marks at SC he saw that his strategy can work well even if he will still practice harder jumps.
That's it.

I understand than anything else than "i will work harder to improve my scores" is seen like whining.


And complaining about other skater abilities....when he knows that Akatieva who never competed internationally, exists and does quads and want to study her and other females technique.

 

[yude]

This is the one sentence in the interview in which the meaning is not really clear. I'm not sure what is meant. The sentence seems to hang in between the sentence of Hanyu talking about his own jumping style, and then talking about how each skater has their individuality and that the scoring system is made to take that into account.

Even reading the text in Japanese...
Unsure.

When I first read these interviews, I didn't even understand he was talking about pre-rotation, like what do you mean by "rotate in low position"? This article is very difficult to translate indeed.

I don't feel he is "complaining" about anything, but I am not surprised some people in this forum take his words as complaints. After all, he just spoke up his opinions which had been always in his mind, but will not change his skating style at this point while aiming for 4Lz and 4A.

 

[GoodMorningGrapeseed]

I think he will retire before the next Olympics, body can’t keep up physically compared to the younger ones and the programs are getting stale.

And he can take all of ISU's money with him

 

[moonkat]

No, Yuzuru already has the GOAT title. He just doesn't like the direction the ISU is heading. One that continues to judge unfairly. They want figure skating to be exciting and competitive, so they will judge in a way that makes it happen.
Transitions in an out of jumps are beautiful and they make the jump a part of the program instead of an inturruption in an otherwise "artistic" program.

PCS is a power-ranking score actually.

 

[DSQ]

In no part of his interview does he complain about younger skaters not even indirectly.

I mean that’s just not true, the “pre rotation” comment was just that. Perhaps not necessarily just about younger skaters but it was a very nice and polite way of pointing out his technique against a winning technique of others that he disapproves of. Many will agree with him, others will exploit this vagueness of the judges - that’s skating.

I respect Hanyu standing up for the way he wants to sport to be, i wish more did this publicly, but it’s definitely a little political.

I think skating, despite what the rules say, is very subjective. How much the judges want to reward transitions and punish less than perfect technique is a personal preference, as strange as it sounds to say that. You can see this with Mishin as a coach. It’s clear that he’d rather a great jump even if that means sacrificing transitions.

I hope though that even is some might not agree 100% I would love to hear more about his opinions since we don’t often get to hear it.

 

[Farnaz]

Generally, I think it is so good to hear the opinions of elite athletes about their sport regardless of us being agreed or disagreed with them :agree2: It brings forth more transparency in the sport and helps it moving to better places :agree:

 

[champagnerain]

This is the one sentence in the interview in which the meaning is not really clear. I'm not sure what is meant. The sentence seems to hang in between the sentence of Hanyu talking about his own jumping style, and then talking about how each skater has their individuality and that the scoring system is made to take that into account.

Even reading the text in Japanese...
Unsure.

I also re-read that sentence in Japanese at least 10 times, and I still couldn't figure out exactly what he meant, either.

Darn Japanese for being such a high-context language...

 

[RobinA]

My unpopular opinions in which I disagree with hugely popular skaters both past and present, let me show you them (because clearly, I have no sense of self-preservation).

He sounds like he's finally getting old. It reminds me of the types of things late-career Plushenko, Patrick Chan, or Fernandez said. When you're a young up-and-coming skater you might have issues with rules and judging, but you're determined to exploit the rules as they are, beat the judges and the competition over their heads, and advance to the elite ranks, which is exactly what Hanyu did back in the day. But when skaters (especially top skaters) get older and start losing to younger skaters or start receiving scores they do not believe they should have received, they tend to start complaining about rules and judging being wrong.

Usually, the reality is that rules and judges and scores now are not more or less wrong than they were "back in the day". They're just different and put importance on different things. Currently, importance is put on exploring how to best achieve multiple types of quads. This is the reason for the new zayak rule (they got tired of seeing 4T almost exclusively), less of a scrutiny on takeoff, and giving away GOE like candy on high-BV elements. In the past, importance was placed on how to achieve higher quality in individual elements. This was the reason for frankly ridiculous DG rules, incredibly strict GOE, and importance placed on TR in and out of jumps. Neither is more or less "fair" or "correct". They're aiming to achieve different outcomes. Hanyu's style was developed to fit the past standards, and he did incredibly well with it! But that doesn't make those past standards objectively more "correct" (I, for one, despised them, and I was fed up with men's skating between 2010 and recently). When multiple quads have been achieved, ISU will likely swing its pendulum back towards more strict control, possibly even introduce "pre-rotation" into the rules.

You can see what older skaters tend to do in two ways: they have less to lose now and therefore more freedom to go against the judges and officials, or they are losing perspective of how they themselves rose to the top and are complaining about younger skaters doing exactly what they themselves did back then (i.e. aligning themselves with the rules and judging standards as they are). Usually it's both. What I think about Hanyu is what I thought of Fernandez when he complained about his UR call and "pre-rotations": they might be right or they might be wrong, but that's pretty irrelevant to me; if they truly feel strongly about "fairness", please become officials who will defend other skaters and make things more "fair" for future skaters. That would be incredibly constructive and I welcome it. Vaguely complaining about other skaters' abilities while insisting your own technique is objectively correct and objectively worth more points -- is not constructive, at least not in my mind. It's exploiting his influences for his own gain rather than the gain of skating in general. And no matter how polite he's being about it, or how much you might personally agree with him, that is what Hanyu is doing.

Also, the things he says about his own transitions are not true. Comparing his programs to when he first skated them, he has taken out transitions in and out of elements, so that sounds mostly like politiking on his part, PR to influence how people view his skating. Not to mention he's still getting incredibly high scores after taking out transitions, so I can't really say he's being treated unfairly compared to others. (Also, Orser and TCC know perfectly well what the current trends in judging are and have already stopped focusing on TR. Orser would never say what Hanyu is saying here, he has much more of a long-term view of skating and judging trends.)

P.S. But I'm not surprised this is the direction Hanyu headed. It was expected since that time he said 4Lo should have a higher BV. Again, I truly believe he should join the technical committee and work to make it happen if he truly believes that's more fair for future skaters.

I must be on a different planet. I watched Skate Canada last night and I saw him do an LP that at this time can probably not be beaten, so I'm not sure where he is not keeping up. He had some glitches, but so did Nathan at SA, the only guy who has a chance of beating him. And this at the beginning of the season. Is there some young guy lurking out there I'm not aware of?

 

[Ophelia]

I think he will retire before the next Olympics, body can’t keep up physically compared to the younger ones and the programs are getting stale.

No other male skater has been atop for so long besides Plushenko.

 

[skatergurl7]

No other male skater has been atop for so long besides Plushenko.

Love Yuzu, I think he’s a stunning skater. But he’s not bringing anything new to the table now. And because of his ankle injuries a lot of his landings look sloppy. He should let the younger generation take over and give them a chance, go out on top.

 

[Ulrica]

Love Yuzu, I think he’s a stunning skater. But he’s not bringing anything new to the table now. And because of his ankle injuries a lot of his landings look sloppy. He should let the younger generation take over and give them a chance, go out on top.

He has the WR score on SP, no one has been able to top his historical WRs with the new score system, he has the highest SP, FP and Combined Total Scores of the season so far. He was the first one to land 4Tlp-3axel last season, and just this weekend was the first to land 4Tlp-3Flip, which also happens to be the highest scored combo of the season. He has the highest scored 3axel and quad of both this and the past season. But sure, he is not contributing anything to the sport, he should retire already.

 

[sydney]

Love Yuzu, I think he’s a stunning skater. But he’s not bringing anything new to the table now. And because of his ankle injuries a lot of his landings look sloppy. He should let the younger generation take over and give them a chance, go out on top.

I will never understand this kind of mentality I'm sorry, this is a sport, this guy just landed a new combination never done before, he's chasing the 4A and some people are saying that he doesn't bring anything new anymore, watching the younger skaters I have to say that not a lot of them are bringing 'something new' to the sport right now. Also to 'give them a chance' ?? If they want their chance there is one thing to do : training, developing their skating/jump skills and trying to reach his level . For me THAT is sport, and not waiting for your rival or concurrent to just retire.

 

[yume]

Love Yuzu, I think he’s a stunning skater. But he’s not bringing anything new to the table now. And because of his ankle injuries a lot of his landings look sloppy. He should let the younger generation take over and give them a chance, go out on top.

Their layouts and judging give them enough chances already.