Hanyu's technical viewpoints on judging and the path sport taking

[Farnaz]

Saying that any athlete in any sport should retire so the rest can get on the podium basically means that "He is so better than the rest of the field that no one can catch him". Just saying

 

[Alexz]

Hanyu actually said "I am studying skaters like Akatieva" on Russian junior ladies.

@axelsandwich omitted the entire question
@Iron_Klaus omitted her name (because she is younger than 13 ?).

@Iron_Klaus is usually a rather trustworthy translator.

@axelsandwich was noticed many time before in using Yuzuru's interview for throwing shade on those he/she doesn't like. She/he tend to translate Japanese articles and interviews in a very "specific" way sometimes. I think this is a bit disrespectful to Hanyu. So...

Both are Hanyu's uberfans.

 

[TallyT]

Yes yes, we know, we know. He's bringing nothing new... except a laundry list of firsts and bests in just one competition. As I understand it from people who like to keep lists -

• Again the only man to top 320 in the GPF (third time, thankee)
• Again the only man to top 109.50 in the short program (sixth time, thankee)
• Highest PCS ever in the SP
• Highest PCS ever in the FS
• First fully ratified 4T-1Eu-3F
• Highest margin of victory (59.82)
• Highest ever (changed to GOE) single element (3A, SP)
• Highest ever scoring element (4T-1Eu-3F, FS)

The younger ones have their chance to do all of the above laundry list, Yuzu ain't stopping them is he? So what's with the sour persimmons?

For chrissake, most sports would sacrifice virgin plushie GOATS by the supertankerload (and anything else they could think of) to have their 2OGM/biggest superstar keep going, let alone keep raising his own bar the way ours does.

{Ahem} Back to the topic at hand... the positive thing I got from Yuzuru's interview is that he does think that the scores from SC show he probably doesn't have to compromise on what matters to him (which is not new but more and more perfect programs, funny thing that his core native audience agree with him). Good news for his fans and the sport.

 

[lzxnl]

Wait...how is his 3A the highest scoring element? What about Nathan's +4 GOE 4F, or even any of Yuzuru's other quads? Surely they score above 12? Unless you mean highest GOE

 

[yume]

For chrissake, most sports would sacrifice virgin plushie GOATS by the supertankerload (and anything else they could think of) to have their 2OGM/biggest superstar keep going, let alone keep raising his own bar the way ours does.
.

 

[oatmella]

Highest scoring single jump is Nathan’s 4Lz at 2019 Worlds with a score of 16.26, and 4.76 total GOE as the highest ever on a jump.

Yuzu’s 3A has the highest mean GOE.

 

[TallyT]

Wait...how is his 3A the highest scoring element? What about Nathan's +4 GOE 4F, or even any of Yuzuru's other quads? Surely they score above 12? Unless you mean highest GOE

Mea culpa, I went back and rechecked my source (I did say 'from people who like lists') and they said in the loooooong comment section that they should have worded it highest GOE score (so close to 5), not absolute score. You are right, Nathan has the highest actual score in his impressive laundry list. Which begs the question, maybe skatergurl17 thinks Nathan should also retire and let other skaters have the podium? I doubt he would agree... and the ISU do not want to lose either of them.

My apologies, and thanks for the challenge.

 

[1111bm]

But I can't say I believe he actually changed things with SC though. High difficult jumps from big named skaters will continue to be rewarded with GOE even if they aren't landed all that well.

This.
I think it’s pretty clear why he got the score that he did, and it’s not ISU back-paddling and volte-facing.

I mean, obviously I can’t know for sure and all of us have to wait and see what happens throughout the next months, since it’s still early in the season. But I think it’s way more likely that it was the combined effect of a two-time olympian with a big reputation, a seasoned competitor and performer, putting out two impressive programs with lots of different quads and no major mistakes, skating in a, let’s be honest, pretty weak field with no actual competition, where his skills would in sheer contrast look even more impressive than they already are, at a competition that took place in the home country of his coaching team at that.

I’m also constantly amused at people talking about the ISU and judges like they’re one entity with one mind, plotting and scheming for or against certain skaters.

I also disagree with those who admire the polite way that Yuzu addressed these issues in. For me personally, this actually makes it worse, because of its backhanded nature. And it always feels like it’s just a way to protect yourself, make you less vulnerable to attack and easier to backtrack. I hate it when people do this in my everyday life, so it also rubs me the wrong way when Yuzu uses this strategy.
Although in Yuzu’s case it might just as well be a cultural thing, I mean, I wouldn’t know, just guessing. Plus, I’m basing my impression on a fan translation and obviously I have no way of knowing how his words and phrasing come across in his native language.

Also, the things he says about his own transitions are not true. Comparing his programs to when he first skated them, he has taken out transitions in and out of elements…

Very true, I thought the same thing, where I doubt that he actually, thruthfully met his own, old standards at Skate Canada, at least not in his FS (can’t argue with his SP of course lol).
He didn’t exactly show a lot of noteworthy footwork into his jumps, except for 1 maybe 2 jumping passes I believe, and the rest were mostly set-ups with maybe an extra mohawk and a crossover thrown in there.

Obviously that’s still more than many others do, and we have to take into consideration the difficulty of his jumping passes, but it’s less elaborate relative to how he used to do it in the past (for instance, from what I recall he used to do so many beautiful set-ups for his 4T like choctaws or double 3turns for example).

What he still showed us and what he’s always been great at, if not unique, is the way he goes into his quads with little to no hesitation, does everything in quick succession and that moment where a skater collects him-/herself before jumping is very short in his case (but I don’t think that was his point in the interview?).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If Hanyu views transitions as his main weapon that's totally cool. And I love that he challenges himself with unique, difficult jump entries. But the reality is, transitions affect only a marginal portion of the total score. If he's had issues with the judges' GOE scoring based on transitions in and out, then his perception of the extent to which transitions garner better GOE is rather aggrandized (like many skating fans who love to consider transitions as king) compared to what the judging system actually awards.

Refer to the GOE table/jump bullets... with 4) being the transition bullet: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...-and-guidelines-for-marking-goe-2019-20/file:
1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
2) good take-off and landing
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) very good body position from take-off to landing
6) element matches the music

Things to note:

1) Jump transitions are not worth much when it comes to GOE. Transitions into a jump (creative entry/steps) are worth merely 1 GOE bullet. And it's not even a bolded/major GOE bullet. Which means that if your jump does not have great height/distance AND great takeoff/landing AND is effortless throughout, it doesn't matter how hard or how many transitions you have going into it, you won't get higher than a +3. (And in the past, entry transitions only contributed 1 GOE bullet out of 8 and creative exit transitions were just 1 bullet... which means your overall GOE would be increased by +1, if you did both; so it's not like entry+exit transitions were historically a whole lot either).

2) The benefit of including an entry transition can be easily negated by other errors on the jump which factor into a judge's GOE (creative entry being worth only 1 bullet, and there being several areas for deduction/reduction of GOE). For example, Hanyu's 4L at SCI2019 was on a lean, had a scratchy landing and a turn out. At best, he would have earned bullets #1/4/6, and then the lean (-1 to -3) and poor landing + turn out (-2/-3) would have negated that. So really, the highest GOE he should have gotten was 0 (LOL @ the judge who gave it a +3). The current IJS does a better job of emphasis quality of bigger, effortless, well taken off/landed jumps over things like preceding steps or musical structure, which to me is a step forward. A skater, of course, can choose to add transitions to add that bullet -- but it's a senseless idea to include them if it's compromising the success rate of the jump and more valuable bullets like very good height/distance or good takeoff/landing. If a jump was even slightly shaky, then it's not effortless which loses that bullet and any potential for a +4 or +5... so unless you're sure you can execute a jump effortlessly with a transition going into it, it's probably not worth it. Effortlessness is also very subjective too, so a jump that looks effortless to one judge/fan may look different to another.

3) You don't get more points for harder entry transitions. So for e.g. while a counter into 3A entry is very difficult, according to the rules it still earns the same GOE bullet as a bracket/spread eagle/double3/quick toe steps/etc. going into a 3A. Kind of goes back to that height/distance discussion from a while ago --- the highest/farthest jumper does not get more points for doing so, rather everyone who achieves a subjectively "sufficiently" very good height/length is awarded that GOE bullet. It's a checkbox.

4) Exit transitions are now worth nothing when it comes to GOE. They can of course increase the TR PCS mark but a skater should not expect their jump's score to be higher by incorporating a creative exit, now that the rules have been modified to only award a bullet to entry transitions.

 

[1111bm]

If he's had issues with the judges' GOE scoring based on transitions in and out, then his perception of transitions bolstering GOE is rather aggrandized (like many skating fans who love to consider transitions as king) compared to what the judging system actually awards.

Refer to the GOE table/jump bullets: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...-and-guidelines-for-marking-goe-2019-20/file:
1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
2) good take-off and landing
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) very good body position from take-off to landing
6) element matches the music

Things to note:

1) Jump transitions are not worth much when it comes to GOE. Transitions into a jump (creative entry/steps) are worth merely 1 GOE bullet. And it's not even a bolded/major GOE bullet. Which means that if your jump does not have great height/distance AND great takeoff/landing AND is effortless throughout, it doesn't matter how hard or how many transitions you have going into it, you won't get higher than a +3. (And in the past, entry transitions only contributed 1 GOE bullet out of 8 and creative exit transitions were just 1 bullet... which means your overall GOE would be increased by +1, if you did both; so it's not like entry+exit transitions were historically a whole lot either).

2) The benefit of including an entry transition can be easily negated by other errors on the jump which factor into a judge's GOE (creative entry being worth only 1 bullet, and there being several areas for deduction/reduction of GOE). For example, Hanyu's 4L at SCI2019 was on a lean, had a scratchy landing and a turn out. At best, he would have earned bullets #1/4/6, and then the lean (-1 to -3) and poor landing + turn out (-2/-3) would have negated that. So really, the highest GOE he should have gotten was 0 (LOL @ the judge who gave it a +3). The current IJS does a better job of emphasis quality of bigger, effortless, well taken off/landed jumps over things like preceding steps or musical structure, which to me is a step forward. A skater, of course, can choose to add transitions to add that bullet -- but it's a senseless idea to include them if it's compromising the success rate of the jump and more valuable bullets like height/distance or a more effortless-looking execution.

3) You don't get more points for harder entry transitions. So for e.g. while a counter into 3A entry is very difficult, according to the rules it still earns the same GOE bullet as a bracket/spread eagle/double3/quick toe steps/etc. going into a 3A. Kind of goes back to that height/distance discussion from a while ago --- the highest/farthest jumper does not get more points for doing so, rather everyone who achieves a subjectively "sufficiently" very good height/length is awarded that GOE bullet. It's a checkbox.

4) Exit transitions are now worth nothing when it comes to GOE. They can of course increase the TR PCS mark but a skater should not expect their jump's score to be higher because of a creative exit now that the rules have changed.

I genuinely hope that ISU values the opinion of their superstar and from here on look more carefully at those bullet points when awarding GOE.

I’d say transitions in or out of jumps count more towards the PCS side of judging.

And I totally agree with CanadianSkaterGuy here and was actually gonna post the same, that in terms of GOE, there is actually only one bullet that mentions steps before a jump/creative entry, so that’s just one GOE point, which doesn’t mean that much when the jump itself turns out rather badly.
I too have noticed that many fans falsely believe that steps out of a jump are still a GOE bullet, which simply isn't true and means that once again they would only count towards a skater's PCS.
‚Correct‘ take-off/picking technique on a Lutz could maybe, in theory, count towards the ‚good take-off and landing‘ bullet, but I doubt that it does in the judges' minds.

And I honestly believe it is not humanly possible to go through all those bullet points in your head (for both + and - GOE) for each element and do the math when awarding GOE in such a short amount of time that the judges have, while at the same time also taking in the performance and skating to be able to judge the PCS in the end of a program. I’m pretty sure judges are just scoring based on a gut feeling or their overall impression in a given moment.

So no, I don't think it is as easy as 'looking at GOE bullets more carefully'.

 

[gkelly]

Yes, it's true that the contribution of transitions to jump (or spin) GOE is negligible, as you describe.

However, a variety of difficult and high-quality transitions throughout the program, with continuous movement throughout and no telegraphing, will also affect not only the Transitions component but also probably Skating Skills, Performance, and Composition. (And also Interpretation if they go with the music, but it's certainly possible to have varied and high-quality transitions unrelated to the music.)

 

[FCSSp4]

Surprised people don't think Yuzuru Hanyu, 2x Olympic champion and holder of majority of FS world records didn't consider all this rebuttal most of you are posting. Why did you think he had doubts in his mind about the way he skates? It's exactly this logic that the judges perpetuate that he took into heart. SC was his last shot at trying all his TR and if he would be scored the same in ACI he would switch strategies and do what the others are doing, less transitions and steps for more consistency and bigger more impressive jumps. He even reached a point where he thought he'd just do the 4A and retire.

The fact that he's speaking up should be taken as a sign, not of his own insecurities but as a genuine effort to improve the sport. He's had nothing but complimentary and respectful things to say about other skaters especially the young ones. If he wanted to politick so bad he'd have done it before Pyeongchang or even Saitama but he didn't. And frankly he would've done it in a skate where he'd feel undermarked, but no-- Yuzuru gave this interview after being scored well in Canada because his voice isn't his alone but for other skaters who may not have the same clout or presence as he does. Just because HE can benefit from the system doesn't mean others, especially lower level or younger skaters have to put up with the inconsistent judging that's been happening in the last few seasons.

Interesting how many of you chose to attack his skating and character to the point of assigning intent to his words. Are you people even really interested in what he has to say or just feel like arguing for the sake of it without really assessing his words. Seems like for someone who's done a lot of the sport, he isn't respected enough in this forum. You seem to have a lot of faith in ISU, an organization that got talked into holding an awards show instead of a gala and managed to lose money at an Olympic year.

 

[TontoK]

Saying that any athlete in any sport should retire so the rest can get on the podium basically means that "He is so better than the rest of the field that no one can catch him". Just saying

Oh my goodness. I overlooked that statement.

I've always been a fan of the true sportsman. The guy who says, "If you beat me, I salute you. But, you're going to have to beat me. I'm not giving it to you."

Edit: It's one of the reasons I think Nathan and Hanyu respect each other in a way that some of their ignoramus fans don't. Both these guys know how hard the other is working. And, because they're pushing each other so hard, we're getting to see some amazing skating.

 

[Interspectator]

On the whole though, for one reason or another, the mens' field is not as packed as it seemed leading to the last Olympics. This season in particular has some of the most promising young challengers temporarily sidelined or not doing so well yet.
young'uns there is room to advance, step it up! :agree:
If either Nathan or Yuzu did not compete this season for any reason it would be pretty bleak.

I just want them to train smart, stay healthy and complete the season strong.

Back to the topic of this interview, it occurred to me that this interview may look like a sudden bout of communicative-ness on the part of Yuzuru, but this is just one of the interviews he always gives after each competition. They are all detailed and interesting, but not always shared in the main page on the Edge. -And this one covers the topic of how judging has affected his choices this season, which he doesn't usually address directly and a topic much discussed here so I guess it stands out. But many times in the past, (even at this seasons' ACI) TV and interviewers will hand him his protocol sheet and ask him to do an analysis. Those are always interesting.

 

[alexaa]

Oh my goodness. I overlooked that statement.

I've always been a fan of the true sportsman. The guy who says, "If you beat me, I salute you. But, you're going to have to beat me. I'm not giving it to you."

Edit: It's one of the reasons I think Nathan and Hanyu respect each other in a way that some of their ignoramus fans don't. Both these guys know how hard the other is working. And, because they're pushing each other so hard, we're getting to see some amazing skating.

They do respect each other. Nathan admires Yuzuru actually. But I don’t understand why fan wars and Nathan fans are in this response. I don’t think any Nathan fan thinks Yuzuru is the reason/cause of him not on the podium. Nathan said repeatedly Yuzuru pushed him forward. If Nathan is not on the podium or doesn’t get the medal he wants, then he needs to work harder to get it.

That post is awful to read. No one should retire just to create opportunities to younger ones. They should earn their opportunities.

Since this thread is about Yuzuru’s viewpoints about this sport, let’s keep the conversations to OP intended.

 

[TallyT]

Oh my goodness. I overlooked that statement.

I've always been a fan of the true sportsman. The guy who says, "If you beat me, I salute you. But, you're going to have to beat me. I'm not giving it to you."

Edit: It's one of the reasons I think Nathan and Hanyu respect each other in a way that some of their ignoramus fans don't. Both these guys know how hard the other is working. And, because they're pushing each other so hard, we're getting to see some amazing skating.

This is so true. We can read their comments on each other, born of great respect and in depth knowledge and experience from watching and competing with each other.

Back to the topic of this interview, it occurred to me that this interview may look like a sudden bout of communicative-ness on the part of Yuzuru, but this is just one of the interviews he always gives after each competition. They are all detailed and interesting, but not always shared in the main page on the Edge. -And this one covers the topic of how judging has affected his choices this season, which he doesn't usually address directly and a topic much discussed here so I guess it stands out. But many times in the past, (even at this seasons' ACI) TV and interviewers will hand him his protocol sheet and ask him to do an analysis. Those are always interesting.

I still giggle at the memory of one press conference (I think it was him, Boyang and Mura) where Yuzu got so enthused about one question he talked - and talked - and talked - and then there was no time for any more questions and his headdesk and apologies was hysterical

 

[champagnerain]

I also disagree with those who admire the polite way that Yuzu addressed these issues in. For me personally, this actually makes it worse, because of its backhanded nature. And it always feels like it’s just a way to protect yourself, make you less vulnerable to attack and easier to backtrack. I hate it when people do this in my everyday life, so it also rubs me the wrong way when Yuzu uses this strategy.
Although in Yuzu’s case it might just as well be a cultural thing, I mean, I wouldn’t know, just guessing. Plus, I’m basing my impression on a fan translation and obviously I have no way of knowing how his words and phrasing come across in his native language.

I obviously can't speak for Hanyu and his intentions, but I would definitely agree that saying things indirectly in order to try to be polite/avoid hurting people's feelings is very common in Japanese society. For a little anecdote that might illustrate this: when I used to live in Japan, if someone would ask me if I liked something that in reality I dislike very much (let's say "natto," a Japanese fermented soybean dish that smells terrible ), I tended to answer, "Well, I don't hate it, but..." rather than directly admit I disliked it. Japanese people constantly remarked on how quintessentially Japanese that answer was, and after saying something like that, I was often told, "You're more Japanese than Japanese people" and/or "Your soul is Japanese." (Mostly this was probably because they didn't realize how straightforward and mean I can be when speaking English!).

Clearly, even among Japanese people, there are differences regarding how direct people are willing to be, but from the interviews I've read and seen (with the caveat that I don't follow his remarks obsessively, but catch them occasionally when they show up on Youtube/when I would sometimes see him on Japanese TV back in the day), he very much does seem as though he's trying to be careful with his words in order to avoid being rude, and he tends to use very polite and humble language. That kind of thing can definitely come across as a bit of a backhanded insult outside of Japanese society (and some people can be very talented at backhanded insults in Japanese!), but his remarks don't come across that way to me as a Japanese speaker.

Just my two cents.

 

[maryeli]

Messi made a rather scathing comment about the organizers of the South American Cup and he was sanctioned ... a skater who disagreed with his scores in a tournament, throws negative comments to the judges and gets more flattering scores in his next competition. .. oh well, but he has so many world titles and olympics that give him the right to voice and vote, after all it is the ISU and this is figure skating

 

[katymay]

4Lz was attempted many times before COP. Some succeeded, some less so. When COP introduced ISU gave 4Lz the highest BV among "basic" quads to make guys happy.
4Lo "looks" more difficult just because skaters decided to learn it at the later time. Much later.

4L0 is way more difficult then the 4L. The lutz you can use speed,(in assistance to the vault) the loop you really can't. I doubt many will land the 4Lo, far more will land the 4Lutz. The 4loop depends upon pure lift, and few can do this.

 

[Lambari]

Messi made a rather scathing comment about the organizers of the South American Cup and he was sanctioned ... a skater who disagreed with his scores in a tournament, throws negative comments to the judges and gets more flattering scores in his next competition. .. oh well, but he has so many world titles and olympics that give him the right to voice and vote, after all it is the ISU and this is figure skating

I don't see how Messi's situation is comparable here. Searching about it Messi specifically called out corruption claiming that a game was rigged. Assessing judging trends as it is done at this interview isn't equal as accusations of corruption. These trends could have been put in place to stimulate certain aspects of the sport. In this case giving higher GOE to higher base value quads could be an attempt to double reward difficulty. If someone approves or not this direction depends on opinion and if there will be an official statement corroborating or condemning this trend is unknown, but there's no accusation by him in this interview that this trend could be a product of corruption, regardless of how specific fans feel about it, just the acknowledgement that it exists and his opinion on it.

Since you mentioned about scores in a previous competition, here's what he said about Autumn Classics when japanese media asked him to comment on his free skate protocol. However the interview posted at this thread was given after Skate Canada.

About the matter of disagreeing with scores, maybe it could be interesting to have a system similar to artistic gymnastics where a skater could protest their scores but I don't know how practical it would be in skating given the time constraints and other factors.