How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?

[Mathman]

We seem to be long on opinions on this thread, but short on practical proposals as to what the ISU (or anyone) might do to improve safety in the sport. Here is my offering.

There is no reason why helmets for pairs skaters cannot be chic, fashionable, cute and cool, as well as lightweight and functional. Here are some bicycle helmets (the third one costs $4.50 at Walmart – and you can still have your hair flowing in the breeze as you zoom across the ice).

https://images.ibspot.com/e1lqsx9uy4gg54meomb8ll26m2ca?width=800&height=800&format=webp

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1330/8683/files/Straw-Hat-Bike-Helmet-755-x-755.jpg?v=1554241487

https://i5.walmartimages.com/seo/Dg....jpeg?odnHeight=640&odnWidth=640&odnBg=FFFFFF

 

[Diana Delafield]

We seem to be long on opinions on this thread, but short on practical proposals as to what the ISU (or anyone) might do to improve safety in the sport. Here is my offering.

There is no reason why helmets for pairs skaters cannot be chic, fashionable, cute and cool, as well as lightweight and functional. Here are some bicycle helmets (the third one costs $4.50 at Walmart – and you can still have your hair flowing in the breeze as you zoom across the ice).

https://images.ibspot.com/e1lqsx9uy4gg54meomb8ll26m2ca?width=800&height=800&format=webp

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1330/8683/files/Straw-Hat-Bike-Helmet-755-x-755.jpg?v=1554241487

https://i5.walmartimages.com/seo/Dg....jpeg?odnHeight=640&odnWidth=640&odnBg=FFFFFF

Um. Maybe might want to watch pairs skating more closely? I looked at those pictures and a chill ran down my spine. Cyclists don't do their thing with their head whipping an inch past someone else's face. I can think of half a dozen elements where those hats would smack the man in the face and knock him off balance as his head snapped back to avoid getting those brims in the eye. And death spirals? Catching the brim on the ice? No, thanks. I suspect ice dancers would say the same -- I'm thinking of those popular rotational lifts where she's twisting around his neck like a feather boa, balanced across his shoulders -- nononononono.

We do appreciate the concern of spectators for our safety, but please let those who know what actually goes on out there do the designing?

 

[Mathman]

Oh...ueah...OK, I got nothing, then.

Pairs skaing is really quite unique in the sporting world -- two dare-devlis daring the devil as one! And looking gogeous while doing it.

In a sport like synchronized diving, OK, if your partner messes up you lose some synchronization points. But you don't break your neck (unless you mess up).

One more question. On the subject of skaters "learning how to fall," do pairs skaters practice how to abort a lift that goes wrong? Is there anything that you can do in that fifth of a second besides saying to yourself, "Oh, bleep"?

 

[NanaPat]

One more question. On the subject of skaters "learning how to fall," do pairs skaters practice how to abort a lift that goes wrong? Is there anything that you can do in that fifth of a second besides saying to yourself, "Oh, bleep"?

You don't have to be a skater to answer that, just watched Battle of the Blades. They absolutely practice how to set the partner down safely. You can also see technique in the aborted lifts in competitions (juniors have more of these).

But sometimes there's no warning that things are going badly.

 

[4everchan]

Oh...ueah...OK, I got nothing, then.

Pairs skaing is really quite unique in the sporting world -- two dare-devlis daring the devil as one! And looking gogeous while doing it.

In a sport like synchronized diving, OK, if your partner messes up you lose some synchronization points. But you don't break your neck (unless you mess up).

One more question. On the subject of skaters "learning how to fall," do pairs skaters practice how to abort a lift that goes wrong? Is there anything that you can do in that fifth of a second besides saying to yourself, "Oh, bleep"?

the lifts that are aborted are usually aborted to make sure the partners are safe... if the timing and balance don't feel right, the man will not push his partner up and just put her back down. As @NanaPat said, it's something that has been shown and explained quite a lot and is frequent in lower levels.

Now, if you talk about dropping while the partner is up, there are also ways to protect your partner to make sure they do not hit the ice too harshly and on their head. However, that's harder to do in the middle of the action, but they do learn that. Even in dance.
It's a long time ago, while they were in juniors but Fabbri and Ayer had a bad lift and he made sure they would fall safely. When I saw how caring and careful he was with Alicia, it was one of their first event together, I immediately became a fan.

Here is how to do so ... and no need to be scared.. nothing scary to watch here. If a man were ever to drop me, that's how I would want it to happen....

to Paul

 

[Diana Delafield]

Oh...ueah...OK, I got nothing, then.

You tried . That was nice of you to do the research. (Although in my city, types of bicycle helmets are regulated. A cyclist wearing one like that would be pulled over by the RCMP until they could prove the hat was indeed a helmet in disguise, that met the regulations.)

Pairs skaing is really quite unique in the sporting world -- two dare-devlis daring the devil as one!

Doubles luge? Or my sons' sport, two-man bobsled?

I'd include show jumping there, as practised by several of my relatives. The horse is an equal partner. One cousin has a horse who does his own mental calculations as they approach a fence, flicks his ears in a "Nope, no can do" warning if his result differs from hers, and puts on the brakes. He's been known to swerve and gallop around the end of the fence all prepared to see if the next one is more to his liking. The first time he did that, he catapulted her sideways and they met up on the other side, to his surprise when he found her there. She was unhurt, but they had Words when they got back to the stable.

And looking gogeous while doing it.

Oh please, can I quote you? Our coach doesn't always agree. Just the other day we were stumbling around like we were wearing our first pair of rental skates, on the wrong feet. Our coach had her head down on the boards. My partner said, "We look like beginners today, right?" and she snapped, "And not even promising beginners!"

In a sport like synchronized diving, OK, if your partner messes up you lose some synchronization points. But you don't break your neck (unless you mess up).

One more question. On the subject of skaters "learning how to fall," do pairs skaters practice how to abort a lift that goes wrong?

In my experience, it's more of a gradual process as you learn lifting off the ice. The lift doesn't go up. Try again. Partly up, but thumps back down, on your feet on the gym mat. Up, but somebody's wobbling and she comes down on his head or shoulder. The severity of the drops increases by small degrees along with the successes and you learn to adjust at each level. I do know some of the men learning to lift practise with sandbags of 100 lbs or so, letting it tip to one side or off the back while they learn how to control it as it goes down. Many of the ladies practise their arm and back muscle control for the aerial position using gymnastics equipment like a low bar or the beam -- that's what I did because I was already on my high school gymnastics team when I took up pairs skating at about 15. Lots practise their core control doing platters on the boards. You have equal responsibility as to whether the lift stays up or not, except for the occasions where he trips on a rut, or, in bygone years, some numbskull in the audience flashes a camera right in your eyes. But basically, he learns gradually, assisted by something non-human like a sandbag, how to get her down while gallantly throwing himself under her to protect her. What she pretty much needs from the start is the personality to have solid trust in a partner, and the ability to hold still and not flail around trying to save herself. Total trust that he'll do it.

Is there anything that you can do in that fifth of a second besides saying to yourself, "Oh, bleep"?

Not really. I was amused to learn, in a brief conversation with Barb Underhill many years ago, that she had the same thought flash through her mind every time as I do as I reach for the hold to be lifted: "Is this going to be the time I end up smash on my face?" But it's a thought that zips past the brain at light-speed and (this is the important part) vanishes as you go up and "Wheeee!" replaces it. If it does go wrong, all I think is "Oops" and keep my core tight even if the elbows have come unlocked (the usual reason for an aborted lift) as it goes down again.

 

[Arigato]

She bounced back within days but her partner took a couple months to bounce back since he was having panic attacks, afraid of dropping her again. Sport is not just physical, without a solid mental state you can't compete. Two years after the accident, they reached their goal of winning gold at the 2006 OLYG and retired afterwards. These videos were not posted to show how dangerous something is, but how dangerous something could be if you didn't get back up on the horse and compete - literally or metaphorically.

 

[el henry]

The stories of football players who

1. bounced right up again after hitting their heads,

2. put me back in coach, I'm rough I'm tough and I ain't scared,

3. coach puts him back in. Five, ten, twenty years later, CTE.

The stories are so legion, don't need to link them.

Safety is just as important, in skating, football, or anywhere else, as being rough, tough and brave. What form does it take? I don't know. That's the question.

 

[Arigato]

Thankfully the ISU doesn't base its decisions on hysteria.

 

[Mathman]

to Paul

The worst kind of fall, fortunately very rare, is when the man is not able to release his hold in time and ends up pinning the lady's arms so she can't even protect herself.

 

[Mathman]

The stories of football players...

When I was in high school one kid broke his nose. The coach shoved a pencil up his nose and sent him back in for the next play. He had a funny-looking nose for a while, but it established his rep.

One of the worst cases in pairs skating at the highest level was (if I am remembering the details correctly) when Elena Brereznaya got kicked in the head after losing unison on a side by side spin (1996). She was partially paralyzed for a time and she was unable to speak for many months. I am not sure that her speech is 100% even now. But she was back on the ice within two months of the accident, trying out a new partner, Anton Sikharulidze.

 

[el henry]

Thankfully the ISU doesn't base its decisions on hysteria.

I don't see anyone here arguing based on hysteria, so the ISU may safely base their decisions on what we are discussing here.

 

[Diana Delafield]

When I was in high school one kid broke his nose. The coach shoved a pencil up his nose and sent him back in for the next play. He had a funny-looking nose for a while, but it established his rep.

One of the worst cases in pairs skating at the highest level was (if I am remembering the details correctly) when Elena Brereznaya got kicked in the head after losing unison on a side by side spin (1996). She was partially paralyzed for a time and she was unable to speak for many months. I am not sure that her speech is 100% even now. But she was back on the ice within two months of the accident, trying out a new partner, Anton Sikharulidze.

In Berezhnaya's case, if you read interviews with her, she was abused right from the start as a child in skating, from her first coach on, and didn't know any better than to skate with a known abuser like Oleg Shliakhov. He frequently dropped her deliberately from lifts and always blamed her. The famous kick in the head may or may not have been deliberate -- certainly friends of mine who competed at Skate Canada with them witnessed him trip her on purpose in practice sessions, and punch her.

However, I've always had reservations about the sbs camel spin, and when I saw Jessica Dube get kicked in the face by Bryce Davidson (who would have cut off his own foot rather than injure his partner) at the 2007 Four Continents it left me with far more uneasiness about that element than I've ever had with lifts, twists and throws. Since I'd long left competition by then and was just skating for fun, I was able to make it a rule with any of my several recreational partners that he stay a fair distance away in that spin.

 

[Arigato]

the ISU may safely base their decisions on what we are discussing here.

The idea that a sports organization would make a formal decision on anything affecting athletes based on what a bunch of internet users think is absurd in and of itself. BTS Army might as well weigh in.

 

[el henry]

The idea that a sports organization would make a formal decision on anything affecting athletes based on what a bunch of internet users think is absurd in and of itself. BTS Army might as well weigh in.

Well, I think that is based on a misunderstanding of my comment. or that I did not make clear the intent of the comment, but I quite agree. I have long maintained that I sincerely hope no one from the skating community bases any kind of decision with regard to their skating on Internet comments. Or takes seriously any internet criticism.

Let me clarify my earlier comment:

No one on this Forum in this thread has been hysterical or has expressed an opinion based on hysteria. Should anyone from the ISU for some reason read these comments, they would find nothing "hysterical" here.

 

[Mathman]

But it's a thought that zips past the brain at light-speed and (this is the important part) vanishes as you go up and "Wheeee!" replaces it.

I have to say that my very favorite skaters are those that can convey that "Wheeee!" to the audience. Here is Felicia Zhang, with an assist from Nate Bartholomay, whee-ing her way to the silver medal at 2014 U.S. Nationals and a trip to the Olympics.

2014 US Nationals-Zhang Bartholomay LP [HD]

Felicia Zhang & Nathan Bartholomay

www.youtube.com

 

[adhara]

One more question. On the subject of skaters "learning how to fall," do pairs skaters practice how to abort a lift that goes wrong? Is there anything that you can do in that fifth of a second besides saying to yourself, "Oh, bleep"?

I'm not a pairs skater, I'm an ice dancer and former singles skater. That being said, I trained in rinks with pairs teams that medaled at US nats and even the olympics. All my singles coaches have also been pairs coaches. I also obviously have lift experience as an ice dancer though it is different, so I will stick to talking about what I observed with a teeny bit of input from my experience.

First off, lifts are usually learned off the ice with a spotter. From there, they are learned on the ice with a spotter without rotating. In the whole process of putting a lift up, you can usually feel (and I can usually see) if something is going wrong. That is where most of the problems come from in lifts, the process of either putting the lift up or the process of changing positions. This is at least what is true in ice dance and what I have observed in pairs. When this happens, they usually expect it and can feel it and just put the lift down. These are the MAJORITY of lift errors in practice. Thing is, most lifts are very consistent once you have them and these errors will usually not appear very often in a well trained team. That's why you tend not to see that much in competition. These falls are relatively safe (edit: and often stay on the feet!!). Upthread, Diana talked about methods that pairs skaters used to practice aborting lifts once they get higher into the air than the first few attempts. These are slightly less safe but usually won't end in much more than a bruise if that happens at all. The mans job is to make sure the girl goes down as slowly as possible so that she can have as much reaction time as possible. The girls job is to control her fall.

Another fall that can kind of be prevented through practice but you can't feel coming as much is the man's footing. That being said, once an error here happens, there is no way of fixing it (especially with a 110+ pound girl over the head). You are going down. There's a lot less forgiveness here. When getting into a lift, if something is only slightly off, you can fix it. Footing is either 100% wrong or 100% right. It is very sensitive. This you can kinda feel coming, but not really. Good partners will still work very hard to ensure their partners are safe. You will still be hitting the ground pretty hard, but when falling from these lifts, you try to make sure your partner does not hit the ice with their head or in a way that would cause a broken bone. These falls are less safe and they are much more common in competition because it's literally a fluke. Like as much as you train this can still just happen.

All this to say, the falls you see in competition are more likely to be flukes as opposed to falls that are regularly seen in the training process.

 

[4everchan]

Another fall that can kind of be prevented through practice but you can't feel coming as much is the man's footing. That being said, once an error here happens, there is no way of fixing it (especially with a 110+ pound girl over the head). You are going down. There's a lot less forgiveness here. When getting into a lift, if something is only slightly off, you can fix it. Footing is either 100% wrong or 100% right. It is very sensitive. This you can kinda feel coming, but not really. Good partners will still work very hard to ensure their partners are safe. You will still be hitting the ground pretty hard, but when falling from these lifts, you try to make sure your partner does not hit the ice with their head or in a way that would cause a broken bone. These falls are less safe and they are much more common in competition because it's literally a fluke. Like as much as you train this can still just happen.

All this to say, the falls you see in competition are more likely to be flukes as opposed to falls that are regularly seen in the training process.

and that's the example i showed above. Paul lost his footing... but he managed to keep Alicia as far away as possible from the ice and as long as he could do so.. He ended up safely landing on his butt while she was still in his arms !!! Super impressive. It even looks like he was aware of the blades so nobody would get injured. She just got up in a second. I think she may not have had a single bruise from it. I was SUPER impressed by Paul and he has been one of my faves since then

 

[adhara]

and that's the example i showed above. Paul lost his footing... but he managed to keep Alicia as far away as possible from the ice and as long as he could do so.. He ended up safely landing on his butt while she was still in his arms !!! Super impressive. It even looks like he was aware of the blades so nobody would get injured. She just got up in a second. I think she may not have had a single bruise from it. I was SUPER impressed by Paul and he has been one of my faves since then

Yes, this is very, very practiced. Some skaters are better at it than others, but most decent partners will avoid anything more than a bruise unless something terrible happens (or in a throw where they can't control it).

Where I'm from, you practice bailing and falling from elements before attempting them. I've learned from this thread that this is not the standard and that many skaters have not learned to fall properly, which is unfortunate.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I have to say that my very favorite skaters are those that can convey that "Wheeee!" to the audience. Here is Felicia Zhang, with an assist from Nate Bartholomay, whee-ing her way to the silver medal at 2014 U.S. Nationals and a trip to the Olympics.

2014 US Nationals-Zhang Bartholomay LP [HD]

Felicia Zhang & Nathan Bartholomay

www.youtube.com

Yep, I know how that feels, honey .

for this! I'll have to watch the whole performance if I can find it. I don't remember having seen him skate before, but he looks amazingly like my own partner, the one I competed with for almost ten years, in face, body build, and enthusiasm