How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?

[4everchan]

Yep, I know how that feels, honey .

for this! I'll have to watch the whole performance if I can find it. I don't remember having seen him skate before, but he looks amazingly like my own partner, the one I competed with for almost ten years, in face, body build, and enthusiasm

He's Deanna's first partner.

 

[Diana Delafield]

He's Deanna's first partner.

I recognized the name. I just hadn't seen him skate on TV, not seeing much of Americans until they get out into international events. My partner was taller, the height difference between us more like that of Deanna and Max, but otherwise that's my boy . That solid upper body makes his partner feel so secure.

 

[Arriba627]

Yep, I know how that feels, honey .

for this! I'll have to watch the whole performance if I can find it. I don't remember having seen him skate before, but he looks amazingly like my own partner, the one I competed with for almost ten years, in face, body build, and enthusiasm

Here they are. Nate Bartholomay and Deanna -- 2018 at the Friends of Figure Skating breakfast.

 

[el henry]

Now that we're off topic on such a wonderful subject...

I love love love love that skate of Felicia and Nate at 2014 US Nats. One of my "watch when you want to feel good" skates.

I am probably the only person who came to love Deanna because I loved Nate first. I actually have an extremely tenuous connectio to Nate, as his mother ran a local specialty bakery in my sister's town and I "met" him as a crying almost toddler. I started the FF for Nate and Deanna when they paired up because I followed Nate.

But of course I fell for Deanna too, and the rest is history.

 

[4everchan]

Now that we're off topic on such a wonderful subject...

I love love love love that skate of Felicia and Nate at 2014 US Nats. One of my "watch when you want to feel good" skates.

I am probably the only person who came to love Deanna because I loved Nate first. I actually have an extremely tenuous connectio to Nate, as his mother ran a local specialty bakery in my sister's town and I "met" him as a crying almost toddler. I started the FF for Nate and Deanna when they paired up because I followed Nate.

But of course I fell for Deanna too, and the rest is history.

stop making the babies cry !!!!
I have to admit I never really followed Nate until he repartnered after he and Deanna parted ways. I was interested in finding out who got the better deal..... yeah.. sometimes I am quirky like this. But it must be weird to know that your former partner is now a world champion.

 

[Skating91]

We seem to be long on opinions on this thread, but short on practical proposals as to what the ISU (or anyone) might do to improve safety in the sport. Here is my offering.

There is no reason why helmets for pairs skaters cannot be chic, fashionable, cute and cool, as well as lightweight and functional. Here are some bicycle helmets (the third one costs $4.50 at Walmart – and you can still have your hair flowing in the breeze as you zoom across the ice).

https://images.ibspot.com/e1lqsx9uy4gg54meomb8ll26m2ca?width=800&height=800&format=webp

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1330/8683/files/Straw-Hat-Bike-Helmet-755-x-755.jpg?v=1554241487

https://i5.walmartimages.com/seo/Dg....jpeg?odnHeight=640&odnWidth=640&odnBg=FFFFFF

I agree that more needs to be done to protect the head, but the helmet won't do much to stop a broken neck from a somersault going wrong.

Also, I read a lot of criticism about children learning quads, but if it's not safe for children to be jumping quads, then what is the safe age to start training somersaults on ice? At least with a quad you can pop it into a double or triple if it goes wrong. If you pop a somersault you end up with broken wrists, maybe missing teeth, potentially a broken neck.

 

[sisinka]

With today's level of training doses and difficulty of elements athlete's body will always be damaged in a certain way. No possibility to avoid it.

But taking care about athlete's health we can postpone the start of health troubles or decrease damaging effect of injuries. This improves the quality of life after retirement. This allows to have longer career. This allows skater to show her / his maximal potential.

Top athletes are used to undervalue their injuries. Overcoming pain daily they learn to ignore the most important thing which pain brings - WARNING.

Because stress fracture or tendinitis never happen immediately. Increasing pain, muscle group / muscle fascia changes come much sooner giving a sign that load is more that the body is able to deal with.

I miss ISU doing an EVALUATION OF SKATER'S INJURIES (directly or with help of Figure Skating Federations). To determine whether changes in rules are a step in a good direction or not. Because from time to time some less common injury may start to appear more frequently which can be a warning. (Last season Shawn Rettstatt told that skaters were asked about their opinions as to rule's changes. No words about health.)

I am sure that since Level 4 lifts were created, number of injuries in Ice Dance cathegory increased. But I am also almost sure that it went "under the radar", because evaluation does not exist.

Don't take my posts as a criticism, take it as a possibility to change things in a way that will help skaters to reach maximal potential and decrease number of injuries.

Rehabilitation is not wide spread in Figure Skating world. And no, I don't mean electrotherapy. (To explain meaning of Rehabilitation in top elite sport fully - there is not enough space for it.)

But let's look at an excerpt of professor Kolar's lecture about right technique in hockey which goes hand in hand with right postural stabilization:
https://youtu.be/SfrecVVndL8?t=1413
- from 23:33 to 25:10 (it has English subtitles).
Those principles are working like this in almost every sport.

Let's go to ICE DANCE LIFTS:

I have 8 topics to write about from my view as a Rehabilitation Doctor.

1) CONCUSSIONS - their number is increasing in Ice Dance cathegory. How many of them are caused by lifts, that is the question.

Evalution looking for which part of lift (entry, exit, established position, change of pose) is leading to biggest troubles AND which feature (Spread Eagle, One Foot position, lady leaning away...) leads to falls the most - it would be helpful. This would give an indicative insight as to acute injuries. (Though it can never be precise as we have many variants of lifts using different combination of features.)

2) INJURIES IN GENERAL THANKS TO NOT IDEAL TECHNIQUE (without concussions)

Both for ladies and men.

Couples are executing ACROBATIC LIFTS. If you are not strong enough in deep stabilizing muscles, superficial back / belly muscles and upper arms muscles, you activate additional muscles. It leads to overloading those muscles, it creates muscle imbalances....at the end of this chain reaction there is a big range of injuries (of muscles, tendons, joints, vertebral discs.)

As professor Kolar mentions - spine must be straight. Only right posture = right position of segments allow to activate deep muscle stabilizing system. Only with this activation in the beginning of the movement segments of the body can be stabilized. No strengthening can be right WITHOUT right deep muscle system activation in the beginning.

Entry / exit / change of pose with LADY ROLLING AROUND MEN'S SHOULDERS AND HEAD. Few men are doing this with right technique. Many men (especially juniors) are tilting their head to the side to avoid lady's body. This is suspicious from not good strengthening.

Some men tilt their heads to the side and forward. Tilting head forward - it usually leads to transfer of lady's weight on men's neck while rolling her around.

ROTATION IN SPINE in any moment of the lift is wrong and leads to overloading. Rotating in spine = NO postural stabilization.

I expect these mistakes to be more frequent in juniors.

 

[sisinka]

3) NECK PRESSURING

From whole spine, cervical part is the most fragile. Neck region contains many structures which can be easily overloaded and damaged.

One thing and prone to injury situation is rolling around the neck with not ideal technique - it will lead to injury with time. Completely different thing and much more dangerous is established position with neck pressuring.

2023-24 Free Dance Straight Line Lift by Mrazkova & Mrazek.
https://files.fm/u/8mz3hyrdtk

During this Lift you can mention there are two serious moments:
a) When Katerina puts her knee on Daniel's shoulder, her thigh is not vertical, but it is under angle, which means that her centre of gravity is partially behind his head. It means that in this moment she pressures his neck from side and back using majority of her weight.
b) After she gets into the position and elevates her right leg, she is not stable moving from side to side, which creates another pressure on his neck from side.

Simulation of Katerina's position in home conditions with weight scale under my knee. My weight is under 52 kg...pressure under my knee was from 39 to 45 kg (I tried to move in small range from side to side like Kate).

I can just guess....Lateral pressure of Kate's knee and thigh on Daniel's neck in a) moment can be close to those 30 kilograms, I think. In b) moment it will be less, from 5 to 15 kilograms?

In slow motion you can see that pressure on Daniel's neck is that enormous that it forces him to move his head to the side and forward. It means the force is bigger than his muscles are able to deal with. It means no protection for muscles / ligaments / discs / vertebrae in that part.

Katerina's pressure on Daniel's neck comes fast and in unexpected moments thanks to low stability during the lift with "waving" her body from side to side.

Let's imagine that the lift was trained - for example 5 times per day, 6 days per week, since June to March = 10 months. It is 1200 times of neck pressure per season.

Science studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5545075/
CHARACTERIZATION OF NECK STRENGTH IN HEALTHY YOUNG ADULTS
- article / study from 2017, published in PM&R Medicine Journal

- 157 healthy young adults (ages 18–35, 84 male, 73 female; average age 27 years) had their neck strength measured with fixed frame dynamometry

- Peak and average strength of the neck muscles was measured

- Neck strength ranged from 38–383 Newtons in men and from 15–223 Newtons in women

OUTCOME from this study:
Neck muscles are visibly weaker when pushing from lateral side in comparison with extension - 136.0 versus 223.6 Newtons.

https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item?id=MQ87892&op=pdf&app=Library&oclc_number=57339473
QUANTIFICATION OF ISOMETRIC CERVICAL STRENGTH AT DIFFERENT RANGES OF FLEXION AND EXTENSION
- from 2003 from University of Alberta.

- 39 participants

- cervical strength in neutral position is from 31.42 to 45.10 Newtons = from 3.2 to 4.6 kilograms
- cervical strength changes with different degree of flexion and extension in cervical spine
- bigger flexion or extension = lower strength:
flexion of 25% - 71% of strength in neutral position, mean 23.07 Newtons = 2.35 kilograms,
flexion of 50% - 60% of strength in neutral position, mean 19.02 Newtons = 1.94 kilograms,
flexion of 75% - 39% of strength in neutral position, mean 12.40 Newtons = 1.26 kilograms. (pictures)

OUTCOME from this study:
1) Results of isometric cervical strength were visibly lower in comparison with previous study (but other way of measuring was chosen).

2) Flexion of cervical spine reduces cervical muscles strength (Daniel's head is in flexion in cervical spine in Straight Line Lift - side view is needed to see how many degrees, I guess it can be between 20 - 30 degree.)

3) The bigger degree of flexion the lower cervical strength is.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0161475418303257
INDIVIDUALS WITH CHRONIC PAIN HAVE LOWER NECK STRENGTH THAN HEALTHY CONTROLS: A Systematic Review With Meta-Analysis
- from 2019, Universities in Brazil

- individuals with chronic neck pain have lower neck strength for flexion, extension, and lateral flexion of the neck than healthy control participants

OUTCOME from this study:
1) Chronic overloading (which almost always means pain) will make cervical part of spine weaker forever.

--------------
I don't want to name all posible injuries and damages which could happen or which already happened in Daniel's case. This would be too long. Next seasons will show long term consequences of this approach.

I asked few other Rehabilitation specialists for their opinion about this Straight Line Lift, especially pressuring the neck part. Those specialists were Senior Doctor (or Head Doctor, I don't know English term), Assistants of Senior Doctor (that is me as well), Doctors from Inpatient Clinic and Outpatient Private Clinics, Physiotherapists. 12 specialists working from 8 years to 27 years (8 of them Doctors with Rehabilitation specialization, 1 Doctor in Traumatology).

They shared my opinion using different kind of description of all pathologies which will happen or may happen.

I definitely would like to suggest ISU TO FORBID NECK PRESSURING IN ESTABLISHED POSITIONS.

 

[Mathman]

I think that the main concern of the iSU , in discouraging elements like backflips and adagio pairs moves, is not so much the safety of the athletes but rather the integrity of the sport. The big albatross around the neck of figure skating is the perception that "it's not a real sport." A sprinter, for instance, does not stop in the middle of a 100-meter dash and do his stand-up comedy routine, however entertaining that might be for the audience. The ISU wants to present figure skating as a legitimate competitive sport and not a circus.

Here are some accomplished ice aerialists, performing in the disciplines of hoop and silks. Very nice. Would we like to see these skills incorporated into the free skating component of an ISU competition?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjRBZtjnuYw)

Daria - Ice Aerial Silks

Daria started her artistic journey with Figure Ice Skating at the age of 4yrs. She had an education in classic dance bases , acting, singing and took part in...

www.youtube.com

 

[Diana Delafield]

I think that the main concern of the iSU , in discouraging elements like backflips and adagio pairs moves, is not so much the safety of the athletes but rather the integrity of the sport. The big albatross around the neck of figure skating is the perception that "it's not a real sport." A sprinter, for instance, does not stop in the middle of a 100-meter dash and do his stand-up comedy routine, however entertaining that might be for the audience. The ISU wants to present figure skating as a legitimate competitive sport and not a circus.

Here are some accomplished ice aerialists, performing in the disciplines of hoop and silks. Very nice. Would we like to see these skills incorporated into the free skating component of an ISU competition?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjRBZtjnuYw)

Daria - Ice Aerial Silks

Daria started her artistic journey with Figure Ice Skating at the age of 4yrs. She had an education in classic dance bases , acting, singing and took part in...

www.youtube.com

There's a circus arts school in my city (or was, before the pandemic, haven't seen their ads since then) and I dropped in occasionally when they had a Give It A Try day. It was fun, and there were at least two women a generation older than I who were impressively expert at the silks. But combine it with skates, which surely must be restrictive to avoid catching a blade? I just assume the person was someone who couldn't manage much in the way of skating or gymnastics skills and needed to add a gimmick for either sport.

So no, I doubt the ISU would go that far, thank goodness. And I'm one who, in spite of embracing skating as a competitor, have always been a bit uneasy about the grey area including dance -- as in ballet and musical theatre or jazz dance -- and skating. I've done both and they require equal athleticism and almost identical skills, with just what's on and under your feet providing the variance. So why is one an Olympic sport and the other isn't? I've never decided which argument I support.

 

[sisinka]

ICE DANCE LIFTS: part 2

4) STRESS FRACTURE

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4306780/
- This is reported case of an ice dancer - lady (European Champion and World medalist) from The Journal of Sports Science & Medicine, who in 2013 suffered stress fracture of ulnae.

- Ice dancer did about 500 repetitions of the lift since August to November.

- "The technical elements in ice dancing can overload joints and bones due to the positions held by the skaters."

In her case stress fracture was caused by a combination of few factors:
- using non dominant (weaker) upper limb
- position in doughnut
- taking doughnut position AFTER the rotations started which led to enormous overloading of upper arm and forearm especially thanks to the weight of holded lower limb and centrigufal force.

https://youtu.be/TMIOm2BPras?t=44 - video with original lift

- The lift was later modificated to decrease the load on left forearm - which was a very wise decision made by coach - partner put her leg into doughnut position.

- Article mentions that: "The athlete reported having sustained no acute injuries during the previous months and that the pain had begun to worsen starting in late September." Skater was diagnosed: "...in November 2013 because of dull persistent pain in the left forearm that had worsened over the previous 10 days."

So the pain got worse since late September (got worse means that she was in pain even before)...but examination with diagnosed stress fracture happened in November.

Another my note (not mentioned in the article) - looking at Free Program her left forearm was used in other lifts as well. Video of their Free Dance is above. Straight Line Lift - left upper limb carried the most of her weight getting into front flip, getting on men's shoulder it needed another muscle activation of left upper limb. Rotational Lift - "sitting" position with left upper limb holding men's hand - once again more then half of her weights on her left upper limb. Curved Lift - getting into the position she pressures left upper limb. Choreographic Lift at the end - once again left upper limb holding the position. Beside that there was one assisted jump with full load on left upper limb. Sliding moment towards the end of Free Dance with pressuring of both upper limbs.

Once some part of the body is overloaded - and treatment doesn't come, then even NORMAL LOAD causes overloading and increases the seriousness of an injury.

People talk about new young French couple - Mouaden & Bigot. This week I watched them to look for something I needed for research...and look what I found...
https://youtu.be/WbUMor7uPG0?t=169
- Stacionary Lift with her left upper limb getting doughnut position AFTER the rotation started (not sure whether it is dominant limb or not)
It would be good to modificate this lift to avoid similar injuries female ice dancer above experienced.

Centrifugal force always increases the load on body. Doughnut or Biellmann positions can be established using both upper limbs or one.
I would like to recommend (it would be nice to have it in ISU rules as well) in case of ROTATIONAL OR STATIONARY LIFT to ALWAYS USE lady's both upper limbs or men's upper limb for establishing doughnut / Biellmann position. Using only one lady's upper limb can be injury prone, even cause stress fracture.

------------
This season Filip Taschler had spine stress fracture.
https://adivinesport.com/2024/01/08/the-taschlers-return-from-career-threatening-injury/
“I’d had a problem with my lower back for a long time,” Taschler revealed. “I was thinking it’s just a muscular problem, or inflammation from the hard training. But it was building up. Then it was constant.”

The mechanism was not officially reported, Filip says he doesn't know exact moment. He describes too big load and too little regeneration during summer preparation leading to longterm tiredness. ( source - Czech article - https://sport.ceskatelevize.cz/clan...enuji-a-mysli-vysoko/6569d44f61d8d47534dac0d2)

For evaluating which elements or movements led to stress fracture a proper anamnesis would be needed of course.

Looking at their lifts, Natalie is doing her part well. Although Filip is good in lifts, this season there were technical mistakes. Tilting his head to the side during Rotational lift and Choreographic Lift in the beginning of the season - this can be suspicious from not good strengthening. Big technical mistake was done in Rhythm Dance Stacionary Lift ( https://youtu.be/hk7ywsDmMNI?t=132 ) - assisted lift in Entry is OK but since Natalie goes in the air, Filip is rotating chest and elevating left shoulder. It means he is not strengthened rightly and both upper limbs and spine are overloaded. Overload is bigger thanks to centrifugal force during rotation.

Also summer is usually full of attempts of new lifts where controlling right technique is essential. But as I told before proper anamnesis would be needed.

From article it once again looks like that diagnosis was delayed. Overloading during summer probably means pain since late August or September. He was diagnosed few days before start of Cup of China, which means late October.

 

[4everchan]

technique is everything... i could provide a long list of studies about injuries caused by... wait for it... music.

The problem is that the focus nowadays is not on slow development and technique but on getting up there as soon as possible... Seems like it's the same in figure skating and everywhere else.

 

[Mathman]

There's a circus arts school in my city (or was, before the pandemic, haven't seen their ads since then) and I dropped in occasionally when they had a Give It A Try day. It was fun, and there were at least two women a generation older than I who were impressively expert at the silks. But combine it with skates, which surely must be restrictive to avoid catching a blade?

Oksana Baiul as a pro once teamed up with an aerial act. I caught it live in a charity event organized by Ben Agosto and Tanith Belbin. Oksana skated and the aerialists were just suspended above the ice surface but not wearing skates. The deal was that a show promoter had to hire both as a package. It was fun.

 

[Mathman]

technique is everything... i could provide a long list of studies about injuries caused by... wait for it... music.

I can understand that. You get so carried away with the beautiful music that you forget that you've got a routine to get through.

 

[4everchan]

I can understand that. You get so carried away with the beautiful music that you forget that you've got a routine to get through.

you may think this is funny but some bad practice has destroyed the career of many musicians. Fine, musicians won't get concussions but they are at risk for many other issues including :

• Carpal tunnel syndrome.
• Bursitis.
• Tendinitis.
• De Quervain's tenosynovitis.
• Strained vocal cords.
• Thoracic outlet syndrom.
• Strains to the shoulder, back or neck.
• and of course, many experience severe performance anxiety disorder

A musician who has been dedicating their entire life to their art, getting one of these injuries can face severe depression leading to the worst unthinkable outcome....

Some reading for you

Mental health provision in classical music

Chris Gunness explores the facts and figures relating to mental health in the music industry

www.classical-music.uk

Many of the UK’s music and mental health charities are encouraging performing arts institutions to intensify efforts to combat mental illness and implement proactive policies. Their evidence is compelling. According to Help Musicians UK’s (HMUK) ‘Can Music Make You Sick?’ report, commissioned in 2016, the music community may be up to three times more likely to experience depression than the general public. Over 70% of respondents had panic attacks and anxiety, and 68% said they suffered from depression. The British Association of Performing Arts Medicine (BAPAM) says 12% of those seeking their services had a history of psychiatric care and that half the callers to their helpline were classical musicians, mainly music students and freelancers.

 

[Diana Delafield]

technique is everything... i could provide a long list of studies about injuries caused by... wait for it... music.

You mean like Jean-Baptiste Lully?

 

[Mathman]

- Ice dancer did about 500 repetitions of the lift since August to November.

I think that this is a problem that does not received enough attention. A freak fall that results in catastropic injury is one thing. But the problems associated with chronic overtraining can also have dire consequences.

Tara Lipinski could not be stopped from doing endless repititions of the triple loop and the 3Lo/3Lo combo. The scuttlebutt was that Tara's coach had to appeal to her mother to drag her off the ice and take her home when the session was over. It won Tara Olympic gold at 15, but her hips were shot and she retired from skating soon after.

Michelle Kwan did not have a very flexible back. When the IJS came along in 2003 it required contorsionist spin positions that were the last straw. By the time of her last "competition" (December, 2005) she was so crippled up that she could hardly walk, much less skate. (She won the competition anyway since it was an audience participation phone-in-the-vote affair.)

 

[4everchan]

You mean like Jean-Baptiste Lully?

No... I didn't mean Lully. Anyone could die from an infection back then. I meant what young musicians face today if they want to have a career.... the physical and mental strains are often unbearable.

 

[4everchan]

I think that this is a problem that does not received enough attention. . But the problems associated with chronic overtraining can also have dire consequences.

What do you think I was referring to ? Training a 3lo-3lo can cause hip problems... what do you think practicing a Rachmaninoff concerto for hours everyday for months can lead to ? Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread. I was simply making a point that nowadays, we are bound to see more and more injuries in figure skating because, like in other fields, there is a sense of having to achieve the big tricks sooner and sooner and that means more and more repetition and then, more and more injuries from wear and tear.

 

[Mathman]

you may think this is funny but some bad practice has destroyed the career of many musicians.

Oh, sorry, no of course the ailments that you mention are no laughing matter. I misuderstood your post #72. I thought you were saying that musical considerations might affect ifigure skaters, for instance by throwing off their timing trying to mactch the musical phrasing. My bad.