Should 2 quads a long program become the limit?

[Meoima]

After watching Japan Open I've always thought about this. Quad is nice but only when you can execute it along with other elements.

Watching PChiddy's performance, I can't helped but thinking that less quad brings better effect on his skating level. Of course he skated a wonderful 2 quad program at TEB last year but the probability of him doing a totally clean long program with 2 quads including 1 quad and 1 combo is not very high. And frankly I would take PChiddy's new Chopin program over any of his 2 quad program of the last quad.

Hanyu's 2 different quad program even had less change of going clean. If I recall correcly, Hanyu only got clean 3 times with that insane layout. Of course it also had to do with his stamnia and health condition. He could have gone for 2 quad toe, since his 4T is much more reliable than 4S. If so, the probability of clean program from Yuzuru might have been much higher. But for sure had he only went for 1 quad, his program would look much better aesthetically IMO.

Then Javi, 3 quads a long and we rarely ever see him not zayzak or not pop a jump. Had he only went for 2 quads, maybe it would have been much better for him, he might have had more medals, who knows?

I have seen guys went for 3 quads, both junior and senior, and I have to say all haven't been very satisfying. Even if they executed all the jumps, they look sloopy and the presentations are mostly not easy to the eyes (see Boyang Jin). If they excuted all the quad, they zayak or pop in the second half. So...should there be any limit for the number of quad?

In my opinion, 2 quads a program should be maximum. 3 quad program is just... Too much for most skater at this time to master.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually I think Hanyu only had 1 clean layout (WC2014)... Although I think at finlandia he landed both quads. The 4S was his nemesis all of last season.

I don't think two quads should be mandatory but by now it should be the standard.

However for me a performance isn't diminished if it only has 1 quad. I mean look at Brown's Riverdance at Nationals - I'd call that one of the best skates of last season even with no quad.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

As for Zayaking, that should be the skater's own training that prevents that. It's absolutely asinine that Fernandez had a 3S as his final jumping pass when literally any other jumping pass would be less likely to Zayak.

 

[Meoima]

Actually I think Hanyu only had 1 clean layout (WC2014)... Although I think at finlandia he landed both quads. The 4S was his nemesis all of last season.
I don't think two quads should be mandatory but by now it should be the standard.
However for me a performance isn't diminished if it only has 1 quad. I mean look at Brown's Riverdance at Nationals - I'd call that one of the best skates of last season even with no quad.

You don't get my point. I mean should they put a limit on the number of quad per long program? In my opinion 2 quad should be maximum, not mandatory. Because all the injury issue that tagging along, I think 3 quads a program is too much. Not to mention have we ever seen a 3 quad program with excellent presentation level?
But of course there are guys who are capable of doing 2 quads, so 2 quad as the maximum limit might be okay?

 

[Mrs. P]

No. The "free skating" already has a lot of restrictions as it stands. Each skater and their coaching team should be free to execute whatever strategy works best for them. If they feel they can gain the most points by doing three quads (even if that means messing up one) then fine.

OTOH, if other skaters, like Jason Brown, want to focus on other aspects and not do a quad, that is fine also.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You don't get my point. I mean should they put a limit on the number of quad per long program? In my opinion 2 quad should be maximum, not mandatory. Because all the injury issue that tagging along, I think 3 quads a program is too much. Not to mention have we ever seen a 3 quad program with excellent presentation level?
But of course there are guys who are capable of doing 2 quads, so 2 quad as the maximum limit might be okay?

I'd say we've seen 3 quads with good presentation from Fernandez and Reynolds. Tbh replacing the 3rd quad with a triple (even an axel) diminishes the overal effect.

 

[Meoima]

I'd say we've seen 3 quads with good presentation from Fernandez and Reynolds. Tbh replacing the 3rd quad with a triple (even an axel) diminishes the overal effect.

I mean excellent presentation (by their standard). I have a feeling their programs might look much better and more well-balanced if they only had 2 quads and spent more energy as well as stamina on other areas of their skating.

 

[Sandpiper]

If figure skating is to be a sport, it should move forward, not stand still. I mean, do they limit speed in skiing, in speed skating? It's all dangerous, but such is the way of elite sport.

Plus, this is a slippery slope. Let's cut it down to one quad then! Oh wait, people still get injuries, let's take out the quad! But the triple axel is still a problem, so maybe that should go as well...

I think the rules should just punish falls/step-outs/sloppiness more. That'll encourage people to perform programs they can skate reasonably well most of the time. (I've been saying this a lot, so maybe I shouldn't repeat it, lest people mistake me for having it out for specific skaters...). We don't need to limit quads to have more clean programs.

Plus, I don't see limiting quads as leading to better programs. I doubt someone like Boyang Jin will be a very engaging performer even if he does zero quads.

 

[Buttercup]

Why not put a limit on the amount and difficulty of the transitions? Or only allow doubles as the second half of a combination? If a skater wants to do three quads, or four quads, or however many they can fit in there, I don't see any reason to stop them from trying.

Patrick Chan made mistakes on programs well before he was trying quads. So was Hanyu. Zayak issues aren't necessarily because of people trying quads, it's a result of mistakes in program construction or not being able to think on your feet. Skaters make mistakes and have disappointing performances for many reasons and it seems pointless to make them skate easier programs as a solution.

As to injury concerns, I wouldn't be surprised if the strain and stress from contorted spins and lifts are just as big a problem as the jumps, if not bigger.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think the rules should just punish falls/step-outs/sloppiness more. That'll encourage people to perform programs they can skate reasonably well most of the time. (I've been saying this a lot, so maybe I shouldn't repeat it, lest people mistake me for having it out for specific skaters...). We don't need to limit quads to have more clean programs.

Plus, I don't see limiting quads as leading to better programs. I doubt someone like Boyang Jin will be a very engaging performer even if he does zero quads.

Yes, I agree with this totally.

The way the current system is, a UR is far more costly than a fall on a fully-rotated jump.

That said, I think clean programs are just more difficult to do given the amount of requirements under COP. And eventually it takes their toll on people. Rachael Flatt skated clean (or nearly clean) programs for years and then got riddled with injuries.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I actually feel like Fernandez should try 4 Quads, but backload the program less.

4Toe+3Toe
4Sal+2Toe
4Toe
3Axel
*spin*
----
4Sal
3Flip+half loop+3Sal
*leveled footwork sequence*
3Lutz
3Loop
*spin*
*choreography step sequence*
*spin*

If he misses the Triple in combination on the first jump, he can try for it again on the next jump. If he misses either of those opening combinations altogether, then they can still be attempted on the later repeat Quads. Easy to avoid zayak problems like this (unless BOTH Quads of the same type only become a Triple), all of most difficult jumps before the hard footwork, and worth considerably more points.

 

[HanDomi]

Nope. Why it should be ? If anyone can jump 5 quads, feel free

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Javi's performance at the 2013 Europeans had 3 quads and was an amazing performance. So it can work.
And less difficulty probably wouldn't mean more clean skates. Patty was amazing at JO, but I guess other circumstances (like JO not being a "real" competition) played a bigger role in his clean skate then the missing 2nd quad.

 

[alebi]

I get Meoima point of view and I'm almost on the same wavelenght. It seems like going for two quads is the minimum standard nowadays but it doesn't fit any skater's style. We see people with great PCS skills ruin their programs because of the jump layout (Abbott, Takahashi) and we see people with better tech skills trying to put as much quads as they can because they haven't any other quality so, you already know, you don't have to expect a rich program. But as someone properly said it's a free program and ISU has already put too many limits IMO. I think ISU should get rid of the Zayak rule instead of putting any other limit so skater could highlight their strenght instead of doing the standard which, I repeat, is the real problem now (skaters are forced to do it if they want to compete for the higher position). Hanyu is a great example: he's trying to do the 4S but if he could do more than two 3Axels, which seems to come so natural, the program would be better in general. Or if Brown could repeat his 3lutz many times, in combos and with the features he's able to do, the program would be way better instead of waiting for his long Axel's preparation. The new Chan's program looks so great and I didn't miss another quad or another 3axel because the program didn't need it. While Kovtun, Jin, Aaron can go for as many quads as they want because they are great at it and I don't expect anything else from them.

I'm not saying to put less difficulties, going for 3 or more 3Axels with difficult steps before isn't that easy too, I'm just saying skaters should go for their best not follow the usual path we see now, that is going to be so predictable and boring and not good for everyone.

And it's obvious that an ambitious skater would try big jumps anyway but not in the way he's forced to do it and also repeat it because one isn't enough (look at Chan going for two 3Axels)

 

[plushyfan]

Nope. Why it should be ? If anyone can jump 5 quads, feel free

:thumbsup:

 

[karne]

I completely disagree with any limiting of quads. Why should the skaters not be able to push themselves technically? Is that not what the sport is about? Gosh, imagine what it would have been like if the ISU had imposed your backwards thinking on something like the Plushenko-Yagudin years?

Yes, skaters might get injured over-training themselves on the quad. Skaters also might get injured training the triple Axel. Or spins. Or heck, a skater might even get injured walking down a flight of stairs. But wrapping them in bubble wrap and effectively killing the technical challenge of the sport is not the answer.

 

[Vernella]

More than limiting the number of elements (in this case it's quadruples, but it applies to whatever) it would be better to "institutionally" encourage skaters -and their teams- to build the programs to be more artistic. Imho, a skater should use the most difficult elements he can perform in the already artistically-best program and not put together the most difficult elements and then try to skate well... idk if i'm being clear enough? :think:
On the injuries part, it's a quite natural effect of performing at the limits of one's possibilities and it defines sport at such a high level so there's not much that can be done apart from athletic preparation, which is left to the athletes' teams.

So, no limiting, nope

 

[Wo|flax]

I think ISU should get rid of the Zayak rule instead of putting any other limit so skater could highlight their strenght instead of doing the standard which, I repeat, is the real problem now (skaters are forced to do it if they want to compete for the higher position). Hanyu is a great example: he's trying to do the 4S but if he could do more than two 3Axels, which seems to come so natural, the program would be better in general. Or if Brown could repeat his 3lutz many times, in combos and with the features he's able to do, the program would be way better instead of waiting for his long Axel's preparation. The new Chan's program looks so great and I didn't miss another quad or another 3axel because the program didn't need it. While Kovtun, Jin, Aaron can go for as many quads as they want because they are great at it and I don't expect anything else from them.

And it's obvious that an ambitious skater would try big jumps anyway but not in the way he's forced to do it and also repeat it because one isn't enough (look at Chan going for two 3Axels)

I don't like the Zayak rule as it is either; but having no zayak rule would be unfair and unbalanced (it'll go the way of gymnastics otherwise). The Zayak rule should separate quads from triples from doubles though.
Chan (he doesn't go for two 3As; unless you mean two axels) has to do the 2A because he can't repeat another triple (after the lutz) since he repeats the 4T; and if he want to take out the axel he'll have to do a 4S, which is slightly insane. and tbqh he can't just not do axels :/
which is Yuzurus thing again to repeat axel and lutz. it might seem it would be fine to do 3 of the same jump; but really I'm just think of Yuzuru and like; how is anyone going to stand up to unlimited 3As and 4T (and even 3ltz) from him? I don't think it would be fair.

If figure skating is to be a sport, it should move forward, not stand still. I mean, do they limit speed in skiing, in speed skating? It's all dangerous, but such is the way of elite sport.

Plus, I don't see limiting quads as leading to better programs. I doubt someone like Boyang Jin will be a very engaging performer even if he does zero quads.

I completely disagree with any limiting of quads. Why should the skaters not be able to push themselves technically? Is that not what the sport is about? Gosh, imagine what it would have been like if the ISU had imposed your backwards thinking on something like the Plushenko-Yagudin years?

Yes, skaters might get injured over-training themselves on the quad. Skaters also might get injured training the triple Axel. Or spins. Or heck, a skater might even get injured walking down a flight of stairs. But wrapping them in bubble wrap and effectively killing the technical challenge of the sport is not the answer.

^agree; You have to believe that the sport will only keep climbing technically, as it has done so in the past. The only thing that has stopped or prevented that happening (or pushed the sport back a decade) is badly thought out rule changes.

 

[HanDomi]

Yup, zayak is as it is, but without it it would be unbalanced. Hanyu would be able tojump just 3A's and 4T's for the whole program. I think it should be more like automatically downgrading a repeated triple jump to double to give some credit for it

 

[LRK]

Why not put a limit on the amount and difficulty of the transitions? Or only allow doubles as the second half of a combination? If a skater wants to do three quads, or four quads, or however many they can fit in there, I don't see any reason to stop them from trying.

Patrick Chan made mistakes on programs well before he was trying quads. So was Hanyu. Zayak issues aren't necessarily because of people trying quads, it's a result of mistakes in program construction or not being able to think on your feet. Skaters make mistakes and have disappointing performances for many reasons and it seems pointless to make them skate easier programs as a solution.

As to injury concerns, I wouldn't be surprised if the strain and stress from contorted spins and lifts are just as big a problem as the jumps, if not bigger.

I agree. But then I have never worshipped at the shrine of The Holy Transition. I'm a heretic, I admit - Transitions don't necessarily Thrill me. I'd rather have clean jumps. If the skater can squiggle and wriggle around before/after the jump AND land the jump clean, then, by all means. Otherwise, just land that bloo- er blessed jump!

And, yeah, I've been seeing PLENTY of mistake riddled zero quad programs from men. Just skipping the quads does not mean there will be no mistakes. Maybe if they only did doubles... ?