Should 2 quads a long program become the limit?

[TMC]

If figure skating is to be a sport, it should move forward, not stand still. I mean, do they limit speed in skiing, in speed skating? It's all dangerous, but such is the way of elite sport.

Plus, this is a slippery slope. Let's cut it down to one quad then! Oh wait, people still get injuries, let's take out the quad! But the triple axel is still a problem, so maybe that should go as well...

I think the rules should just punish falls/step-outs/sloppiness more. That'll encourage people to perform programs they can skate reasonably well most of the time. (I've been saying this a lot, so maybe I shouldn't repeat it, lest people mistake me for having it out for specific skaters...). We don't need to limit quads to have more clean programs.

Plus, I don't see limiting quads as leading to better programs. I doubt someone like Boyang Jin will be a very engaging performer even if he does zero quads.

Yes, I agree with this totally.

The way the current system is, a UR is far more costly than a fall on a fully-rotated jump.

That said, I think clean programs are just more difficult to do given the amount of requirements under COP. And eventually it takes their toll on people. Rachael Flatt skated clean (or nearly clean) programs for years and then got riddled with injuries.

No. The "free skating" already has a lot of restrictions as it stands. Each skater and their coaching team should be free to execute whatever strategy works best for them. If they feel they can gain the most points by doing three quads (even if that means messing up one) then fine.

OTOH, if other skaters, like Jason Brown, want to focus on other aspects and not do a quad, that is fine also.

Agree with you both!

 

[jcoates]

No...sport requires failure in order to progress. If they don't attempt them and miss, they'll never get better later.

 

[noskates]

YES. This emphasis on quads detracts from the overall performance in my opinion.

 

[cheerknithanson]

Absolutely not! It hinders talent that skaters have or are capable of. Plus some skaters depend on them in order to get higher placings!

 

[Meoima]

I still think 2 quad should be maximum because we can certainly see that too many quads a program mostly distract skaters from the rest of the program. There are so few skaters who can do well with too many quads.

 

[chasingpolaris]

I still think 2 quad should be maximum because we can certainly see that too many quads a program mostly distract skaters from the rest of the program. There are so few skaters who can do well with too many quads.

Agree. I can understand the importance of having quads in a program, but let us not forget that there are other elements that the skater must fulfill. You can have as many clean quads as you want, but what else is there to watch if everything else is done subpar?

 

[cheerknithanson]

I think it adds a visual "wowness" just like how we be like "wow" when cheerleaders can do multiple passes of round-off back handspring fulls.

 

[Icey]

No, of course not imo. I would have no problem seeing someone do as many quads singly and in combination as they can-----to the ultimate, whatever that is. lol What would be the ultimate under current cop rules?

 

[Sandpiper]

I still think 2 quad should be maximum because we can certainly see that too many quads a program mostly distract skaters from the rest of the program. There are so few skaters who can do well with too many quads.

And there's plenty of crappy no-quad programs, or shoddily skated no-quad programs. I still shudder a little when I think of Liam Firus' Olympic skate.

The ISU should encourage good programs by... encouraging good programs. Simplify the level requirements for the StSq in the SP (and bring back the two StSq), so that skaters can actually make the steps fit the music rather than cramming in all the turns. Punish falls, step-outs, sloppiness, ect. to encourage people to skate clean programs and do their best to save jumps. Take away levels for some of the spins, so we can see a nice simple scratch spin once in a while.

I honestly don't think limiting the number of quads is going to do anything. People who skate around looking lost (Boyang Jin) will continue to do so, just with fewer quads, which just makes them even less exciting to watch. People who are wonderful performers but seem to make dumb mental errors (Javi) will likely keep doing so as well.

I think a better discussion might be: should we limit quads for junior competitions? That could address the problems of injury, and of people like Jin not developing artistry, without killing the sport's advancement. (Note: I'm not saying we should limit quads, even there. But that's a discussion that I think is worth considering, while limiting quads entirely is out of the question for me).

Regarding Zayak: I'm with WoChair. It should stay, but with separations for quads/triples/doubles. You're allowed to repeat two types of triples and two types of quads. That'll relieve Patrick of doing 2A, allow Machida to go for 4-3, ect. without severely unbalancing things by people doing 3A, 3A, 3A the entire skate.

 

[centerpt1]

I would really like to see research on knee and back injuries in skating. I don't know what aspects of training are more likely to cause injury. Is it quad repetitions? Axels? something else? Maybe there is something that can be done in training to help prevent injury. Maybe equipment (boots) or ice characteristics?

I'm not in favor of limiting quads- but I would like to see more effort to prevent injury.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Yup, zayak is as it is, but without it it would be unbalanced. Hanyu would be able tojump just 3A's and 4T's for the whole program. I think it should be more like automatically downgrading a repeated triple jump to double to give some credit for it

You don't need to scrap the Zayak rule completely, but they could really loosen it a little. Separate triples and quads. Maybe say one jump can be done 3 times, or you can repeat 3 or 4 different jumps. Or say a jump is limited by the number of jumping passes it appears in, not the number itself. Of course, the latter could enable Yuzuru to do 3A-3A-...sequences in his programs, but I have to admit I'd like it

 

[TontoK]

I'm not in favor of limiting technical content.

However, I am in favor of much harsher punishments for falls, stepouts, incorrect edges in takeoff and landing...

In short, attempt what you want, but beware if you bite off more than you can chew.

I'm tired of seeing splat-fests.

I hope to never hear again such nonsense as "It was a fully rotated fall."

 

[meteorlight8]

No. The "free skating" already has a lot of restrictions as it stands. Each skater and their coaching team should be free to execute whatever strategy works best for them. If they feel they can gain the most points by doing three quads (even if that means messing up one) then fine.

OTOH, if other skaters, like Jason Brown, want to focus on other aspects and not do a quad, that is fine also.

I completely agree with this.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm not in favor of limiting technical content.

However, I am in favor of much harsher punishments for falls, stepouts, incorrect edges in takeoff and landing...

In short, attempt what you want, but beware if you bite off more than you can chew.

I'm tired of seeing splat-fests.

I hope to never hear again such nonsense as "It was a fully rotated fall."

Yes!! Make your own choices but BEWARE of their potential consequences. This is a good standard to set IMO.

Not a bad life lesson either :yes:

 

[meteorlight8]

I'm not in favor of limiting technical content.

However, I am in favor of much harsher punishments for falls, stepouts, incorrect edges in takeoff and landing...

In short, attempt what you want, but beware if you bite off more than you can chew.

I'm tired of seeing splat-fests.

I hope to never hear again such nonsense as "It was a fully rotated fall."

Agree with this as well.

Also, IMO, limiting quads would further discredit figure skating as a sport. The point of sports is to push at physical boundaries - which jumps like the quad epitomize. In fact, I'd like to see less of a limit on combos in skating programs. Harsher punishments for falls (I'm on the fence on how stepouts and incorrect edges are punished these days) would also be great for reconciling scores with what the average audience can judge and serve to motivate skaters to not over-reach on jumps beyond their capabilities.

I think it's fine to have the limit on quads at the junior level, but the "major leagues" so to speak shouldn't be doing any such coddling. It should be the skater's responsibility to construct balanced programs (or hit the balance that works best for them) - they shouldn't need help or protection from the rules on that count. If one just wants to watch wonderful performances - stick to exhibitions.

 

[noskates]

My point is - with multiple quads the whole focus of the program is the set-up and then recovering either from a successful landing or a botched landing. I really get tired of the attempts at quads. I think a program should be well-balanced and skaters should be all-round skaters, not just jumpers. And I agree with whoever said it would be interesting to do a study on what learning, practicing and attempting those jumps does to a skater's back and knees and if it limits the lifetime of their competitive career. We know MANY of them work all year long to perfect a program and then the quad takes them out of contention for anything because they either fall, single or double it, or under-rotate it. I've always thought the quad was over-rated. And I also like TontoK's post. I think the whole argument of "limiting technical content" is sort of ridiculous. There are so many more ways for a skater to express himself (or herself) than attempting some of these jumps. I don't like skaters who are just jumpers and the in-betweens are clumsy, ill-executed, awkward, not musical, and their spins look like off-balance tops. So have a stricter penalty for "falls, stepouts, incorrect edges in takeoff and landing" and don't give credit for a jump that is fully rotated but ends on someone's butt.

JMO of course. And I realize I'm in the minority but a well-skated clean program to me is far more representative of a skater's skills than some of these jump fests.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think skaters should be allowed to do whatever elements they wish in terms of difficulty, as long as they don't keep repeating jumps (i.e. no programs with 4 triple axels where Hanyu would clean up, or 4 quad toes where Chan would clean up).

Skaters should use their discretion when it comes to making programs too difficult. Obviously they know that with a splat fest they won't get good marks.

Another reason why quads shouldn't be limited -- if we want to see more attempts at different quads, then there needs to be an incentive. Otherwise most skaters limited to two quads in a program would simply train one type of quad and repeat it (unless they want to game the system like Hanyu and attempt an inconsistent quad, ensure it's rotated, and this opens up the ability to repeat 3A and 3Z).

 

[LRK]

I think the zayaking rules are needlessly convoluted.

For instance, if you repeat a jump it has to be in a combination. And if you fail to put it in a combination, it's somehow counted as a combination anyway.

And I wonder... Is there any particular reason why a repeated jump should be in a combination? I'm not saying there isn't - just that I don't know/understand the reasoning behind it. (I realise that this maybe should go in the Stupid Questions Thread. )

 

[merrywidow]

I'm an old woman and I recall back in the late 60's wishing that skaters would land more jumps in their programs, and lo & behold! eventually that happened. Then I wanted to see the men land harder triples than triple sal or triple toe. And that, too, became the norm. Then women landing triples. Who'd a tho't it?
And so it's gone over the years. It's called progression. I never tho't I'd live long enough to see anyone landing quads but I have. So long as their are risk takers & people prepared to push limits whether its in a sport or medicine or science, etc., there will be Progress. Otherwise there is stagnation. Ten years from now all quad programs may be the norm for the men, Will you then say "how boring this sport has become?"

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think the zayaking rules are needlessly convoluted.

For instance, if you repeat a jump it has to be in a combination. And if you fail to put it in a combination, it's somehow counted as a combination anyway.

And I wonder... Is there any particular reason why a repeated jump should be in a combination? I'm not saying there isn't - just that I don't know/understand the reasoning behind it. (I realise that this maybe should go in the Stupid Questions Thread. )

Funny enough, while you get dinged for failing to put a repeated jump in combination, some skaters actually repeat the same triple in two combinations (e.g. Julia has donea 3Z+3T to open, and a 3Z+2T later and used to do 2A+3T/2A+3T+2T... or Hanyu will do two triple axels in combination). And plenty of skaters do multiple solo 2As (e.g. Brown), although I think even 2As need to have at least one in combination now.

If you fail to put a jump in combination the second time around, it's counted as a sequence (80% value). It's a pretty harsh rule because if you fall on the jump the second time around or step out, it ends up being a deduction on top of a deduction (it does make it riskier to include combos in the 2nd half).