Should 2 quads a long program become the limit?

[karne]

I propose an additional deduction to skaters who do not attempt quads in the free skate.

I love it, mostly because immediately people are all "are you kidding" and don't seem to realise that you are replying to a totally nonsensical suggestion with an equally nonsensical suggestion.

 

[alebi]

I previously said to get rid of Zayak rules because I think ISU, with its logic, focuses more on penalize instead of encouraging diversity and creativity.
They can say, for example, "You have to do a total of 7 jumps, 3 must be combos (two with 2 jumps and one with 3 jumps) but you can choose any jump you prefer. To encourage diversity we give a 10% bonus on the overall score to the skater who executes well any kind or jump (no matter if quads or triples, while doubles don't count)."

Then you can decide if it's better for you to do 11 (!!) 3axels because you're Hanyu or 11 (!!) toe quads because you're Jin or a better balanced routine. I'm surprised people think skaters will do the same jump over and over because it's obvious it will never be possible. But with this simple rule you can find different ways to be on top, not forced by the repetition rule. If you're a jumping machine why not emphasize this doing as many difficult jumps as you can (but remember you have to do it effectively) or you can limite yourself to 3axels and more 3lutzes or risk just 1 quad or try to get the 10% bonus doing every type of jump. Remember that part of your score is still made by PCS and GOE so if you're not so good in quads you can work more on this aspect (while if you're good you can work more on that other aspect). I think this way we can see different kinds of skaters and both have the same probability to get on the top, just using different ways.

Nowadays, if we see the jump layout to be on top you must follow: first two jumps are two quads and then one/two 3axels or first jumps are three quads and then one 3axel. The only interest in watching these routines is "Will he do the jumps well?"... I would prefer to watch something more unexpected and this doesn't mean we have to reduce difficulties, just find different ways to do something difficult and reward skaters who prove to be complete and not, for example, lutzes addicted.


The same logic can be applied to spins and steps sequence. Have you seen how ugly are today's spins? (especially for men...) Because they have to do one position, and then another type, and then change again and count the spins and so on... to get the levels. No matter if you're portraying a swan or a metal music god, you have to do a flying spin that goes into a sit spin and then change to camel and so on.... (not exactly this but just to give the idea of what I'm saying)

 

[karne]

I do agree that there should be some kind of bonus if you do at least one of every jump.

 

[LRK]

I'm all for raising the value of really difficult jumps like quads and 3As much higher - but punishing failure much harsher. That way there would be incentive to go for the harder elements - we might even see some 3As from the ladies again - but the risk would be much higher also, so only those who had a fighting chance of landing the things would go for them. Meaning people who actually land them in practice - obviously competition is different, and you may fall on something you otherwise can land (I mean, we've seen men fall on 2As - I doubt that often happens in practice!), but people who scarcely ever land the jumps even in practice, won't chance it by putting them in.

 

[LRK]

I'm all for raising the value of really difficult jumps like quads and 3As much higher - but punishing failure much harsher. That way there would be incentive to go for the harder elements - we might even see some 3As from the ladies again - but the risk would be much higher also, so only those who had a fighting chance of landing the things would go for them. Meaning people who actually land them in practice - obviously competition is different, and you may fall on something you otherwise can land (I mean, we've seen men fall on 2As - I doubt that often happens in practice!), but people who scarcely ever land the jumps even in practice, won't chance it by putting them in.

ETA - Oh, and I'd like difficult combinations to have a higher value than merely the two jumps added together. Just as there is base value for jumps - why can't there be for specific combinations? Depending on just how difficult a particular combination is?

ETA 2- Blast! Instead of editing, I mistakenly quoted myself instead - sorry about that people! :

 

[alebi]

I want to do a "game" Let's take Hanyu last season FP and try to change the jump layout to fits better his ability and follow the "new" rule. Forget the Zayak and SEQ rule while axels combos are allowed. We could see... first part: 4T / 3A+3A / difficult steps into solo 3Lz / second part with bonus: 4T / beautiful steps into solo 3A / 3Lz+1L+3S / final "easier" 3Lz or Axel. Just add a 3T or 2T/2L anywhere to get the second 2-jumps combo. Is this program easier? No. Does it highlight Hanyu's abilities? I think yes. Can be better executed? Maybe yes. Is it different from what we usually see? A little but at least always a little! He won't get the 10% final bonus because there's no Flip (he sometimes gets edge call) but has more lutzes/axels to fill the gap (and isn't forced to show a 4S until is really able to do it)


We can also take Brown FP, leave one 3Axel attempt for the glory and change all his 2Axels with 3Lzs (enriched by 'tano Lz, difficult and unusual steps before and so on...) and the final 10% bonus for doing every type of jump.

Kovtun can go with every quads he's able to do (staying alive.. ) not forced to add a combo here and there and just do the combos with triples.


I doubt this "rule" would stop Hanyu and Brown progression because there is a moment in your career you need to do something even more harder thanks to your "rivals" (for example change one 4T into 4S or 4L in Hanyu's case) but you're not forced to do it right now, when you're still not sure enough.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I do agree that there should be some kind of bonus if you do at least one of every jump.

Assuming you mean do every jump cleanly then the bonus is, you'll probably win. Female skaters get an inherent bonus by attempting all 5 triples in that usually it means they have the ability to do a 7-triple skate instead of limiting themselves to 6.

 

[TMC]

I'm all for raising the value of really difficult jumps like quads and 3As much higher - but punishing failure much harsher. That way there would be incentive to go for the harder elements - we might even see some 3As from the ladies again - but the risk would be much higher also, so only those who had a fighting chance of landing the things would go for them. Meaning people who actually land them in practice - obviously competition is different, and you may fall on something you otherwise can land (I mean, we've seen men fall on 2As - I doubt that often happens in practice!), but people who scarcely ever land the jumps even in practice, won't chance it by putting them in.

This sounds very reasonable to me, too. :yes:

 

[ice coverage]

That is what I am saying. Do not limit the amount of quads any skater can do in a program. Otherwise, Jason Brown, Abbott, Firus, and the like will never put them in their programs.

I propose an additional deduction to skaters who do not attempt quads in the free skate.

Basically the "penalize the skater" for no quad would only apply to Jason Brown. Josh Farris and Jeremy have attempted quads.

I believe Matt K was referring to Liam Firus (not Josh Farris).
A long battle with injury delayed Liam's progress on jumps, but he has fully recovered and is working on his quad toe.

http://www.skatecanada.ca/2013/12/liam-firus-finding-his-way-along-road-sochi/
http://www.goldenskate.com/2014/09/liam-firus/​

As one of Liam's best friends, Max Aaron is a source of support and inspiration. They will compete together at Skate Canada International.

http://www.skatecanada.ca/2014/02/olympian-profile-liam-firus/​

 

[gkelly]

I tried to answer last night and lost the post.

To summarize the points I was trying to make:

As I understand, the point of the Zayak rule since 1983 was to encourage variety of skills -- not to allow skaters to rack up points (metaphorical under 6.0, i.e., to impress the judges) by executing the same difficult skill (triple jump) over and over again. At least by requiring a repeat jump to be in combination at least one of the times, they're requiring an additional skill as well -- the ability to do it in combination.

That was the first rule toward a "well-balanced" program -- now we have a lot more.

Under 6.0, the rule about repeated triples (and eventually quads) neither time in combination was that the second one wouldn't count at all and that there would be an 0.1 deduction. But it was impossible to know whether the judges actually applied it as written.
E.g., did Ilya Kulik lose the 1996 world title because he did two solo 3F, or because five judges thought Eldredge was better overall and would still have thought so if Kulik had added a 2T on the back of one of those flips. We have no way to know.

Recently, as CanadianSkaterGuy said, under IJS the rule had been to treat repeated jumps not in combination as sequences: +SEQ code and 80% base value on the second attempt.

This was sometimes a problem if a skater was unable to tack a second jump on the second attempt at a triple or quad but tried to make up for it later. The +SEQ jump filled a combo/sequence slot, so a later good combo worth lots of points might end up needing a nonexistent fourth combo/sequence slot and getting no points at all.

Brand new rule this summer: +SEQ only applies if the skater actually attempts the second jump in a combo/sequence but a stumble/extra steps between the two parts of the element invalidates the last jump of the sequence.

For two of the same solo jump, as of now the new code is +REP for repeat, and the second one earns 70% of base value. However, a skater is free to plan two such solo jumps and accept the 70% discount, and still have room for 3 other combos or sequences.

This interpretation of the Zayak rule essentially says, you're allowed to repeat two triples or quad. If you do at least one of the repeated jumps in combination (i.e., show an additional skill related to it), you get full value. If you repeat the same skill twice without showing that extra skill, you only get partial credit the second time you do the same thing.


There is no requirement to do level 4 spins and steps any more than there's a requirement to do quads. There are lots of ways to rack up points and skaters should choose whatever works best for them.

Unfortunately, many choose to attempt the highest spin and step levels and jump content they have the remotest chance of executing and don't worry so much about quality, clean programs, or coherent programs. If there were stronger rewards for those qualities through GOEs and PCS, we might see more programs focused on quality with lower base values -- including fewer quads.

 

[unico]

There is no requirement to do level 4 spins and steps any more than there's a requirement to do quads. There are lots of ways to rack up points and skaters should choose whatever works best for them.

Unfortunately, many choose to attempt the highest spin and step levels and jump content they have the remotest chance of executing and don't worry so much about quality, clean programs, or coherent programs. If there were stronger rewards for those qualities through GOEs and PCS, we might see more programs focused on quality with lower base values -- including fewer quads.

There is no requirement, but I think there's this mentality, especially for the top tier of skaters, that they need to be attempting to get level 4s on all of their elements. Even though Javier Fernandez is one of the top skaters in the world in the men's division, should he always be trying to get the highest levels on his elements at the expense of doing simpler footwork/spins that would better highlight his strengths? And I don't remember which competition, but I think I remember Robin Cousins saying about Patrick Chan "He left points on the table! He only got a level 1 on his choreographic sequence!" (lol, nevermind that he probably got very very good GOE on that ChSq). It's almost a stigma that low levels = not trying hard enough, regardless of how well that element might be executed (or in Cousins' case, if there isn't even more than just one level). My idea behind having only two levels is so that maybe skaters won't feel as pressured to go for lv4 footwork when they're only maybe comfortable at that time with lv2. Psychologically, I think the impact of 1 vs 2 is a lot less than a 2 vs 4, or a 1 vs 3. And it's not like skaters can't show even more complex footwork/difficult turns in their TR to showcase their skating abilities even if the requirements are loosened up a bit.

Of course, I have no idea if only 2 levels would lessen the pressure to go for levels over GOE, but hopefully I explained my way of thinking a bit.

I'm not sure how well-executed StSq/spins would increase PCS in a definitive/quantitative/understandable way, but I agree that the GOE factoring should be increased so as to encourage quality. Right now, the GOE factoring for StSqs are 0.5 (level 1-3) and 0.7 (level 4), and all spins levels GOE use 0.5. If there was greater incentive of higher GOE bonus then maybe we wouldn't have to see as many skaters labor uncomfortably through their elements.

 

[centerpt1]

I do agree that there should be some kind of bonus if you do at least one of every jump.

I do agree with this.

Also, 3A's should be worth more

 

[Meoima]

I do agree that there should be some kind of bonus if you do at least one of every jump.

Even if some men get wrong edge on the Flip?

 

[karne]

Even if some men get wrong edge on the Flip?

Well, the trick is to make the bonus not worth more than what you'd lose on an edge. So then it becomes the skater's choice to lose points for the edge or risk going for the bonus.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Obviously you would not risk going for the bonus. If you had an error on any jumping pass, then the bonus is lost... compounded by the skater performing a jump with an edge call.

I think it's important to maintain the ability for skaters to try what they feel most comfortable executing. If a 3L hurts Yu Na's back, she shouldn't feel compelled to perform it.

That being said, a high technical standard should still be maintained.

 

[Mathman]

Basically the "penalize the skater" for no quad would only apply to Jason Brown. Josh Farris and Jeremy have attempted quads.

It would actually apply to 99.9% of all skaters.

 

[Mathman]

I tried to answer last night and lost the post.

"Autosave" is supposed to save lost posts. I have found that sometimes it doesn't work if the post takes too long to compose, provoking autosave to time out. Instead of composing at leisure in the text box, an alternative is to compose the post in another document, then paste into GS. It is not the length of the post that's the problem (so I guess) but the time that the dialogue box is left open.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It would actually apply to 99.9% of all skaters.

Hah.

Actually a skater not doing a quad is already penalizing themselves 4 points or more by opting for 3Z or lower. (One assumes that in a FS, an elite male skater would at least attempt 2 axels if they're not attempting a quad).

It's like deducting a female skater for no 3-3, when the reality is, she's already leaving about 3-4 points on the table. Although in many cases, a poorly executed 3-3 (especially if UR) will actually garner few points than a well-executed 3-2. Wagner would have been 5th in Worlds 2014 over Gold/Suzuki had she opted for a simpler 3F+2T combo in her SP.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

"Autosave" is supposed to save lost posts. I have found that sometimes it doesn't work if the post takes too long to compose, provoking autosave to time out. Instead of composing at leisure in the text box, an alternative is to compose the post in another document, then paste into GS. It is not the length of the post that's the problem (so I guess) but the time that the dialogue box is left open.

If you set your browser to remember your password it won't log you out

 

[Mrs. P]

It would actually apply to 99.9% of all skaters.

Touche.