Skaters who was 1st after SP and falling in 4th place at world ?

[Mathman]

Yeah, with factored placements you had money in the bank before the long program even started. To tumble far not only would you have to have a bad day in the free, but your closest rivals would have to falter, too (only not quite so bad).

For instance to go from first to last among six competitors it would have to go

1st and 6th (6th overall)
2nd and 5th (5th overall)
3rd and 4th (4th overall)
4th and 3rd (3rd overall)
5th and 2nd (2nd overall)
6th and 1st (gold medal overall)

One of the selling points of the IJS was that it allowed for a more nail-biting contest, since it would be possible for a skater to come from way behind with a brilliant finish. In principle you could score 0 points in the first segment and still come on like gangbusters with a 400-point skate-of-the-century in the finale.

 

[4everchan]

Well.. scores are still factored in IJS.

More elements in LP.

PCS is worth twice more in the LP. So it is still pretty much 1/3 and 2/3.

Easy to see with scores like 100sp
200 LP
300 total

 

[Mathman]

^ Much different concept, though. In IJS you get the total number of points that you earn no matter which segment you earn them in. In 6.0 you get "points" for placing ahead of somebody else in each segment separately. It could happen that the SP is a dud all the way around with nobody doing much of anything, but you still get a whole #1 placement to factor in.

Like in hockey, you win by scoring the most goals for the whole game, not by winning two periods out of three.

 

[lesnar001]

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I think there was a competition where Tatiana Malinina went from 7th to 1st?

And I think that Angela Nikodinov once went from 1st to 7th. She didn't fall, but I think she may have "popped" every jump in the LP.

 

[TontoK]

My favorite event for analyzing placements vs points is 2021 Finlandia Mens Competition.

Jason Brown won it with a SP placement of 2 and a LP placement of 5.

Kolyada finished in silver with placements of 3 and 2.

Keegan Messing won the SP, finished 7th in the free and ended up 4th.

Matteo Rizzo won the LP, and paired with his SP placement of 19 finished 6th.

It was quite the men's event.

 

[TontoK]

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I think there was a competition where Tatiana Malinina went from 7th to 1st?

When Elaine Zayak won her WC, there was something similar. She came from pretty far back to win, but it took a lot of placement juggling to do it. I think the deal was sealed when Katarina Witt finished 2nd in the free program, which pushed someone else down the ladder in placements, and Elaine snuck it out. Of course, this was back in the days of school figures, so the mental math was much more difficult to comprehend.

Edit: This was in the early stages of Witt's career - I don't think she was a strong medal contender coming in, and she certainly had not achieved legendary status yet.

 

[4everchan]

^ Much different concept, though. In IJS you get the total number of points that you earn no matter which segment you earn them in. In 6.0 you get "points" for placing ahead of somebody else in each segment separately. It could happen that the SP is a dud all the way around with nobody doing much of anything, but you still get a whole #1 placement to factor in.

Like in hockey, you win by scoring the most goals for the whole game, not by winning two periods out of three.

yes and no... you know i agree that in 6.0, the 0.6, 1.2, 1.8 points a skater would get after the SP meant something else than the 100 or 102 or 103.29 a skater would get after the SP in the ordinal system, the first 3 skaters were pretty much tied because any of these would be able to win the prize if they won the LP... in the IJS a skater who is in 18th place but at 94 points after the SP would still have a chance to win it all i mean we saw what Adam did . But the maths still speak for themselves...

top skaters at worlds


Yuma SP 106 = 60+ 46 out of possible 50
Ilia SP 106 = 61 + 45

(I rounded the numbers okay

Ilia LP 227 = 137 +90 out of possible 100 (pretty much exactly double in PCS... in his case the TES is a bit more than double.
Yuma LP 203 = 110 + 93


Ilia 106+ 227 = 333 SP = 31%
Yuma 106+ 203 = 309 SP = 34%

I could have looked at other skaters who had roughly equal performances across both programs too like Jason and Lukas... I am pretty sure I would have found similar ratios.

the PCS factoring and the number of elements performed does make the SP equivalent to roughly a third of final score.

In any case, that's all i was after... there are enough threads about changing the PCS factoring or the number of TES elements to balance the PCS and TES so I won't get into this deeper... other than saying that in 6.0 the artistic mark was TRULY 50% of the final score and it's no longer the case in IJS.

 

[Mathman]

When Elaine Zayak won her WC, there was something similar. She came from pretty far back to win, but it took a lot of placement juggling to do it. I think the deal was sealed when Katarina Witt finished 2nd in the free program, which pushed someone else down the ladder in placements, and Elaine snuck it out.

That was another weakness of the 6.0 judging system. In many contests you can't win no matter what you do unless some other skater helps you out by stealing some ordinals from your rival.

Zayak went from 10th in the SP (4th in figures) to 1st in the LP, while Witt (age 16) was 1st in the SP and 2nd in the LP, but only 9th in figures.

 

[labgoat]

That was another weakness of the 6.0 judging system. In many contests you can't win no matter what you do unless some other skater helps you out by stealing some ordinals from your rival.

Zayak went from 10th in the SP (4th in figures) to 1st in the LP, while Witt (age 16) was 1st in the SP and 2nd in the LP, but only 9th in figures.

Elaine had a strong short going but ended up 10th in the short after a mishap on the final move a flying sitspin.
Her skate is at 1 hr 38 min mark

1981 World Figure Skating Championships Ladies Short

youtu.be

 

[icetug]

Shoma appears to have followed in Javi's footsteps--as a two-time world champion, at the 2017 World Championships Javi was 1st in SP and 6th in FP, finishing 4th overall.
The following season, Javi won Olympic bronze.

 

[Skater Boy]

Another example is Carolina Kostner at 2018 Worlds. She was 1st in SP, 5th in FP for 4th overall. I looked up that comp thinking that might have been Zagitova's stats, but she was 2nd and 7th for 5th overall.

That was the competition where Katelyn Osmond was 4th and 1st for 1st overall.

But the most remarkable come-from-behind skater was Wakaba Higuchi who was 8th and 2nd for 2nd overall.

Sakoto Miahara was just boring with 3rd, 3rd, and 3rd.

I think the most remarkable come back was Adam this year at world's wow. And we have seen skaters like Nathan also come back Much easier now with the scoring system than the 6.0 system though Brian Orser; elaine zayak and Denise Biellman were good examples of skaters who would come back from way down. Also this may show there is less pressure coming from behind. Though I do think the top skaters get used to being in the lead and the pressures

 

[Mathman]

Elaine had a strong short going but ended up 10th in the short after a mishap on the final move a flying sitspin.
Her skate is at 1 hr 38 min mark

1981 World Figure Skating Championships Ladies Short

youtu.be

Thanks for posting that video. There were lots of interesting performances besides the medealists'. The very first skater did a Rippon jump (both hands over her head - and in fact, a lot of ballet-type positions with raised arms. But she only got scores in the 4.5 range. And in fact, even though this was the world championship, a few skaters got marks in th low 3s.This was a tough panel. As far as Zayak's miscue, I guess in those days the judges were merciless about mistakes on required elements in the SP.

By the way, there were two different panels of judges. One panel judged figures and SP, and then a completely new panel came on to do the LP. Evidently they regarded the compulsory figures and the SP (technical program) together and then the free skating was held to different standards and expectations.

 

[NanaPat]

I think the most remarkable come back was Adam this year at world's wow. And we have seen skaters like Nathan also come back Much easier now with the scoring system than the 6.0 system though Brian Orser; elaine zayak and Denise Biellman were good examples of skaters who would come back from way down. Also this may show there is less pressure coming from behind. Though I do think the top skaters get used to being in the lead and the pressures

I was just talking about that one competition. Kostner and Zagitova fell; Osmond and Higuchi rose. Higuchi rose more than Osmond, though Osmond won and Higuchi was second.

 

[Mathman]

My favorite event for analyzing placements vs points is 2021 Finlandia Mens Competition.

Jason Brown won it with a SP placement of 2 and a LP placement of 5.

Kolyada finished in silver with placements of 3 and 2.

Keegan Messing won the SP, finished 7th in the free and ended up 4th.

Matteo Rizzo won the LP, and paired with his SP placement of 19 finished 6th.

It was quite the men's event.

But for all that, the differences in final results under IJS compared to 6.0 are minimal. Under 6.0 factored placements (with tie-breakers) the top ten would be exactly the same except that Brown and Kolyada would switch places at 1-2 and Britschgi and Guarino Sabati would interchange 8th and 9th.

What hurt Kolyada under IJS is that the segment scores for the LP were bunched closely together for the top five five, but in the SP Brown and Messing were 10 points ahead of the field. Thus Brown’s total points trumped Kolyada’s superior factored placements.

 

[JeanA]

Nancy Kerrigan was 1st in the SP at 1993 Worlds and dropped like a lead balloon to 5th place overall.

 

[Magill]

Has anyone mentioned here Sasha Trusova's comeback from 12th in SP to 3rd overall, podium and bronze medal at Worlds 2021? This was the real showcase of the point value of quads, landed or not

 

[Mathman]

Has anyone mentioned here Sasha Trusova's comeback from 12th in SP to 3rd overall, podium and bronze medal at Worlds 2021? This was the real showcase of the point value of quads, landed or not

Trusova's SP was startling in another respect, too. She got 3rd in PCS. It was errors on jumps that torpedoed her.

 

[macy]

My favorite event for analyzing placements vs points is 2021 Finlandia Mens Competition.

Jason Brown won it with a SP placement of 2 and a LP placement of 5.

Kolyada finished in silver with placements of 3 and 2.

Keegan Messing won the SP, finished 7th in the free and ended up 4th.

Matteo Rizzo won the LP, and paired with his SP placement of 19 finished 6th.

It was quite the men's event.

thats wild lol

 

[TontoK]

thats wild lol

I think that the top 5 free skates were pretty close to one another score-wise. But it was fun to try to sort the ordinals.

Other fun fact. If I'm remembering correctly, Jason and Keegan tied for the short program lead. A dead-even tie. Keegan won the tie-breaker, but of course in IJS, it really doesn't matter. They had a gap on the field, and for Jason, that was enough to win with a fifth-place free program. Keegan was not so lucky and he fell off the podium.

 

[el henry]

I think that the top 5 free skates were pretty close to one another score-wise. But it was fun to try to sort the ordinals.

Other fun fact. If I'm remembering correctly, Jason and Keegan tied for the short program lead. A dead-even tie. Keegan won the tie-breaker, but of course in IJS, it really doesn't matter. They had a gap on the field, and for Jason, that was enough to win with a fifth-place free program. Keegan was not so lucky and he fell off the podium.

The tie-breaker was TES, as I recall. Keegan had a higher TES score. He said at the time, before the FS, that he thought the tie breaker was ridiculous and it should have stayed a tie. I always admired that.