The "what the heck?" programs

[WeakAnkles]

Malicious? Like they sat down to plan the program and thought, "We're a World Championship team. How can we go about offending the entire planet and destroy our reputation?"

I agree it was an offensive program to very many people, and I found the concept and packaging tasteless and lacking refinement.

But that they set out to do that on purpose? You really believe that?

I'm much more inclined to think they set out to do something original (I don't remember a program to aboriginal music before, although I've seen some well done since) and they just totally missed the mark.

A team can try what they think is an innovative program. Heck, I'm all for experimenting.

The thing about experiments is that quite a few of them are outright failures.

When you perform a program and are immediately faced with a barrage of well-warranted criticism that said program is offensive and insensitive to the nth degree, the best course of action would be to say, Well that was an experiment that failed utterly, drop it, and move on to something else.

Spending the rest of the season trying to defend said program is simply pouring salt into an open wound. They deserve every bit of scorn heaped on them. And then some.

Even MORE scorn should be heaped on the judges for rewarding them. Much more scorn.

 

[VenusHalley]

Two programs I love never fail to have me on the floor laughing... but qualify as "what the heck"--

Debi Thomas EX 1987 Worlds
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CxsUqYBNWKI

Julian Yee EX Nebelhorn 2017
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-6d5_nOt3ZI

But those are not what the heck... but programs do exactly what they are supposed to do. Debbi's ex is friggin iconic and hilarious and you have to actually have some mad skating skills to skate purposedly like a mess and not to splat all over.

And the this is the first time I seen Julian Zhi Jie YEE .... but it is brilliant and he does good job parodying certain skating styles.

These are programs where you laugh because it is funny, not because it is embarrassing.

 

[VenusHalley]

To me this is offensive and what the heck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3FsrjBASNY 'Tatiana Navka and Andrei Bukovski' and their holocaust on ice

 

[andromache]

Actually, nationality did. Because you were told by three separate Australians (bearing in mind the culture being mocked was Indigenous Australian) and then proceeded to explain why it wasn't malicious as though you knew best. As though you, an American, knew better than the Australians about something offensive to Indigenous Australian culture.

100% agree. It is for Australians (preferably those of indigenous heritage) to decide if something parodying indigenous Australian culture is offensive. I'm going to hazard a guess that most Americans aren't knowledgeable enough to make a judgment on that.

ETA: Sometimes we Americans just have to stay in our lane. Nothing wrong with being told to do so.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

100% agree. It is for Australians (preferably those of indigenous heritage) to decide if something parodying indigenous Australian culture is offensive. I'm going to hazard a guess that most Americans aren't knowledgeable enough to make a judgment on that.

ETA: Sometimes we Americans just have to stay in our lane. Nothing wrong with being told to do so.

“Most” yet many are and did.

 

[ice coverage]

Two programs I love never fail to have me on the floor laughing... but qualify as "what the heck"--

Debi Thomas EX 1987 Worlds
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CxsUqYBNWKI

Julian Yee EX Nebelhorn 2017
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-6d5_nOt3ZI

But those are not what the heck... but programs do exactly what they are supposed to do. Debbi's ex is friggin iconic and hilarious and you have to actually have some mad skating skills to skate purposedly like a mess and not to splat all over.

And the this is the first time I seen Julian Zhi Jie YEE .... but it is brilliant and he does good job parodying certain skating styles.

These are programs where you laugh because it is funny, not because it is embarrassing.

elbkup did not say that these programs are "embarrassing."

In the U.S., "what the heck" often does *not* mean "embarrassing" or anything negative.

Given that elbkup said that s/he loves these programs, I think that her/his intended meaning was "surprising -- in a good way ", which is one of the common meanings of "what the heck."

If my roommate had planned a surprise party for me, and a large group shouted, "Surprise!!!" when I (expecting an empty apartment) walked in the door, it would be perfectly appropriate for me to react with, "What the heck?!?" as an expression of surprise and delight.

 

[elbkup]

elbkup did not say that these programs are "embarrassing."

In the U.S., "what the heck" often does *not* mean "embarrassing" or anything negative.

Given that elbkup said that s/he loves these programs, I think that her/his intended meaning was "surprising -- in a good way ", which is one of the common meanings of "what the heck."

Exactly what I meant Icecoverage!! Thanks! My first response to both programs was "What the Heck?!!" In a totally good way.... both were alot of fun to watch!!

 

[VenusHalley]

elbkup did not say that these programs are "embarrassing."

In the U.S., "what the heck" often does *not* mean "embarrassing" or anything negative.

Given that elbkup said that s/he loves these programs, I think that her/his intended meaning was "surprising -- in a good way ", which is one of the common meanings of "what the heck."

If my roommate had planned a surprise party for me, and a large group shouted, "Surprise!!!" when I (expecting an empty apartment) walked in the door, it would be perfectly appropriate for me to react with, "What the heck?!?" as an expression of surprise and delight.

Okay, I see that now.

I was just surprised to see those two programs among meow-meow-meow and Goofy Aborgines

 

[elbkup]

Okay, I see that now.

I was just surprised to see those two programs among meow-meow-meow and Goofy Aborgines

I totally understand where you are coming from... Debbie and Julian EX's were totally entertaining.. wish we could actually see Julian's EX's more often; he is remarkable and relaxes completely when he is not competing, tho I adore his competition skates especially after seeing him skate at Worlds in Boston 2016... he should have placed higher imho...

 

[Seren]

Stephane’s Cat Program 100%. I will never not be confused by what is going on.

 

[el henry]

I would disagree that “most” Americans don’t know enough about that vile and ridiculous supposed to be Aboriginal ID program.

Most Americans on this Board have criticized it with every fiber of their being. I know that I have, multiple times, and I have also posted many times in the past that we must defer to our Australian friends on this issue. Almost every other poster here who identifies as American that I have seen has done the same.

For me, it does no good to attribute a bad idea that one disagrees with to someone’s nationality. Sometimes it’s a just a bad idea.

And that we should give that offensive piece of you know what an “E for effort” because they were presumably thinking outside the box:eeking: I’m sorry, I think that is a baaaaaad idea. Some programs should stay deep and buried in the box. That was Exhibit A. :noshake:

 

[TontoK]

100% agree. It is for Australians (preferably those of indigenous heritage) to decide if something parodying indigenous Australian culture is offensive. I'm going to hazard a guess that most Americans aren't knowledgeable enough to make a judgment on that.

ETA: Sometimes we Americans just have to stay in our lane. Nothing wrong with being told to do so.

I have never said the program was inoffensive or that I liked it. I have said that I don't think that was their intent.

I don't have a lane as far as sport goes. By all means, adhere to whatever restrictions you set for yourself. Just don't attempt to impose them on me. I reject that in total.

 

[TontoK]

I would disagree that “most” Americans don’t know enough about that vile and ridiculous supposed to be Aboriginal ID program.

Most Americans on this Board have criticized it with every fiber of their being. I know that I have, multiple times, and I have also posted many times in the past that we must defer to our Australian friends on this issue. Almost every other poster here who identifies as American that I have seen has done the same.

For me, it does no good to attribute a bad idea that one disagrees with to someone’s nationality. Sometimes it’s a just a bad idea.

And that we should give that offensive piece of you know what an “E for effort” because they were presumably thinking outside the box:eeking: I’m sorry, I think that is a baaaaaad idea. Some programs should stay deep and buried in the box. That was Exhibit A. :noshake:

El, you know how fond I am of you, but I disagree with this. Strongly.

In one breath, you disqualify yourself and all other Americans from voicing an independent viewpoint because we are not Australian, and in the next you begin to share your opinion on the matter anyway.

It's an inconsistent stance.

Edit: Or is it your position that we may have an opinion, but only if it conforms to every one else's opinion?

 

[andromache]

El, you know how fond I am of you, but I disagree with this. Strongly.

In one breath, you disqualify yourself and all other Americans from voicing an independent viewpoint because we are not Australian, and in the next you begin to share your opinion on the matter anyway.

It's an inconsistent stance.

Edit: Or is it your position that we may have an opinion, but only if it conforms to every one else's opinion?

Having an opinion on a subject that one is not knowledgeable about (such as the historic oppression of and discrimination against Australian indigenous people) may sometimes mean that your opinion is ill-informed.

Everyone is free to share their opinion, but people with actual knowledge of the topic (such as the 3 Australians who have posted in this thread) are ultimately going to have something better to say.

 

[el henry]

El, you know how fond I am of you, but I disagree with this. Strongly.

In one breath, you disqualify yourself and all other Americans from voicing an independent viewpoint because we are not Australian, and in the next you begin to share your opinion on the matter anyway.

It's an inconsistent stance.

Edit: Or is it your position that we may have an opinion, but only if it conforms to every one else's opinion?

I am sorry if I was unclear, Tonto, and we can agree to disagree.

I meant that in determining if a particular representation is offensive to the Aboriginal peoples of Australia, I would defer to our Australian friends. I am not Australian, nor am I aboriginal. They would have far more knowledge about their land, their history, and their Nations, and what is offensive to them, than I do. Or, I would imagine, anyone who is not Australian unless that person has a PhD in the study of Aboriginal peoples of Australia.

I base my opinion in large part of what I have learned from the Australians who speak of this program, and who describe it in those terms. And frankly, I don't think you need to be Australian or Aboriginal to see the issue, but I do base it in large part on that.

As a contrary example, Davis & White are largely lauded for their Bollywood program. From what I understand, they consulted with South Asian experts and South Asian dance teachers and incorporated realistic, respectful movements in their program. So I defer to those experts in South Asia who say it is not offensive. And it's a great program

I also think it is wrong to attribute a differing opinion, such as yours, to being American. After all, the two of us are good examples of Americans who do not share the same opinion

 

[TontoK]

Having an opinion on a subject that one is not knowledgeable about (such as the historic oppression of and discrimination against Australian indigenous people) may sometimes mean that your opinion is ill-informed.

Everyone is free to share their opinion, but people with actual knowledge of the topic (such as the 3 Australians who have posted in this thread) are ultimately going to have something better to say.

Thank you for this respectful response. I've tried to be respectful of others in sharing my views, which have clearly annoyed several contributors. And that is certainly not my intent.

I am not unaware of the dreadful plight and the historic shameful treatment of the indigenous Australian people.

My position is that the ice dancers did not intentionally set out to offend anyone.

Others have rightfully pointed out that they could have changed the program after its initial outing was criticized. And, I admit they could have.

It's a fair point to make. Why didn't they?

My supposition, based on nothing more than trying to put myself in their position, is this... They danced themselves into a box. They'd invested a lot of their preparation time into building and developing the program, at the same time working on their free program. The season is underway at the debut, and perhaps they didn't think they could develop a new one in time for an Olympic season. And as others have pointed out, they weren't heavily penalized by the judges - or at least they weren't to the point where they had absolutely no other option than to scrap the program altogether. Their decision was to stick with it and bear the criticism. Rightly or wrongly, they won a medal.

PS. I think they wrongly won the medal, but that's my opinion. The judges did not agree, and I have no inclination to review the competition.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Having an opinion on a subject that one is not knowledgeable about (such as the historic oppression of and discrimination against Australian indigenous people) may sometimes mean that your opinion is ill-informed.

Everyone is free to share their opinion, but people with actual knowledge of the topic (such as the 3 Australians who have posted in this thread) are ultimately going to have something better to say.

I'm sorry but this just encourages the worst kind of tribalism.

Some things are just wrong. Any program that reduces an entire culture to a cartoon is at best misguided and at worst mean-spirited. And you don't need to live in that culture or cheek by jowl with it to say so.

And to imply that ipso facto, if you don't live in that culture then you can't be informed about it misses the entire point of a little thing called "Education."

 

[Lamente Ariane]

Stephane’s Cat Program 100%. I will never not be confused by what is going on.

I just watched that for the first time thanks to this thread and couldn’t stop laughing. Amazing.

 

[VenusHalley]

Having an opinion on a subject that one is not knowledgeable about (such as the historic oppression of and discrimination against Australian indigenous people) may sometimes mean that your opinion is ill-informed.

Everyone is free to share their opinion, but people with actual knowledge of the topic (such as the 3 Australians who have posted in this thread) are ultimately going to have something better to say.

I admit that I do not know so much about AUstralian aboriginal tribes... but to me that program was very cringey and offensive. Those leaves as clothing, the cartoonish costume... the goofy poses and exagerated goofy faces... it seems they were going for the haha-funny-goofy vibe. I can be tolerant to borrowing another culture if I feel at least speck of respect behind it, love for the said culture, not attempt to be funny/edgy or worse a mere cash grab.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned Yagudin’s “One Banana” program

I have to say that one came straight to mind as far as Ex skates go. I still can't figure out if it's racist or a loving tribute to bananas. :scratch3:

Also I can't go past Plushy's ex with the giant head: https://youtu.be/6wmN6LzDxkE I mean what is this? I love it though