Unlikely age limits will change much?

[moriel]

Regardless of the age restriction battle, what I would like is to see the ladies have long careers. I want the top junior skaters to have a lasting legacy and not for them to be placed by the wayside because the technique they've learned in juniors didn't serve them after reaching puberty.

I want the likes of Zagitova, Medvedeva, Kosternaia, and Trusova to have success throughout their career and for them to be supported as they move into seniors and be looked as investments for the future of Russian skating for multiple Olympic cycles. Four years from now, I would like to see all of Eteri's current juniors remain relevant and be competitive with her next crop of incredible Russian junior skaters.

I personally would not want ladies to have long careers.
If i had a daughter skating on that level, i would want her to retire around 18, personally. Why?
1. Risk of injury. Long competitive career means more injuries, and I would not want my child to retire in same state as Plushenko, for example.
2. Skating is not necessarely a long term profession. Ok, you have a long career and retire at 30, and then what? Be a coach? And if you dont want to be a coach? 18 sounds like a good time to focus on university rather than competitive skating, and allows the kid to easily chose any career or profession, not just shows/coaching.

For very same reason, I dont mind if skaters retire early, in fact i think it is better for their health and wellbeing.

 

[moriel]

Well tbf 'They' weren't totally wrong. Plenty of skaters from the first generation of triple triple jumpers have admitted to chronic pain and joint issues. I don't think they should raise the age but I also don't think we should be trying to minimize the danger and potential consequences of what they are doing either because I'm sure they haven't done any studies on the women yet but I do know that I've seen that for the men falling out of a quad can put the same pressure on the body as falling from a third story building and no matter how we package it that can't be good on any body on a constant basis, let alone on the little growing unfused hips and pelvises of preteen girls. We don't know yet but I do feel it is kinda a 'hope for the best, expect the worst' situation when dealing with quads. For both men and women, boys and girls.

Age limit will not affect the training of those jumps.
Kids will still train them regardless of the age limits, and juniors currently are more of a bloodbath than seniors, just saying, so there is actually more, not less pressure.

 

[andromache]

Should children compete against adults in Olympic sports?

IMO, it's a difficult question. We need to protect children from being exploited by the adults in their lives for fame and fortune, overtraining, etc. Kids shouldn't have full-time jobs - being an elite athlete is 100% a full-time job. Is that okay? We would never let a kid in 2018 work in a factory for 8 hours a day, but it's okay to train for your sport 8 hours a day? Kids should get to do a lot of different sports and hobbies and not just one.

But we'll never be able to control what parents encourage or force their kids to do.

Also, the line between childhood and adulthood isn't always clear so any specific age limit would be arbitrary.

 

[draqq]

I personally would not want ladies to have long careers.
If i had a daughter skating on that level, i would want her to retire around 18, personally. Why?
1. Risk of injury. Long competitive career means more injuries, and I would not want my child to retire in same state as Plushenko, for example.
2. Skating is not necessarely a long term profession. Ok, you have a long career and retire at 30, and then what? Be a coach? And if you dont want to be a coach? 18 sounds like a good time to focus on university rather than competitive skating, and allows the kid to easily chose any career or profession, not just shows/coaching.

For very same reason, I dont mind if skaters retire early, in fact i think it is better for their health and wellbeing.

I feel the opposite. I want ladies to have long careers in skating if they wish to, and if they want to skate shows or be a coach after they retire, then why not? If I had daughter, I would support their decision and let them weigh the pros/cons of that decision. They can choose to focus on university and skating at the same time as well. And I would want the ladies to have strong technique from juniors that can carry throughout their career if they choose to continue after juniors. I wouldn't want to force them out of figure skating if that's the path they wish to pursue.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I feel the opposite. I want ladies to have long careers in skating if they wish to, and if they want to skate shows or be a coach after they retire, then why not? If I had daughter, I would support their decision and let them weigh the pros/cons of that decision. They can choose to focus on university and skating at the same time as well. And I would want the ladies to have strong technique from juniors that can carry throughout their career if they choose to continue after juniors. I wouldn't want to force them out of figure skating if that's the path they wish to pursue.

Too bad NCAA shows little interest in the sport. I think having a structured and well funded competitive feild at the college level would be the single biggest step to increase the average age of competitive skating and even offer an additional avenue for skaters to continue down. Heck..maybe some could start their skating career after college if training goes well like other sports. I doubt too many can afford to go to college and train though the way it is now. Heck..training alone often costs as much as a semester at college. I know several skaters who stopped training once they went to college because of the costs alone. A couple moved to Colorado to do both but that’s no small feat and was a serious drain.

From personal experience...most skaters I know are ready to stop competing by the time they hit somewhere between 17-19.

 

[colormyworld240]

A part of it is the competition from junior ladies which I don't have a problem with. The other part is that the juniors becoming seniors inevitably grow up and have to carefully rework their jump technique and that process takes much longer if they don't have the proper technique from their junior days to fit their changing bodies. Thus, they have inconsistent showings while they are making the adjustments but then are passed over and replaced and then forgotten/retire. This process isn't new of course, as it happens in Japan and America as well; it's just that this is more pronounced currently in Russia.

Some of them have questionable technique, but I think growing up affects all jumping technique, and I don't know if inconsistencies can be attributed to bad technique. I think puberty hits you hard, i.e. you grow a lot, it's going to take a season or two to get your jumps back in control, and by then you would have been passed by the next wave of juniors. Someone like Radionova grew a lot, and it's been difficult for her. And then there's Medvedeva who didn't grow an enormous amount, who's always had the wonky technique but dealt with puberty fine and was still as consistent as 18. Unfortunately she was injured, but injuries happen in sport, and she became a little more inconsistent after, but that was inevitable as there's no way you can be consistent through your whole career. Tuktamysheva has the best jumping technique, but even that couldn't help her be consistent and she was passed for younger skaters for many seasons now. So yes, it's always better to have good technique, but I'm not sure that's the biggest player in long careers for the Russian ladies. I don't think Eteri's juniors, or any other Russian juniors their age, will be relevant after Beijing, as there will probably be a new wave of better, younger skaters to take their place. In their case, it's probably smart to plan for the present and focus on their current quad instead of looking at having at career past their 20s, given the competition.

 

[dante]

We need to protect children from being exploited by the adults in their lives for fame and fortune, overtraining, etc. Kids shouldn't have full-time jobs - being an elite athlete is 100% a full-time job. Is that okay? We would never let a kid in 2018 work in a factory for 8 hours a day, but it's okay to train for your sport 8 hours a day?

On the other hand, people are not born hard-working, they are raised so, mainly by the personal example of their parents (that's why so many famous skaters are children of athletes), but also by working themselves. If hard training comes easily for a child, it would be a disservice to slow down his development while he can still adapt to such pace. If it's too hard for him, I think he simply won't be accepted to an elite school where he could actually work 8 hours a day.

It's also worth noting that kids in factories didn't earn millions and a world fame.

 

[andromache]

On the other hand, people are not born hard-working, they are raised so, mainly by the personal example of their parents (that's why so many famous skaters are children of athletes), but also by working themselves. If hard training comes easily for a child, it would be a disservice to slow down his development while he can still adapt to such pace. If it's too hard for him, I think he simply won't be accepted to an elite school where he could actually work 8 hours a day.

It's also worth noting that kids in factories didn't earn millions and a world fame.

Kids can work hard and still be kids. That doesn't mean that they should have what is essentially a full-time job before they're even in their teens.

Only a very few lucky athletes get millions and world fame. The rest - many of whom work just as hard even if they aren't as good - do not. That's not saying that there isn't a LOT of value in seriously pursuing a sport when you're a child! There is obviously a lot of value. But we should also think about the negative ramifications.

 

[moriel]

Too bad NCAA shows little interest in the sport. I think having a structured and well funded competitive feild at the college level would be the single biggest step to increase the average age of competitive skating and even offer an additional avenue for skaters to continue down. Heck..maybe some could start their skating career after college if training goes well like other sports. I doubt too many can afford to go to college and train though the way it is now. Heck..training alone often costs as much as a semester at college. I know several skaters who stopped training once they went to college because of the costs alone. A couple moved to Colorado to do both but that’s no small feat and was a serious drain.

From personal experience...most skaters I know are ready to stop competing by the time they hit somewhere between 17-19.

BTW, costs is another factor why I am strongly against any age change.
Simply because a junior earns about 15% of what the same skater would get on senior level. There are less competitions for juniors, and the prize money is MUCH smaller too.
Juniors also have less sponsors and less shows invitations (since less people watch junior competitions and nobody knows them).

I see how increasing the age limit would lead to many talented skaters quitting simply because $$$

 

[moriel]

Kids can work hard and still be kids. That doesn't mean that they should have what is essentially a full-time job before they're even in their teens.

Only a very few lucky athletes get millions and world fame. The rest - many of whom work just as hard even if they aren't as good - do not. That's not saying that there isn't a LOT of value in seriously pursuing a sport when you're a child! There is obviously a lot of value. But we should also think about the negative ramifications.

And what exactly the age limits will change for those kids who dont ascend to fame?

 

[plushyfan]

1. Risk of injury. Long competitive career means more injuries, and I would not want my child to retire in same state as Plushenko, for example.

Hmm..:think: I believe the end of his competitive career wasn't nice, really. Before that he had a very serious and unusual surgery but he can say it was worth doing the surgery. Plushenko skates on 100 shows / years. His last 3A was 2-3 months ago. Plus he adores the skating he said many times he can't live without skating.I believe many athletes, skaters desire for his successes and life despite to his surgeries(15) and many parents can think he is a succesful, lucky athlete. In 2017 his income was $5 millions. I don't see him as a invalid, lame sportman. :no:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Should children compete against adults in Olympic sports?

IMO, it's a difficult question. We need to protect children from being exploited by the adults in their lives for fame and fortune, overtraining, etc. Kids shouldn't have full-time jobs - being an elite athlete is 100% a full-time job. Is that okay? We would never let a kid in 2018 work in a factory for 8 hours a day, but it's okay to train for your sport 8 hours a day? Kids should get to do a lot of different sports and hobbies and not just one.

You're right, and I guess I'd say that the one reservation I have about anyone competing as seniors is the mental health of the athletes. The juniors can do the same jumps, but top juniors don't get anywhere near the same amount of attention or scrutiny that top seniors get. They can train as hard without the kind of pressure that leads to problems like eating disorders.

 

[andromache]

And what exactly the age limits will change for those kids who dont ascend to fame?

I'm not pro-age limit, I don't think. I think there are major problems with allowing children to compete against adults at the top of any sport and an age limit won't solve all of those problems (such as training too many hours when a kid should instead be pursuing many more activities, hobbies, etc.). Again - if we don't let kids have full-time jobs, why is being a full-time athlete acceptable?

And the very real negative effects of child stardom. Someone is too young to vote or drive or work at McDonalds for minimum wage, but you can train for elite sport 40+ hours a week and go to the Olympics? It's kind of crazy. But there's not a real way to solve it.

 

[concorde]

In my area, kids "train" 40+ plus hours a week for academic competitions. Think the Science Olympiad or the National Science Bee. Kids choose different paths and who is to say which is better.

As an fyi. Most top skaters are strong academically. Rachel Flatt is currently working on her Ph.D. I think she would be a great role model for young skaters.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In my area, kids "train" 40+ plus hours a week for academic competitions. Think the Science Olympiad or the National Science Bee. Kids choose different paths and who is to say which is better.

As an fyi. Most top skaters are strong academically. Rachel Flatt is currently working on her Ph.D. I think she would be a great role model for young skaters.

I would say I’ve noticed the kids in my area who “live” at the rink are very strong academically...at least most are and are at least on equal footing with their peers when it’s time to go on to college. Maybe their social skills are a little less developed but that isn’t always a bad thing. Especially when it’s replaced with discipline and focus on goals.

Obviously no generalization holds true and there are always exceptions but I’m comfortable in saying the kids that dedicate 40 hrs a week (full time job) into skating, academics, or other sports often do so with a fair opportunity for success. At least I’m my experience.

 

[andromache]

In my area, kids "train" 40+ plus hours a week for academic competitions. Think the Science Olympiad or the National Science Bee. Kids choose different paths and who is to say which is better.

As an fyi. Most top skaters are strong academically. Rachel Flatt is currently working on her Ph.D. I think she would be a great role model for young skaters.

I am aware that most skaters are strong academically. (I think there's a perfectionist personality that tends to thrive in both skating and academics.)

I guess I would say I am okay with kids around 16 years old having that level of focus and requiring that much training. But what about, like, 8 year olds? Or 10 year olds?

Also, kids in academic competitions are not competing against adults. They are competing against other kids in their age group.

 

[concorde]

I am aware that most skaters are strong academically. (I think there's a perfectionist personality that tends to thrive in both skating and academics.)

I guess I would say I am okay with kids around 16 years old having that level of focus and requiring that much training. But what about, like, 8 year olds? Or 10 year olds?

Also, kids in academic competitions are not competing against adults. They are competing against other kids in their age group.

I attended my 5th grade son's back to school night earlier this month. His math /science teacher was pushing to kids to do high school level coursework. When my daughter was in 6th grade, a classmate was taking Algebra 1 (historically that is a 9th grade class). My point - kids todays are being pushed harder and harder at younger and younger ages regardless of whether it is academics or sports.

When you push kids that hard that early, in the longer term you are forcing them to "compete" against adults at an earlier age. In academics, you have prodigies going to college when they are young teenager. Remember years ago the TV show Doogie Hauser, MD.

The situation is not unique to ice skating.

 

[moriel]

Hmm..:think: I believe the end of his competitive career wasn't nice, really. Before that he had a very serious and unusual surgery but he can say it was worth doing the surgery. Plushenko skates on 100 shows / years. His last 3A was 2-3 months ago. Plus he adores the skating he said many times he can't live without skating.I believe many athletes, skaters desire for his successes and life despite to his surgeries(15) and many parents can think he is a succesful, lucky athlete. In 2017 his income was $5 millions. I don't see him as a invalid, lame sportman. :no:

I dont see him lame, but i wonder about his health in 10-20 years.

 

[andromache]

I attended my 5th grade son's back to school night earlier this month. His math /science teacher was pushing to kids to do high school level coursework. When my daughter was in 6th grade, a classmate was taking Algebra 1 (historically that is a 9th grade class). My point - kids todays are being pushed harder and harder at younger and younger ages regardless of whether it is academics or sports.

When you push kids that hard that early, in the longer term you are forcing them to "compete" against adults at an earlier age. In academics, you have prodigies going to college when they are young teenager. Remember years ago the TV show Doogie Hauser, MD.

The situation is not unique to ice skating.

I was academic kid. I get it. I do. We should push kids hard.

All sports leagues, associations, clubs, etc. have age requirements, and the ISU is no different. But it would be very strange if, say, the most successful people in the a discipline of an Olympic sport are, for years on end, 15-16 year olds. (FWIW, this hasn't happened yet. There have been individuals, sure, but there's no long line of 15-16 year old world champs.)

Just like it'd be weird if all the best NBA or NFL stars were 15 years old. At that point, it's a sport for children. Maybe a sport dominated by children shouldn't be an Olympic sport? (Again, we're not at that point yet at all - just talking in hypotheticals.) Youth Olympics are one thing.

An occasional prodigy is one thing. But, like, if the Harvard medical school valedictorian was a 13 year old every single year, that would be insane.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I don't think it's fair to push kids to do things they're not passionate about. If it's their initiative and skating is what they want to do, then why not let them skate and do school if the parents can afford it? why force them to try things they're not interested in at the expense of their skating?