US Men: Did the judges have it right?

[karlowens2]

I hope this is a wake up call to Max. In the middle of his program he stops, gestures to the sky, turns around. The music is rising and he's kiind of not doing anything. It's dead space. While he is doing that others are performing difficult foot work, great spins, etc.. These are technical points also. And, unfortunately they added up to a second place for Max. As someone said his jumping is not at such a high level that he can short change the rest. The atristry is a whole other question.

About international judging. It's going through of phase of really pushing jumping. People have complained all season about jumpers being given high PCS so they can win. I don't think it is wrong for USFS to balance this with a reminder that figure skating is many different skills and abilities. USFS is stil an important voice in the sport. I suspect this debate about the place of jumping will go on for a while.

Does anyone know how Nathan is? Did they release him from the hospital?

 

[Sabrina]

I am happy for Adam, as I recently realized he is a very good skater but no big titles. So I have no grudge against this decision, though I think that Nathan should have won. I watched these three skaters, and my order is: Chen, Rippon, Aaron, at small differences. This is an eternal question in figure skating. In 2010 many considered Plushy should have won. At least Adam tried that 4Lz.
Recently in 2016 Canadian nationals, there is a debate about second place in men.

 

[gkelly]

The new code in gymnastics separates the difficulty panel from the execution panel. Gymnasts are given a D-score and an E-score. Mind you, the E-score only goes down, not up. There is no GOE in gymnastics, only deductions (although there are overall considerations for amplitude and dynamic movement). In the 10.0 system, which is still used in the lower levels in the U.S., often judges still do it all. However, regardless of the system, there is always a panel of judges and there needs to be start value agreement (difficulty or D-score) and a reasonable range for the E-score for things to be accepted or a referee steps in (or judges confer at small meets).

Thanks for the explanation.

So the D score is like the base mark that the tech panel determines and the E score is like the GOEs especially negative ones. Is there anything like any or all of the PCS for the performance as a whole?

Gymnastics judges use short hand to keep track of skills and deductions (or to tabulate a start value), and so we do make notes as we score the routine, which helps. I imagine skating judges can do something similar, though they have a much greater amount of time between elements to score them.

Yes, they can take notes. The judges aren't responsible for deciding the level of an element so they would be less likely to take notes about all the features the skater attempted or accomplished. There are plenty of GOE points for them to focus on instead.

And in between the elements they would be focusing on the various PCS criteria and possibly making notes about those.

The judges who are also technical specialists and/or technical controllers may be in the habit of ticking off features in their heads when watching spins and steps and relevant pair moves, so they many have a good estimate of the level without even trying. The judges who are only judges, not so much.

Gymnastics routines, especially uneven bars, can be skill-skill-skill with no time to look down. You get really good at writing without looking.

I bet

I find that when I watch skating it is not too difficult to see what level a skill is and what GOE I might assign it and to be aware of this as I go along. It's also not hard to note if something seems under-rotated or off a questionable edge. I have not taken the time to memorize the values assigned to positive and negative GOE for every skill in every discipline, only base value, so I don't always have a precise score in my head at the end, but this is more due to the fact that I haven't cared to try to memorize those numbers.

I haven't memorized them either.

It's not in the judges' job description to keep track of running score totals, or (unlike under 6.0) of which skater is/should be ahead of another overall.

If a judge were more interested in trying to manipulate overall results than in trying to judge fairly, that would be a useful skill to develop.

But for those who are trying to do the best job they can evaluating the GOEs and PCS, they have enough other things to think about. Fans often complain that judges don't have enough time to focus on PCS if they're also judging GOEs (although, as you point out, there is often time between the elements). Imagine if they also had to convert their scores into final numbers so they could keep track over whether they were marking the skater with the underrotated quad ahead of the one with the clean triple-triple, for example.

They change often anyways. Still, I have a rough idea at the end of watching something. If I, as a casual viewer watching at home, have a rough idea, I imagine that those who are dedicated to knowing the code have a pretty solid idea of how their scores add up.

Quick game for anyone who thinks it's easy.

Without consulting the Scale of Values, what would be the approximate final score (rounded to the nearest whole number) for a level 3 flying change-foot combination spin with +1 GOE?

How about a double axel-double axel sequence in the second half bonus period, with, let's make easy, 0 GOE?

In a ladies' freeskate, if you give 0.5 higher to skater B than to skater A on every component, what is the total final PCS advantage you're giving to skater B?

Often I try to turn off the judge mind and simply enjoy a performance, but that is hard to do. At least sometimes I can do so for skating. It's almost impossible for me to watch a gymnastics meet and not judge. Once you get in the habit of scoring things it becomes a bit of a reflex.

But judges aren't in the habit of thinking in terms of overall scores. They think about -3 to +3 GOEs, not about base marks or and not about the fact that the GOEs are prorated differently for different elements. They think about PCS on a 10.0 scale with 0.25 increments and not about the fact that those scores are multiplied by 2 in a senior men's freeskate or by 1.6 in a ladies' or pairs freeskate or 0.8 in ladies' or pairs short program.

If we, as fans of figure skating, feel we can get a pretty good handle on a performance as we watch, how much more will trained judges be able to do so? It seems like I frequently encounter the opinion on this board that judges have too big a task, but the people sharing this opinion have also analyzed the score without being trained. Why do we seem to think the judges are worse at their job than we are? I maintain that they know what their scores are doing. They know the calls and the values even if they are not the technical controller.

Again, keeping track of the scores is not their job and they're not trained in doing so. Trying to do so would distract them from doing their actual job.

ETA: Nor is it in the job description of the technical panel to keep track of the base values of the elements they're calling. That's the computer's job, and I think only the data entry operator is looking at a computer (not sure if it shows any numbers) rather than at the live skaters. The tech panel's job is to determine what elements the skater did, what features the skater achieves on the non-jump elements (memorizing all the rules about the features and how to apply them would take enough brain space), and whether the jumps were underrotated, downgraded, or taken off from the wrong edge, plus rules about how to call intentional or unintentional jump sequences, repeated jumps without combination, etc.

There would be no point in memorizing the Scale of Values as well.

 

[Sabrina]

I
Does anyone know how Nathan is? Did they release him from the hospital?

Sorry, but what happened with Chen? Why would he be in hospital?

 

[Matilda]

Sorry, but what happened with Chen? Why would he be in hospital?

He got hurt in the gala and had to stop his performance. He apparently aggravated a nagging hip injury and they took him to the hospital for a check up. Last I heard they expected full recovery. I hope he'll take it easy for a while so he'll be ok for the Worlds.

 

[Greta]

I was lucky enough to be there. One thing I found when watching Max's program live was that his skating was quite slow and there were many "stand still and strike a pose" sorts of moments in the LP. That never really came across to me on a TV. It was strange to me because Max looked very powerful during the warm up, but when he skated his program he seemed not just controlled but held very tightly in every movement.

 

[salchowx4]

No, they did not. International tech panel and judges would never have been so generous to Adam.

 

[mintx]

I was lucky enough to be there. One thing I found when watching Max's program live was that his skating was quite slow and there were many "stand still and strike a pose" sorts of moments in the LP. That never really came across to me on a TV. It was strange to me because Max looked very powerful during the warm up, but when he skated his program he seemed not just controlled but held very tightly in every movement.

I noticed some of the stop and stand in Max's program. I was really disappointed in it. After all the hype I wanted to be wowed and sadly I wasn't.

 

[Tavi...]

Odd. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say Max is slow. Usually it's the opposite. He has a reputation as one of the fastest, most powerful skaters around.

I did notice there were several long pauses in the FS.

 

[fairly4]

my take no but then they all skated decent.

My take is this is why I think you U.S. Men have a hard time doing quads even with mistakes no rewarded.

To me it looked like adam did a triple salchow and fell on it but was rewarded for a quad . ( I know rules states on paper, give skater benefit of doubt) I didn't watch practices at nationals so I don't know if he practice it.
Podium finish was good just not order we would have put them in.

 

[HanDomi]

it looked more like they handed title to Rippon because they robbed him year ago

 

[Violet Bliss]

it looked more like they handed title to Rippon because they robbed him year ago

Like they do with the Oscars? Let's hope it's not the Lifetime Achievement Award.

 

[karne]

To me it looked like adam did a triple salchow and fell on it but was rewarded for a quad .

wut? Adam fell on a 4Lz<< that was not correctly called a <<.

it looked more like they handed title to Rippon because they robbed him year ago

They didn't rob him a year ago. They got that one right and they got this one horribly wrong.

 

[GoddessMinerva]

Thanks for the explanation.

So the D score is like the base mark that the tech panel determines and the E score is like the GOEs especially negative ones. Is there anything like any or all of the PCS for the performance as a whole?



Just to jump in....I'm a gymnastics fan who has recently become a skating fan(so yes Skating does attract some new fans).

No there is no equivalent to PCS or performance. In theory this 'aspect' of gymnastics should show up in the E Score. I don't know that there's any evidence that it does. A particularly bad performance quality routine may make a judge less likely to be generous with the E score, but I would say this is pretty rare and probably doesn't happen to top teams. There's so much debate in gymnastics as to what even constitutes artistry - i.e. balletic! Smiley and bouncy! I get the feeling that even if in theory artistry matters, the judges wouldn't even know how to go about rewarding that as their job is to score the difficulty or the execution of those elements. The system is not supposed to allow subjectivity - which makes scoring performance a bit harder.

 

[Rissa]

Upon a rewatch, I'm changing my mind about Nathan. Perhaps he wasn't the master of expressivenes, but the crazy pace of his choreo and the fact that he kept up with it made up for a lot. He should have won, with Adam in second place. In fact, Nathan's and Nax's music wasn't dissimilar but how their choreography meshed with the music was like night and day in favor of Nathan. That kid is the future of US men's figure skating, hopefully nothing strange will happen to derail his develoment.

 

[Jammers]

I doubt we will have quadless Men's champions in the US much longer with Nathan and Vincent on the rise and if Josh Farris comes back along with Max. Nathan just changed the landscape for US Men. Even without high component scores Max and Adam had to be almost completely clean to beat this kid. Jason will need a quad next season and Adam at almost 27 i saw this as his one big chance to win the title with all the injuries. Next year he might be lucky to make top 4.

 

[MoonlightSkater]

But judges aren't in the habit of thinking in terms of overall scores. They think about -3 to +3 GOEs, not about base marks or and not about the fact that the GOEs are prorated differently for different elements. They think about PCS on a 10.0 scale with 0.25 increments and not about the fact that those scores are multiplied by 2 in a senior men's freeskate or by 1.6 in a ladies' or pairs freeskate or 0.8 in ladies' or pairs short program.

You posted a lot, and so I am going to pick up on one point. I would argue that judges, especially those who began during the 6.0 era, which honestly is probably still most of them, are in the habit of thinking about overall score. It may not be in their job description, but I am quite willing to bet they still are able to do it and that many of them do. Especially when they get curious about why certain scores seem not to match their impressions- that would make me pay more attention!

As for the argument that they have too much to think about and not enough time, I say rubbish. They can mark a skill quickly, checking off GOE points as they see them, and then pay attention to other qualities, especially since they can, as you clarify, take notes! Still enough time to be aware of levels, even, though they don't control how those are called. I imagine a program full of high level skills will give an impression that an athlete has better skating skills, so being aware of what was completed might be something they'd want to notice.

You asked about whether or not gymnastics has any sort of PCS. The short answer is "not really." The longer answer is that there are a few potential tenths worth of deductions available each for artistry (on floor and beam), dynamics, and amplitude. If you thought a gymnast presented a very poor quality routine overall with no real attempt at artistry and little evidence of physical conditioning relative to the skills thrown you would be able to take about a point off their score between these three deductions, but I have never, ever seen that done. More likely you'll see a tenth off here and a tenth off there, totaling maybe .2 to .5. Not generally enough to make a very big difference except, maybe, if you use them to differentiate between event finalists, who probably have less to take in these areas anyways.

 

[KweenAsada]

I'm not a genius when it comes to skating, but Nathan whipping out FOUR quads was nothing short of spectacular. Like it or not, quads are a big part of mens skating. He should have been in second, imo. Right after Max. Adam's presentation isn't so good that he should have won that competition. He should have gotten the bronze, imo.

 

[louisa05]

I'm not a genius when it comes to skating, but Nathan whipping out FOUR quads was nothing short of spectacular. Like it or not, quads are a big part of mens skating. He should have been in second, imo. Right after Max. Adam's presentation isn't so good that he should have won that competition. He should have gotten the bronze, imo.

I'm not picking on you personally as you are just repeating what a ton of posters have said about this event. But what strikes me as very odd is that this is actually 6.0 thinking. By the time the system was retired, it basically amounted to "how many difficult jumps did the skater land?" plus "how was the presentation?". In that system, the placements you suggest would have made sense. Flipping Max and Nathan in the placements you suggest would have made sense, perhaps even moreso. But it isn't 6.0 anymore. In IJS, the other elements are no longer filler and they count for points, too. And has been said so many times it is redundant now--Adam had better non-jumping elements. IJS is so specific with the use of levels that that is no longer entirely subjective, either. Additionally, in IJS it is no longer simply "how many difficult jumps did the skater land?", GOE requires them to be done well or potential points are lost. One clear example of where Adam excelled in that on Sunday was the 3A he got a GOE of 2.00 on where neither Max or Nathan achieved that high of a GOE on any element. That is, in fact, the jump Nathan missed and got the maximum negative GOE. If he had hit that jump and got the same GOE as Adam, he would have had 3 more total points and won silver.

 

[Skatefan15]

How did Adam even win the long, with a 4 quad Nathan and 2 quad Max? And how in the technical did Adam beat Max in that too? I think the U.S is sending a pretty interesting message if we keep crowning national champions with NO quad. Look at Japan World team, Yuzuru Hanyu has landed them 2 quads in the short and 3 in long, Shoma has 1 in the short (2nd half) and 2 in long. Then we have the main Canadian man - Patrick Chan, he is getting pretty consistent with quads now. Russian world team- not as consistent quads but at least tried and most of the time rotated. There are quads everywhere and yes quads are not the only factor in skating but at the this rate our newly no quaded "champion" would be lucky to finish in top 10. And also, am I the only one who saw that under-rotation from Adam from the lutz-toe combo? #not_hating_just_stating