What are "good" skating skills?

[Magill]

Are you taking about me?
I never said that he played something he did not agree with, I just said that if someone is asked to do a commission, and choose to do so, they would normally consult with the commissioner.
Do you really think Zimerman was like: 'okay, I'm going to play x cause I think skater y, who I probably didn't even know existed, can pull it of'?

I just said that he likely got parts that should be included and a possible tempo frame. And then he experimented and made different recordings...

Sorry, I was answering to some other post and I might have mixed them both up and my interpretation of them. I'm sorry if I kind of misquoted or misinterpreted you, no harm was meant. Just like you are now mixing up my posts and those of Dizzy Frenchie
As to the meritum, yes, Dizzy Frenchie has already described this story twice so I will not repeat it. But I agree. One of the greatest pianists out there being so impressed with the way a young skater skates to classical music (Yuzuru was like, what, 20 at the time, I think) that he's reaching out to him offering to play for him is an incredible story and not the way it typically happens. But as it was, it was. I do not think it was a typical "commission", though. Did they consult each other? To some extent, obviously they did.
Moving on!

 

[Friday]

I'm sure it wasn't. I have the CD, I know he released VHS for Japan in the 1980s but it's available on Youtube and it's really different. Furthermore, it does sound purpose-played for a rink (which Shinya Kiyozuka, who adapted and played St-Saëns' Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso for Yuzuru Hanyu, this indeed as a command from Yuzuru Hanyu, and the pianist was so intimidated, probably as much from succeeding to Krystian Zimerman than from playing for Yuzuru Hanyu; didn't manage, the notes are normal, not "thicker", but Krystian Zimerman is known to be a sort of magician for adjusting a piano, maybe it's not the place to develop). And, he would never allow anyone to cut a play of his! If the piece was to be cut, it has to be wholly thought by himself and played at once. He wouldn't allow a piece played for a type of recording and to be released in a type of CD/DVD and listened to in a living room with a good sound system, to be played in a skating rink! It's not the same at all, and his interpretation is not the same! I know it too well: he doesn't allow a release in CD of the four Mozart Sonatas he played four decades ago, I worn my tapes so much that they were torn and I'd like so much to have them back in a good quality. He says (about ancient interprets) that digitalising an interpretation made for analogical recording and play, is like undressing the Gioconda and discovering that she hasn't taken a bath. He's as perfectionist as Yuzuru Hanyu and I suppose that he knew the genius and the nerd at once.

@ Friday, he did contact Yuzuru Hanyu and propose him to play something for a skate, not the other way round. Yuzuru Hanyu and his would never have dared! How could they have? And I believe it was unprecedented from Krystian Zimerman, to play for any non-musician performer!
As to tempo rubato, in this wording and meaning it's chiefly Chopin, but contemporary composers had similar concept with other words:

Tempo rubato - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you have a source of that? I searched, but couldn't find anything

 

[4everchan]

Do you have a source of that? I searched, but couldn't find anything

Same here. I did search because 1) I adore Zimerman and I am surprised I have never heard about this... 2) I adore Zimerman and I know how respectful he is of Chopin's music and how a dedicated interpret he is... and that arrangement, missing the main theme of the Ballade is uncanny. I doubt he would have chosen this personally. It's fine for choreographers and skaters to do such things as music is just a vehicle to showcase a skater. But Zimerman endorsing that omission is puzzling me.

 

[gkelly]

I'm surprised that you consider upper body movements in steps sequences! Which are, indeed, per the rules a requirement on 1/3 of the step sequence, for all levels of step sequence, but I don't know what the sanction should be when a skater doesn't comply with this rules.

Upper body movement in the step sequence is not something that is required for all skaters and penalized when not present -- it is an opportunity to earn an an additional feature in the step sequence and it is rewarded when it is achieved.

If the skater doesn't have sufficient upper body movement in a step sequence, the technical panel won't award that feature and they won't earn level 4 for that step sequence. That's the only "penalty."

They might still have excellent skating skills shown throughout the step sequence--in which case they can earn the skating-skill related GOE bullet points from the judges for "deep edges, clean steps and turns, control of the whole body"; "effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution"; "good acceleration and deceleration" to earn high GOE on the step sequence.

And they can still show excellent skating skills throughout the program as a whole and earn high scores for the Skating Skills program component.

About turn quality there once were figures, but they were not recorded (I have never seen any),

Here are a bunch of videos showing school figures from various points of the 20th century:

1913 World Ladies & Pairs Figure Skating Championships & Mens Nordic Games

The Nordic Games were conceived by Viktor Balck, who also was president of the ISU. The World Figure Skating Championships were sometimes combined with the N...

www.youtube.com

Compulsory Figures - Through The Years

A look back at Compulsory Figures through the years going back as far as Arthur Cumming at the 1913 Nordic Games going right through to the 1979 World Champi...

www.youtube.com

Compulsory Figures - 1968 Olympics

Footage from the compulsory figures at the 1968 Olympics

www.youtube.com

1980 Olympics Mens Compulsory Figures - Part A

Jan Hoffman (East Germany) and Vladimir Kovalev (Russia) battle it out in the first two figures. David Santee (USA) takes a surprizing third!!

www.youtube.com

1980 Olympic Mens Compulsory Figures - Part B

Charlie Tickner and Robin Cousins finish up the third figure.

www.youtube.com

Trixi Schuba - Compulsory Figures Documentary 1971

FULL TRANSLATION BELOW IN COMMENTS:A very rare interview with Trixi Schuba before she won the 1971 Worlds in Lyon. They analyse her figures and what made her...

www.youtube.com

1984 Winter Olympics - Men's Figure Skating Compulsory Figures - Part 1

Scott Hamilton USA

www.youtube.com

Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 1 - 1988 Calgary, Figure Skating

Calgary, Alberta, CANADA - 1988 Winter Games, Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 1

www.youtube.com

Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 2 - 1988 Calgary, Figure Skating

Calgary, Alberta, CANADA - 1988 Winter Games, Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 2

www.youtube.com

1990 World Figure Skating Championships Footage of the last school figures

A goodbye forever to school figures for the ladies

www.youtube.com

There tends to be more video of loop figures because they're smaller so TV can show a whole figure in less time, the body positions are more interesting to look at, and they were generally the last figures performed in competitions so could be shown while summing up the results of that competition phase.

What was expected and rewarded in compulsory figures competition had different emphases from the expectations and rewards in freeskating. Turn quality was certainly high on the list.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Same here. I did search because 1) I adore Zimerman and I am surprised I have never heard about this... 2) I adore Zimerman and I know how respectful he is of Chopin's music and how a dedicated interpret he is... and that arrangement, missing the main theme of the Ballade is uncanny. I doubt he would have chosen this personally. It's fine for choreographers and skaters to do such things as music is just a vehicle to showcase a skater. But Zimerman endorsing that omission is puzzling me.

@Friday too!

It's Kotaro Fukuma who leaked it in 2015. I'm not surprised that it wasn't announced publicly because Krystian Zimerman is so modest, also because in spite of his endeavours a piano piece played on a not-so-good sound system not even adapted to each skating rink's sound, plus the reverberations of the ice and often the ceiling and its frame, plus (for those who don't watch it on-site) an uncontrolled recording by different TV channels of variable sound engineering competence... It's not a coincidence if he sticks to Deutsche Gramofon! And also, because he has his views on musical copyrights, and probably didn't want to interfere? I wouldn't be surprised if he did it for free. Yuzuru Hanyu wasn't rich then: newly-minted Olympic champion from a financially struggling family, he had donated his prize money for the reconstruction of Tohoku, and advertising contracts were probably not secured yet.
As to not including a theme, be it the main one, I believe it's simply because the duration of a Short Program wouldn't allow to develop it in a musically satisfactory way. The whole Ballade lasts 10 minutes, and cannot (should not!) be played as a pot-pourri of themes, and only part of the themes could be properly introduced, developed and concluded in a beautiful, self-coherent way.

Kotaro Fukuma, shares a story about the Chopin collaboration with Yuzuru.

The pianist for the Kobe FaOI, Kotaro Fukuma, shares a story about the Chopin collaboration with Yuzu. Kotaro had wonderful and special e...

yuzuruhanyubr.blogspot.com

There is also maybe this in Japanese, but DeepL seems to be into maintenance:

【羽生結弦】フィギュアスケート史に燦然と輝く栄光の軌跡｜2010～2021年の試合をプレイバック【フィギュアスケート男子】

シニアデビュー以降、その歴史に燦然と輝く黄金色の瞬間と、後世まで語り継がれるべきいくつもの感動の演技を写真とともに振り返る。オリンピック２連覇という偉業を達成しながら、進化を止めない絶対王者。人類史上初の４回転アクセル成功までのカウントダウンはもう始まっている。

nonno.hpplus.jp

 

[4everchan]

@Friday too!

It's Kotaro Fukuma who leaked it in 2015. I'm not surprised that it wasn't announced publicly because Krystian Zimerman is so modest, also because in spite of his endeavours a piano piece played on a not-so-good sound system not even adapted to each skating rink's sound, plus the reverberations of the ice and often the ceiling and its frame, plus (for those who don't watch it on-site) an uncontrolled recording by different TV channels of variable sound engineering competence... It's not a coincidence if he sticks to Deutsche Gramofon! And also, because he has his views on musical copyrights, and probably didn't want to interfere? I wouldn't be surprised if he did it for free. Yuzuru Hanyu wasn't rich then: newly-minted Olympic champion from a financially struggling family, he had donated his prize money for the reconstruction of Tohoku, and advertising contracts were probably not secured yet.
As to not including a theme, be it the main one, I believe it's simply because the duration of a Short Program wouldn't allow to develop it in a musically satisfactory way. The whole Ballade lasts 10 minutes, and cannot (should not!) be played as a pot-pourri of themes, and only part of the themes could be properly introduced, developed and concluded in a beautiful, self-coherent way.

Kotaro Fukuma, shares a story about the Chopin collaboration with Yuzuru.

The pianist for the Kobe FaOI, Kotaro Fukuma, shares a story about the Chopin collaboration with Yuzu. Kotaro had wonderful and special e...

yuzuruhanyubr.blogspot.com

There is also maybe this in Japanese, but DeepL seems to be into maintenance:

【羽生結弦】フィギュアスケート史に燦然と輝く栄光の軌跡｜2010～2021年の試合をプレイバック【フィギュアスケート男子】

シニアデビュー以降、その歴史に燦然と輝く黄金色の瞬間と、後世まで語り継がれるべきいくつもの感動の演技を写真とともに振り返る。オリンピック２連覇という偉業を達成しながら、進化を止めない絶対王者。人類史上初の４回転アクセル成功までのカウントダウンはもう始まっている。

nonno.hpplus.jp

But that doesn't say anything really about a collaboration between Zimerman and Yuzuru. It's a musical arrangement of a recording of Zimerman.

However, it seemed a huge challenge because the music he used was already edited at several spots and it was in different tempi from mine. (You can find it on youtube by searching for "Yuzuru Hanyu Ballade") So, in order to study his interpretation I spent about an hour watching his skating on youtube (it's actually from a recording of Zimmerman).

The music Yuzuru is using is an edit from Zimerman's recording, as it is customary in figure skating ; choreos and music editors get a piece to fit the SP requirements. I am glad we are through with this. Unless you find something more convincing, my hypothesis seems most likely still.

For the rest, you can feel however you want about the montage made of the Ballade... but I won't change my mind. Having played this piece so often, without the main lyrical theme, it's nothing. The piece starts that way and progresses to the main theme, at first in a very delicate manner and then into a glorious and powerful variation. There is even a third iteration of the theme with arpeggios in the left hand before getting to the impressive coda. The progression is so well crafted from the waltz section to the main theme and to the coda...

The way I hear the music cuts in this program is like this


Once upon a time they lived happily ever after and had many children. The end. No plot.

Again, as a figure skating piece, it's okay. But poor Chopin... If i played that version to any of my students who are all dreaming to play the Ballade, they would look at me and say " that's cheating... i want the theme... lame! I want a refund !!!!"

Let's leave this topic for now. If ever you find a real source from Zimerman explaining his collaboration with Yuzuru, simply send it to me by PM or post a different thread. I feel it's impossible not to answer here, but I really don't want this to overtake the thread's very interesting topic.

 

[4everchan]

Upper body movement in the step sequence is not something that is required for all skaters and penalized when not present -- it is an opportunity to earn an an additional feature in the step sequence and it is rewarded when it is achieved.

If the skater doesn't have sufficient upper body movement in a step sequence, the technical panel won't award that feature and they won't earn level 4 for that step sequence. That's the only "penalty."

They might still have excellent skating skills shown throughout the step sequence--in which case they can earn the skating-skill related GOE bullet points from the judges for "deep edges, clean steps and turns, control of the whole body"; "effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution"; "good acceleration and deceleration" to earn high GOE on the step sequence.

And they can still show excellent skating skills throughout the program as a whole and earn high scores for the Skating Skills program component.


Here are a bunch of videos showing school figures from various points of the 20th century:

1913 World Ladies & Pairs Figure Skating Championships & Mens Nordic Games

The Nordic Games were conceived by Viktor Balck, who also was president of the ISU. The World Figure Skating Championships were sometimes combined with the N...

www.youtube.com

Compulsory Figures - Through The Years

A look back at Compulsory Figures through the years going back as far as Arthur Cumming at the 1913 Nordic Games going right through to the 1979 World Champi...

www.youtube.com

Compulsory Figures - 1968 Olympics

Footage from the compulsory figures at the 1968 Olympics

www.youtube.com

1980 Olympics Mens Compulsory Figures - Part A

Jan Hoffman (East Germany) and Vladimir Kovalev (Russia) battle it out in the first two figures. David Santee (USA) takes a surprizing third!!

www.youtube.com

1980 Olympic Mens Compulsory Figures - Part B

Charlie Tickner and Robin Cousins finish up the third figure.

www.youtube.com

Trixi Schuba - Compulsory Figures Documentary 1971

FULL TRANSLATION BELOW IN COMMENTS:A very rare interview with Trixi Schuba before she won the 1971 Worlds in Lyon. They analyse her figures and what made her...

www.youtube.com

1984 Winter Olympics - Men's Figure Skating Compulsory Figures - Part 1

Scott Hamilton USA

www.youtube.com

Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 1 - 1988 Calgary, Figure Skating

Calgary, Alberta, CANADA - 1988 Winter Games, Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 1

www.youtube.com

Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 2 - 1988 Calgary, Figure Skating

Calgary, Alberta, CANADA - 1988 Winter Games, Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 2

www.youtube.com

1990 World Figure Skating Championships Footage of the last school figures

A goodbye forever to school figures for the ladies

www.youtube.com

There tends to be more video of loop figures because they're smaller so TV can show a whole figure in less time, the body positions are more interesting to look at, and they were generally the last figures performed in competitions so could be shown while summing up the results of that competition phase.

What was expected and rewarded in compulsory figures competition had different emphases from the expectations and rewards in freeskating. Turn quality was certain high on the list.

Thank you ! So nice to see figures again... though it made me feel ancient

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Upper body movement in the step sequence is not something that is required for all skaters and penalized when not present -- it is an opportunity to earn an an additional feature in the step sequence and it is rewarded when it is achieved.

If the skater doesn't have sufficient upper body movement in a step sequence, the technical panel won't award that feature and they won't earn level 4 for that step sequence. That's the only "penalty."

They might still have excellent skating skills shown throughout the step sequence--in which case they can earn the skating-skill related GOE bullet points from the judges for "deep edges, clean steps and turns, control of the whole body"; "effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution"; "good acceleration and deceleration" to earn high GOE on the step sequence.

And they can still show excellent skating skills throughout the program as a whole and earn high scores for the Skating Skills program component.


Here are a bunch of videos showing school figures from various points of the 20th century:

1913 World Ladies & Pairs Figure Skating Championships & Mens Nordic Games

The Nordic Games were conceived by Viktor Balck, who also was president of the ISU. The World Figure Skating Championships were sometimes combined with the N...

www.youtube.com

Compulsory Figures - Through The Years

A look back at Compulsory Figures through the years going back as far as Arthur Cumming at the 1913 Nordic Games going right through to the 1979 World Champi...

www.youtube.com

Compulsory Figures - 1968 Olympics

Footage from the compulsory figures at the 1968 Olympics

www.youtube.com

1980 Olympics Mens Compulsory Figures - Part A

Jan Hoffman (East Germany) and Vladimir Kovalev (Russia) battle it out in the first two figures. David Santee (USA) takes a surprizing third!!

www.youtube.com

1980 Olympic Mens Compulsory Figures - Part B

Charlie Tickner and Robin Cousins finish up the third figure.

www.youtube.com

Trixi Schuba - Compulsory Figures Documentary 1971

FULL TRANSLATION BELOW IN COMMENTS:A very rare interview with Trixi Schuba before she won the 1971 Worlds in Lyon. They analyse her figures and what made her...

www.youtube.com

1984 Winter Olympics - Men's Figure Skating Compulsory Figures - Part 1

Scott Hamilton USA

www.youtube.com

Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 1 - 1988 Calgary, Figure Skating

Calgary, Alberta, CANADA - 1988 Winter Games, Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 1

www.youtube.com

Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 2 - 1988 Calgary, Figure Skating

Calgary, Alberta, CANADA - 1988 Winter Games, Men's Compulsory Figures, Part 2

www.youtube.com

1990 World Figure Skating Championships Footage of the last school figures

A goodbye forever to school figures for the ladies

www.youtube.com

There tends to be more video of loop figures because they're smaller so TV can show a whole figure in less time, the body positions are more interesting to look at, and they were generally the last figures performed in competitions so could be shown while summing up the results of that competition phase.

What was expected and rewarded in compulsory figures competition had different emphases from the expectations and rewards in freeskating. Turn quality was certain high on the list.

Thank you very much! As I can watch Youtube videos only when embedded, I take the liberty of embedding the two Calgary ones, to see how the two Brians fared in their mature age:



As to the moves affecting balance in 1/3 of the Step Sequence, for the first time ISU has deleted their previous rules, but I read the 2022-2023 Technical Panel Handbook and from my memory, it looks similar to what was in force last quad:
"Use of body movements means the visible use for a combined total of at least 1/3of the pattern of the step sequence any movements of the arms, and/or head and/ortorso and/or hips and/or legs that have an effect on the balance of the main bodycore."
and:
"Level features
1. Minimum variety (Level 1), simple variety (Level 2), variety (Level 3), complexity (Level 4) ofdifficult turns and steps throughout (compulsory)
2. Rotations in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of thepattern in total for each rotational direction
3. Use of body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern
4. Two combinations of 3 difficult turns on different feet executed with continuous flow within thesequence. Only one difficult turn may be repeated in the two combinations. Only the first combination attempted on each foot can be counted."
This feature is indeed compulsory for all levels.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

But that doesn't say anything really about a collaboration between Zimerman and Yuzuru. It's a musical arrangement of a recording of Zimerman.



The music Yuzuru is using is an edit from Zimerman's recording, as it is customary in figure skating ; choreos and music editors get a piece to fit the SP requirements. I am glad we are through with this. Unless you find something more convincing, my hypothesis seems most likely still.

For the rest, you can feel however you want about the montage made of the Ballade... but I won't change my mind. Having played this piece so often, without the main lyrical theme, it's nothing. The piece starts that way and progresses to the main theme, at first in a very delicate manner and then into a glorious and powerful variation. There is even a third iteration of the theme with arpeggios in the left hand before getting to the impressive coda. The progression is so well crafted from the waltz section to the main theme and to the coda...

The way I hear the music cuts in this program is like this


Once upon a time they lived happily ever after and had many children. The end. No plot.

Again, as a figure skating piece, it's okay. But poor Chopin... If i played that version to any of my students who are all dreaming to play the Ballade, they would look at me and say " that's cheating... i want the theme... lame! I want a refund !!!!"

Let's leave this topic for now. If ever you find a real source from Zimerman explaining his collaboration with Yuzuru, simply send it to me by PM or post a different thread. I feel it's impossible not to answer here, but I really don't want this to overtake the thread's very interesting topic.

How must I tell you that is is NOT from any published recording of Krystian Zimerman? It is from a recording specially made for Yuzuru Hanyu, having prepared one of his pianos specially to get this sound, which is unlike each and every of his other recordings of any composer, and clearly played at once as you can hear it in the videos of the program, with accentuations fit for the purpose too? It hears! I would say, it screams! And Krystian Zimerman would NEVER have allowed anyone to edit one of his available recordings to play it for a figure skating program, be it Yuzuru Hanyu!

 

[4everchan]

How must I tell you that is is NOT from any published recording of Krystian Zimerman? It is from a recording specially made for Yuzuru Hanyu, having prepared one of his pianos specially to get this sound, which is unlike each and every of his other recordings of any composer, and clearly played at once as you can hear it in the videos of the program, with accentuations fit for the purpose too? It hears! I would say, it screams! And Krystian Zimerman would NEVER have allowed anyone to edit one of his available recordings to play it for a figure skating program, be it Yuzuru Hanyu!

Well sorry but i can hear the musical edits in the yuzuru version, I mean, there are even cuts in the middle of musical phrases ... so we will have to live with our own respective beliefs and end this here !

 

[eclipse]

How must I tell you that is is NOT from any published recording of Krystian Zimerman? It is from a recording specially made for Yuzuru Hanyu, having prepared one of his pianos specially to get this sound, which is unlike each and every of his other recordings of any composer, and clearly played at once as you can hear it in the videos of the program, with accentuations fit for the purpose too? It hears! I would say, it screams! And Krystian Zimerman would NEVER have allowed anyone to edit one of his available recordings to play it for a figure skating program, be it Yuzuru Hanyu!

Well sorry but i can hear the musical edits in the yuzuru version... so we will have to live with our own respective beliefs and end this here !

I got bored and overlayed these two video's audio at points I recognised the cuts and they sound identical, as in barring skate sounds they have the exact same peaks so this is probably the performance Yuzuru used and cut from.

Chopin - Ballade No.1 in G minor, Op.23 (Krystian Zimerman)

www.youtube.com

Yuzuru Hanyu performs to Chopin's Ballade No 1 at PyeongChang 2018 | Music Monday

ð² Want to watch live sport and original documentaries for free? Check out our website: https://oly.ch/WatchLiveSport Your wish is our command: Enjoy Yuzur...

www.youtube.com

There would be no reason to play it specifically for an ice rink as this may shock you but every ice rink is different and therefore they all sound different.

 

[gkelly]

As to the moves affecting balance in 1/3 of the Step Sequence, for the first time ISU has deleted their previous rules, but I read the 2022-2023 Technical Panel Handbook and from my memory, it looks similar to what was in force last quad:
"Use of body movements means the visible use for a combined total of at least 1/3of the pattern of the step sequence any movements of the arms, and/or head and/or torso and/or hips and/or legs that have an effect on the balance of the main body core."
and:
"Level features
1. Minimum variety (Level 1), simple variety (Level 2), variety (Level 3), complexity (Level 4) of difficult turns and steps throughout (compulsory)
2. Rotations in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction
3. Use of body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern
4. Two combinations of 3 difficult turns on different feet executed with continuous flow within the sequence. Only one difficult turn may be repeated in the two combinations. Only the first combination attempted on each foot can be counted."
This feature is indeed compulsory for all levels.

Yes, that's true. The requirements for season 2023/24 are the same, as listed in ISU Communication 2558, on the ISU Communications page that I linked to in post #3 of this thread.

In case it's not clear the way the ISU has worded it, what this means is:

To earn level 1, you need to achieve one of the 4 numbered features; to earn level 2 you need two of the features, three for level 3, and four for level 4. Unlike spins and pair moves, there are only 4 features available for step sequences, so in order to earn level 4 you would need to
achieve all 4 of the above.

As you'll note, feature #1, the different levels of variety, is compulsory. So if you don't have variety, you won't earn a level.
It's OK to have only feature #1, but if you have all the other features and no variety, you will earn level B (base).

If you do none of these four features, you earn level B (base). If you achieve only the variety feature #1, you'll get level 1. If you achieve feature #1 and one other, you can get level 2; if you achieve the variety feature and also two other features you can get level 3, and if you achieve all four features, you can get level 4.

In addition, how much variety you achieve for feature #1 also determines what level you're eligible for. Elsewhere (e.g., in the Technical Panel Handbook; https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/.../24781-tphb-single-skating-2020-21-final/file), there are definitions of what constitutes "minimum variety" or "simple variety" or "variety" or "complexity" of difficult turns and steps. I don't know why those definitions are not included in the most recent list Communications that include the level features.

Minimum Variety
Must include at least 5 difficult turns and steps, none of the types can be counted more than twice.
Simple Variety
Must include at least 7 difficult turns and steps, none of the types can be counted more than twice.
Variety
Must include at least 9 difficult turns and steps, none of the types can be counted more than twice.
Complexity
Must include at least 11 difficult turns and steps. None of the types of turns and steps can be counted more than twice. 5 types of turns and steps must be executed in both directions (the direction means body rotating to the left or to the right during the turn).

Oh, and the Definition of "Difficult Turns and Steps" is "twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers, choctaws."

All this is discussion about how technical panels determine step sequence levels under the current IJS step sequence rules. It has nothing directly to do with how judges evaluate the Skating Skills component, or the GOEs for the step sequence, or how a knowledgeable observer (e.g., other skaters, coaches, etc., including some fans who have spent years attending live competitions and practices and studying rules) would evaluate "That skater has great skating skills."

Of course, the better skills a skater has, the easier it is for them to execute the required skills to earn all the features. But it is definitely possible for a skater with low-average overall skill level (Skating Skills component scores in the 4s) to achieve a level 4 step sequence, or for a top skater who deserves Skating Skills scores in the 8s and 9s to miss a level in a sequence because of one missed turn, or not planning the step sequence exactly according to the rules then in effect. A step sequence designed to earn level 4 in 2010 would not earn level 4 under today's rules, and vice versa.

Would it help to have separate threads on "What makes good/great skating skills?" and "How are step sequences scored?"

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Yes, that's true. The requirements for season 2023/24 are the same, as listed in ISU Communication 2558, on the ISU Communications page that I linked to in post #3 of this thread.

In case it's not clear the way the ISU has worded it, what this means is:

To earn level 1, you need to achieve one of the 4 numbered features; to earn level 2 you need two of the features, three for level 3, and four for level 4. Unlike spins and pair moves, there are only 4 features available for step sequences, so in order to earn level 4 you would need to
achieve all 4 of the above.

As you'll note, feature #1, the different levels of variety, is compulsory. So if you don't have variety, you won't earn a level.
It's OK to have only feature #1, but if you have all the other features and no variety, you will earn level B (base).

If you do none of these four features, you earn level B (base). If you achieve only the variety feature #1, you'll get level 1. If you achieve feature #1 and one other, you can get level 2; if you achieve the variety feature and also two other features you can get level 3, and if you achieve all four features, you can get level 4.

In addition, how much variety you achieve for feature #1 also determines what level you're eligible for. Elsewhere (e.g., in the Technical Panel Handbook; https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/.../24781-tphb-single-skating-2020-21-final/file), there are definitions of what constitutes "minimum variety" or "simple variety" or "variety" or "complexity" of difficult turns and steps. I don't know why those definitions are not included in the most recent list Communications that include the level features.



All this is discussion about how technical panels determine step sequence levels under the current IJS step sequence rules. It has nothing directly to do with how judges evaluate the Skating Skills component, or the GOEs for the step sequence, or how a knowledgeable observer (e.g., other skaters, coaches, etc., including some fans who have spent years attending live competitions and practices and studying rules) would evaluate "That skater has great skating skills."

Of course, the better skills a skater has, the easier it is for them to execute the required skills to earn all the features. But it is definitely possible for a skater with low-average overall skill level (Skating Skills component scores in the 4s) to achieve a level 4 step sequence, or for a top skater who deserves Skating Skills scores in the 8s and 9s to miss a level in a sequence because of one missed turn, or not planning the step sequence exactly according to the rules then in effect. A step sequence designed to earn level 4 in 2010 would not earn level 4 under today's rules, and vice versa.

Would it help to have separate threads on "What makes good/great skating skills?" and "How are step sequences scored?"

Thank you, now I understand their wording! So, the most frequent "feature" leading to a Level 3 in top level skaters, is missing one of the steps required for a Level 4, BUT Level 3 can also result from a lack of one of the three other "features", body moves being one of these.

Now I don't know if a skater with Skating Skills in the 4s could achieve a Level 4 Step Sequence, because I suppose that all the body turns + moves would be an obstacle to show off the best of his skills, but I guess that at least, one with Skating Skills in the 6s could get it, while another in the 9s could get an occasional Level 3, particularly if the Step Sequence is very difficult.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Thank you, now I understand their wording! So, the most frequent "feature" leading to a Level 3 in top level skaters, is missing one of the steps required for a Level 4, BUT Level 3 can also result from a lack of one of the three other "features", body moves being one of these.

Now I don't know if a skater with Skating Skills in the 4s could achieve a Level 4 Step Sequence, because I suppose that all the body turns + moves would be an obstacle to show off the best of his skills, but I guess that at least, one with Skating Skills in the 6s could get it, while another in the 9s could get an occasional Level 3, particularly if the Step Sequence is very difficult.

It's not uncommon to see lvl 3 stsq at lower levels with 4s & 5s in PCS. And thats just missing body movement to get lvl 4. Step sequences is about ticking boxes, and yes it can indicate ability to do clean turns, but not skating skills as a whole. (Although skating skills and stsq levels do tend to correlate and are complimentary to each other)

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I got bored and overlayed these two video's audio at points I recognised the cuts and they sound identical, as in barring skate sounds they have the exact same peaks so this is probably the performance Yuzuru used and cut from.

Chopin - Ballade No.1 in G minor, Op.23 (Krystian Zimerman)

www.youtube.com

Yuzuru Hanyu performs to Chopin's Ballade No 1 at PyeongChang 2018 | Music Monday

ð² Want to watch live sport and original documentaries for free? Check out our website: https://oly.ch/WatchLiveSport Your wish is our command: Enjoy Yuzur...

www.youtube.com

There would be no reason to play it specifically for an ice rink as this may shock you but every ice rink is different and therefore they all sound different.

If you can't hear the difference, then I can do nothing. Why do you insist so much on spreading false information on a pianist, in a thread related to him only in that only one skater had the skating skills to pull it off?
The first video is from a 1986 or 1987 VHS released in Japan only.
You should hear it yourself, that if the three first measures have a similar interpretation in both, then you'll find nothing near the theme starting then, in the musical video. Neither at 0:41, nor at 4:21? nor at 7:08, when this theme is played. Nor, of course, in the last measures.
Nevertheless I encourage everybody to listen to his interpretation of the whole Ballade, although Youtube certainly can't render all what Krystian Zimerman put in "for VHS".
The best would be to buy a CD of course.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

For the posters who aren't so familiar with figures, here is a recent clip. The society that organises this competition started a few years back and is not affiliated with the ISU.
These are not the compulsory figures that were part of competition pre-1990, rather they're creative figures which these skaters have designed themselves. They were quite a popular activity early last century before freestyle took off, and are seeing a bit of a revival in some circles.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Well sorry but i can hear the musical edits in the yuzuru version... so we will have to live with our own respective beliefs and end this here !

I got bored and overlayed these two video's audio at points I recognised the cuts and they sound identical, as in barring skate sounds they have the exact same peaks so this is probably the performance Yuzuru used and cut from.

Chopin - Ballade No.1 in G minor, Op.23 (Krystian Zimerman)

www.youtube.com

Yuzuru Hanyu performs to Chopin's Ballade No 1 at PyeongChang 2018 | Music Monday

ð² Want to watch live sport and original documentaries for free? Check out our website: https://oly.ch/WatchLiveSport Your wish is our command: Enjoy Yuzur...

www.youtube.com

There would be no reason to play it specifically for an ice rink as this may shock you but every ice rink is different and therefore they all sound different.

If you can't hear the difference, then I can do nothing. Why do you insist so much on spreading false information on a pianist, in a thread related to him only in that only one skater had the skating skills to pull it off?
The first video is from a 1986 or 1987 VHS released in Japan only.
You should hear it yourself, that if the three first measures have a similar interpretation in both, then you'll find nothing near the theme starting then, in the musical video. Neither at 0:41, nor at 4:21? nor at 7:08, when this theme is played. Nor, of course, in the last measures.
Nevertheless I encourage everybody to listen to his interpretation of the whole Ballade, although Youtube certainly can't render all what Krystian Zimerman put in "for VHS".
The best would be to buy a CD of course.

Not here to argue or go off-topic more but I have to break some news based on what I know of choreography and the program choosing and building process all too well working within the sport. Combined with the interview with Hanyu going into the season he was going to skate Ballade for his SP. It's a recording that Buttle listened to and chose bits and pieces to cut and blend together to make a whole for the skater. That is what(how it) is done 99.9% of the time in this sport and no this was not the .1% exception no matter how much anyone wants to convince themselves that it is.

The interview excerpts with Buttle and Hanyu are below: (sources: https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp was translated here).


Hanyu who had said that he wants to “devote all his time into figure skating” “Ballade No. 1” as his music for his short program this season.

“When I was still in the Juniors category, I used piano music for my free skate for two years. I really liked the feeling from back then, so I want to recreate that feeling in a competition this season. There isn’t necessarily a story behind classical music, so it’s definitely a lot harder to interpret. At the same time, you can include your own interpretation of the music to give the performance your own personal flair. I think it was because of this that I chose to use classical music this season.” -Hanyu

His choreographer this time is the 2008 World Champion Jeffrey Buttle of Canada. Hanyu said that his only request was to “use piano music”. With this in mind, the finished product became this season’s short program.

Compared to last season’s short program, “Parisienne Walkways”, Ballade No. 1 has a very tranquil and peaceful beginning. This time around, Hanyu’s first jump is the triple axel, and has strategically placed his quadruple toe-loop into the second half to claim the 10% bonus. After his quad is the combination jump, which features a triple lutz and triple toe-loop. The difficulty of the planned content in this short program is exceptionally hard. -Buttle


Regarding the planned content, Hanyu said:

“In the end, I just want to be able to improve. My short program from last season has been finished, so I will need to continue on improving. I want to be able to experiment with what I am able to do. I want to be able to add in a quadruple salchow in as well, but the risks of that are too high as of right now. It’s because of this that I had placed the quadruple toe-loop, one of the jumps with the highest success rate, into the second half instead.” -Hanyu
----------

Note when reading that Hanyu hadn't even chosen the piece at all. He just told Buttle that he wanted "piano music."

 

[WednesdayMarch]

I wonder how long it took before the OP decided to never ask a question here again...?

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Not here to argue or go off-topic more but I have to break some news based on what I know of choreography and the program choosing and building process all too well working within the sport. Combined with the interview with Hanyu going into the season he was going to skate Ballade for his SP. It's a recording that Buttle listened to and chose bits and pieces to cut and blend together to make a whole for the skater. That is what(how it) is done 99.9% of the time in this sport and no this was not the .1% exception no matter how much anyone wants to convince themselves that it is.

The interview excerpts with Buttle and Hanyu are below: (sources: https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp was translated here).


Hanyu who had said that he wants to “devote all his time into figure skating” “Ballade No. 1” as his music for his short program this season.

“When I was still in the Juniors category, I used piano music for my free skate for two years. I really liked the feeling from back then, so I want to recreate that feeling in a competition this season. There isn’t necessarily a story behind classical music, so it’s definitely a lot harder to interpret. At the same time, you can include your own interpretation of the music to give the performance your own personal flair. I think it was because of this that I chose to use classical music this season.” -Hanyu

His choreographer this time is the 2008 World Champion Jeffrey Buttle of Canada. Hanyu said that his only request was to “use piano music”. With this in mind, the finished product became this season’s short program.

Compared to last season’s short program, “Parisienne Walkways”, Ballade No. 1 has a very tranquil and peaceful beginning. This time around, Hanyu’s first jump is the triple axel, and has strategically placed his quadruple toe-loop into the second half to claim the 10% bonus. After his quad is the combination jump, which features a triple lutz and triple toe-loop. The difficulty of the planned content in this short program is exceptionally hard. -Buttle


Regarding the planned content, Hanyu said:

“In the end, I just want to be able to improve. My short program from last season has been finished, so I will need to continue on improving. I want to be able to experiment with what I am able to do. I want to be able to add in a quadruple salchow in as well, but the risks of that are too high as of right now. It’s because of this that I had placed the quadruple toe-loop, one of the jumps with the highest success rate, into the second half instead.” -Hanyu
----------

Note when reading that Hanyu hadn't even chosen the piece at all. He just told Buttle that he wanted "piano music."

I can nothing for you if you can't differentiate two recordings even with different rhythms, and if you absolutely want to extrapolate on an interview to follow your view while refusing to consider all other elements (and there are many others really OT; maybe GIFT had an illusion of the Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra as one of the TWO orchestras besides the rink, just to speak of classical music).
It can give clues too, of the level, either of wilful delusion, or of sensory deficiency (unless there's an explanation I don't imagine), that can lead people to assert so many falsities.
Eclipse has given material proof against this fantastic (for anyone really knowing this pianist, I don't deny by this that 4EverChan may like to hear him but of course this doesn't imply that he's read his interviews etc, it's a different matter; there are many musicians I like and whose life and opinions I mostly ignore) theory of yours. If you can't, or if you refuse to check, well, you'll stay in your beliefs, and go on deceiving yourself and trying to deceive others.

 

[Arriba627]

I wonder how long it took before the OP decided to never ask a question here again...?

Exactly. Kinda reminds me of the bad ole days where every thread became a Hanyu thread.