What are you looking forward to most this season?

[Bluebonnet]

You just keep ranting that Japan is corrupted because Chan didn't win WTT.

Wrong. Chan deservedly lost in that WTT. I have no wish to say or even think otherwise.

 

[janetfan]

I don't think it would have been possible for any skater to win with three falls under the 6.0 system.

Actually, Plushenko was scored exactly right for his performance. A fall was a mandatory 4 point deduction, and Plushenko's technical scores ranged from 5.3 to 5.5. Without the fall it would have been 5.7 to 5.9.



Plushenko was reigning world champion in a sport where reputation counts for a lot. (So is Chan. ) Plus, Plushenko skated fast and with his usual swashbuckling style despite the mistake. It is to the credit of the Salt Lake City judges that they scored Plushenko correctly and did not try to hold him up by ignoring the technical error.

Just curious if I have this right.....

A fall in '02 was a .4 deduction and a two footed landing was a .2 deduction?

How is that the same as the new CoP rules where falls and two footed landings are both -3 GOE?

What bothers me more is that not all two footed landings are the same. Ashley at times has a habit of barely brushing the ice with her other skate.
Is that the same as a two footed landing that plunks down, and causes disruption of the flow out?

If I explained that right it is hardly the same at all. It seems unbelievable that a micro managed system like the IJS would not be able to assign -GOE based on the level of disruption of various 2 footed landings.

That would atleast feel consistent with the values ofthe CoP.

This would also naturally set up more disputes..."was that really a -2 GOE? Her foot barely touched the ice and did not disrupt the flow."

Falls feel different to me..... your down, you disrupted not just the flow of the jump but of the choreo and feeling of the program.

Maybe I heard Button too many times saying something like "Sasha was casting a spell over us but it was broken by that fall."

As usual I agree with Button.

 

[let`s talk]

(with the finger thing, of course).

What issues do you still have with Dai's finger? ISU website is the last straw? Carry on.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I think for the first guy, he gets -3 GOEs for lack of required preceding steps. But he gets full credit for his perfect quad jump as well as +3 GOEs for his quad. For the other guy, he gets -3 GOEs for lack of preceding steps. Also he gets UR call, and -3 GOEs for two footed and then fall. No positive GOEs for his quad. He also gets a mandatory -1 deduction for the fall. Sounds like there are big difference between them.

No, you are wrong. The -3 GOE for the first guy is mandatory for the lack of steps, while all the rest is up to judges. As for the second guy, you are saying he will get -6 GOE? Lame trolling here. Even Chan ubers know that -6 GOE for one jump never happened.

Wrong. Chan deservedly lost in that WTT. I have no wish to say or even think otherwise.

Yet it doesn't stop you from saying that WTT is just some commercial event where Japanese bought judges, not an ISU stuff at all and therefore all wins/losts means nothing.

 

[let`s talk]

It seems audience is not required in ice skating competitions anymore, actually ISU is all about elitist philosophical speculations

Maybe ISU feels the crowds are ruining skating by expressing honest feelings about the judging system and scores.

I am afraid ISU doesn't care not just about audience and public opinion. They don't care about skaters' well-being either. Plu, Yuna, Mao, Dai have fancy advertising contracts because they are popular sports elite in their countries, where fs is still popular. By reduciing fs popularity ISU automatically reduce skaters' chances to make good living.

 

[Buttercup]

I am looking forward to Hurtado/Diaz improving now that their training situation is settled and they're with good coaches, and qualifying for Sochi to become the first dance team to represent Spain at the Olympics.

I am also looking forward to ubers of all types saving the uberish posts for the relevant threads. Alas, I have no great faith in this happening.

 

[Bluebonnet]

No, you are wrong. The -3 GOE for the first guy is mandatory for the lack of steps, while all the rest is up to judges. As for the second guy, you are saying he will get -6 GOE? Lame trolling here. Even Chan ubers know that -6 GOE for one jump never happened.

Getting desperate?! Where is your debate ability based on evidences and without name calling?:disapp: Right, I might have expected too much.

If you say the first guy gets -3 GOE and after that he could get positive GOEs for his jump, then the second guy could get separate GOEs too. Though I don't know how the judges would mark if there were a real situation exactly like this. I imagine there had never been a lack of required steps preceding to a jump in SP (I mean in Seniors) because the skaters know about this rule and they could avoid its happening.

 

[janetfan]

The topic header is : What are you looking forward to most this season?

It is not "what do you hope for this season from your favorite skaters"

Some members are very interested in rule changes and the general effect of the CoP on skating this season.

I have too much affection for too many skaters to list them all but for instance wonder more about how the "Shibs" will be scored this season as opposed to how they will actually skate. :think:

I do have quite a bit of curiosity about how the ever changing scoring system will impact skating this season.

In all honesty if feels to me that alot of fans are more concerned about how the scoring will effect their favoites and their favorite's rivals than they are about their new programs/coaching changes/music & costumes...etc.

The scoring system is the star of skating heading into this season. Others may feel differently but that is howI see it.

 

[Smiley]

I just want to give my two cents.... Patrick Chan is the greatest skater in the World, at this moment. No one can deliver such difficult programs. Maybe everyone should try this... Count how many cross cuts Patrick does in one program. And then count how many cross cuts his competitors do. That will show you how much more difficult Patrick's programs are. He does transitions and steps and turns his whole program. He enters almost each jump from difficult steps and he exits almost each jump with difficult steps. When Patrick falls, he has does have alot of other things saving him. His footwork sequence gets more points then landing a triple salchow, and rightfully so. His upper body movement, combined with his steps and use of music is remarkable. Every time a skater watches Patrick skate, we are in awe of what he is able to do. I am a skater and never once have I thought Patrick undeservingly won a competition. I think everyone should remember the COP judging system rewards more than just landing jumps, it rewards quality skating, transitions, choreography and spins as well.

 

[FSGMT]

The topic header is : What are you looking forward to most this season?

It is not "what do you hope for this season from your favorite skaters"

Some members are very interested in rule changes and the general effect of the CoP on skating this season.

I have too much affection for too many skaters to list them all but for instance wonder more about how the "Shibs" will be scored this season as opposed to how they will actually skate. :think:

I do have quite a bit of curiosity about how the ever changing scoring system will impact skating this season.

In all honesty if feels to me that some fans are more concerned about how the scoring will effect their favoites than they are about their new programs/coaching changes/music & costumes...etc.

The scoring system is the star of skating heading into this season. Others may feel differently but that is howI see it.

It's sad to say, but you're right... With this judging system, you never know how high or low the scores will be, because you can't know the levels they're going to give or the < jumps... So, yes, the ISU judging system has to be discussed, we fans have to say our opinions about it, especially if this is going to affect our favourite skaters, I think it's normal to care about them!
And I forgot to write in my hopes for next season that I'm really excited about the Shibs' Geisha, they worked with a Japanese choreographer, so I expect it to be different from all those lifeless geisha programs we've seen in the past, more japanese, more related with the theme of the music... I really hope they will return at the top!

 

[Buttercup]

I just want to give my two cents.... Patrick Chan is the greatest skater in the World, at this moment. No one can deliver such difficult programs. Maybe everyone should try this... Count how many cross cuts Patrick does in one program. And then count how many cross cuts his competitors do. That will show you how much more difficult Patrick's programs are. He does transitions and steps and turns his whole program.

I think the point some people are making is that Patrick Chan can't deliver them a good percentage of the time, either - but the scoring does not necessarily reflect it. Also, I remember someone last season analyzing Chan's programs vs. Takahashi, and concluding that Dai had more transitions while Chan had more variety in his transitions. So how do you compare?

BTW, I've always been curious - is Canada the only place where crossovers are called crosscuts? How did they get that name?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Chan DESERVES to win with the falls, simply because his skating is better than the others'! His edges are deeper, his choreography is more difficult and has more transitions than anyone else in the world, the quality of his elements is amazing, so the GOEs in the good elements are high enough to counterbalance the mistakes, and I think it's correct. This is the good thing in the CoP system: you don't just have to count the mistakes in the jumps and give deductions, you have to compare the difficulty, the quality, the position of every element, and everything can make the difference, even a step sequence. And, unlike most of you, I like this! Like in 2010, I completely agreed when Lysacek won over Plushy, he was more artistic, more complete, his program had the "full package", Plushy did the jumps and nothing else (at least, for me)... And, let me say that falling is normal when you try a 2-quads/7-triples program, concentrating also on the spins and the steps!
And, sorry, but I don't think Chan's programs is Nice had "huge errors": one silly fall at the end and a popped jump in the FS, a couple of little losses of balance in the SP... who skated better? He deserved that world title (as well as the first)! The crowd that booed him evidently didn't understand anything about this new system...

Choreography being more difficult does not mean great choreography, however. Nor does it speak to his abilities in performance and interpretation, which are judged components. Chan is often inferior in all of those areas to others, especially when he makes such damaging mistakes. Chan's fall in his FS at 2012 Worlds wasn't a "silly" mistake, he fell before even doing the Double Axel. That means he lost over 5 points right there. In addition to the mistake on his earlier combination, which lost over 5 points in comparison to what it could have been, that is indeed a lot of mistakes (he also left out a double jump in combination from the program, if you want to get really CoP technical...that's what lost Plushenko the Olympics, after all). As for who skated better, Takahashi obviously did. Hanyu did in the FS as well. Chan's FS being judged above Joubert's cleaner FS at 2012 Worlds is accurate judging, however, since Joubert's program is a lot more simplistic and has less quality in the spins/steps as compared to these other competitors.

 

[Mathman]

Just curious if I have this right.....

A fall in '02 was a .4 deduction and a two footed landing was a .2 deduction?

How is that the same as the new CoP rules where falls and two footed landings are both -3 GOE?

What bothers me more is that not all two footed landings are the same. Ashley at times has a habit of barely brushing the ice with her other skate.
Is that the same as a two footed landing that plunks down, and causes disruption of the flow out?

If I explained that right it is hardly the same at all. It seems unbelievable that a micro managed system like the IJS would not be able to assign -GOE based on the level of disruption of various 2 footed landings.

That would atleast feel consistent with the values ofthe CoP.

This would also naturally set up more disputes..."was that really a -2 GOE? Her foot barely touched the ice and did not disrupt the flow."

Falls feel different to me..... your down, you disrupted not just the flow of the jump but of the choreo and feeling of the program.

Maybe I heard Button too many times saying something like "Sasha was casting a spell over us but it was broken by that fall."

As usual I agree with Button.

My feeling is that the ISU cannot make up its mind as to exactly what it wishes to accomplish with the Short (or "Technical") Program. If it is just a shorter version of the long program, well, OK, that's one way to go (and not a bad one in my humble opinion).

But the other current is that the Short Program should comprise a list of well-defined technical elements that the skaters are expected to be able to perform. Unlike the long program, there have always been a minimal number of circumstances where the rules "just say no" -- you didn't satisfy the requirement for that element. Under the current rules there are only two errors that are so bad that the rules just say no. (1) "One or more revolutions less than required (this is not under-rotation" but rather, the rules say to do a triple jump and you do a double.) And (2) "Combo consisting of one jump only" (i.e., you did not do a combo at all. This includes the case where you cannot complete the combo because you fell on the first jump.)

Everything else is up for grabs. Falls, "landing on two feet," stepping out of landing, touch down with both hands. two three-turns between the jumps in a combo, severe wrong edge takeoff for Lutz and flip -- all of these carry suggested penalties of -3 or -2, which judges can balance against other positive or negative features of the jump. The actual rules are a little vague but presumably they allow judges to penalize a jump where the other foot just grazes the ice less that one that lands plop on two feet. I guess in principle the same leeway is allowed for "good" falls versus bad ones. Although, as you say, any fall is bound to disrupt the flow of a program, so almost all falls get -3's across the board, whereas not all two-footed landings do.

By the way, as far as new rules, the 54th ISU Congress passed two changes in "special regulations and technical rules" for the new season.

(1) The ten per cent bonus for jumps in the second half of the program will be in force for the short program as well as the long. So expect to see more backloading/less frontloading in the SP this season.

(2) If something falls off your costume onto the ice, that's a 1 point deduction. (Use stronger thread, all you costumers. )

 

[janetfan]

Thanks for the explanation mathman.

If as you say two footed landings can be given a variable -GOE ranging from -1 through -3 then it makes more sense to me.

I am still with the former system on this one though where a fall was considered twice as bad as a two footed landing.


Now what if we see a two footed landing immediately followed by a stumle and loss of balance that ends up with the skater falling. :think:

 

[cornell08]

Most looking forward to two ladies' freeskates in particular:

Gracie Gold's Life is Beautiful debut on the senior grand prix!

Caroline Zhang's Nessun Dorma and hoping she doesn't peak late for once

 

[skateluvr]

I wish I shared the enthusiasm for Gold's LP. I wish she would scrap the music and start from scratch. Her SP is more appropriate for her age and abilities right now. Is is possible to change her LP at this point? I feel Zhang will have a good season. I think she has confidence, as well as better jumps, and better ice coverage from what little I saw on internet, but that is hard to judge unless one sees it live. Caroline has drive, and I respect that. I am an Ashley fan first, but Gracie is our hope. It is hard not to root for Caroline, as she seems very genuine.

 

[Victura]

It's time to get back to the topic, everyone!

What am I looking forward to most this season?

-good seasons for Brian Joubert up to Sochi: 1) finally winning CoC and complete 6 GP wins, yay! (sorry Dai...but you do have NHK, right? ) 2) a podium finish at Worlds one more time, AND 3) have 2 great performances at the Olympic Games (finally) so that he can go out of his competitive career on a high note.

I second this, deedee1! I am rooting for the older crop of skaters who have shown perseverance year in and year out, and Brian Joubert is at the top of that list. I also hope for Alissa Czisny to get back to form quickly and prove that her Worlds performance was just a fluke and come back with two beautiful programs and some great competitions.

 

[deedee1]

I am also looking forward to ubers of all types saving the uberish posts for the relevant threads. Alas, I have no great faith in this happening.

I do have great faith in this! Let me go further for you, buttercup.

I am looking forward to...
At the end of the season, all ubers and its anti- to agree on the winners and everything. Then GS Forum gets so peaceful and boring during off season, so that Paula, doris, toni and Mathman can take a L~~~ONG vacation! :yes: (and toni can't help but screams from the beach in Bora Bora, Tahiti Islands asking someone to create new threads. )

Yes, yes, I know I am one stupid, optimistic dreamer!
But you have heard me, skating god?!, so have ubers...

 

[let`s talk]

Getting desperate?!

Pardon if I hurt you by thinking that a long-term multi-thousand-post user like yourself doesn't know that -6 GOE is not possible. I sincerely thought you were just either lamely trolling or kidding eveyone by pretending that you don't know that -6 GOE doesn't exist, as well as -4, -5, -11GOE, etc. If you indeed don't know that -6 GOE is not in apply, then I suggest you read ISU site. Some of their Communications are available in the Reference secton in Luzt Corner GS subforum.

What are you looking forward to most this season?

For me it could be put in two words- Fair Play. All the rest will follow.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Pardon if I hurt you by thinking that a long-term multi-thousand-post user like yourself doesn't know that -6 GOE is not possible. I sincerely thought you were just either lamely trolling or kidding eveyone by pretending that you don't know that -6 GOE doesn't exist, as well as -4, -5, -11GOE, etc. If you indeed don't know that -6 GOE is not in apply, then I suggest you read ISU site. Some of their Communications are available in the Reference secton in Luzt Corner GS subforum.

To be honest, I've never seen -6 GOEs either. But I've given my thoughts on the possible reason why there has never been -6 GOEs. Is there a separate calculation on "steps preceding the jump in SP"?

If you know so well about this, why don't you quit beating around the bush. And give out your clear answer to the scenario you created. So other readers and I could learn something new from you.

 

[let`s talk]

If you know so well about this, why don't you quit beating around the bush. And give out your clear answer to the scenario you created. So other readers and I could learn something new from you.

Pardon again if I made you feel beaten. Others seem like to know that -6 GOE doesn't exist. You can enjoy the ISU site or Reference secion in Lutz Corner to educate yourself.