What's Your Favorite Jump Combination?

[Globetrotter]

Sandpiper, yoohoo, agree 200% on CoP on the men. I really dislike it when the competition becomes a splatfest when the guys go for those huge things. Issue here is I find that those splatfest are not sufficiently penalised. I am ok for -3 GOE and an overall -1 point penalty but somehow, the PCS do not quite reflect the splats. Some falls (e.g. Hanyu on the 3F in Sochi LP, Chan's botched 3A in same comp) can be quite disruptive and jarring, so that ought to get docked on the PE component but was not apparently so. I know this can be subjective but thats the weakness. Realistically, I wonder how the judges can split their attention to so many different details? If there is some ways that the GOE panel and the PCS panel are split, it might be a step towards more transparent scoring.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

More transparent scoring will happen when judges are forced to show their scores. Until then, the judges aren't actually splitting their attention to so many different details (or few can).

Judges need to take accountability for what their GOE on a jump combination is, so that somebody can call them out on it after. Same goes with PCS.

Honestly, it's so easy to be a judge these days, because you can literally put whatever PCS or GOE score you want, and nobody will know any better. (sorry, , back to jump combos!)

 

[leoncorazon]

Michelle Kwan's triple lutz double loop...sublime...

 

[ArcticMonkeys]

Among ladies, Yuna is the one has the perfect jump technique in edge work, jumping distance and height.

I agree :thumbsup:

Her jumps just are so beautiful

 

[Warwick360]

Sandpiper, yoohoo, agree 200% on CoP on the men. I really dislike it when the competition becomes a splatfest when the guys go for those huge things. Issue here is I find that those splatfest are not sufficiently penalised. I am ok for -3 GOE and an overall -1 point penalty but somehow, the PCS do not quite reflect the splats. Some falls (e.g. Hanyu on the 3F in Sochi LP, Chan's botched 3A in same comp) can be quite disruptive and jarring, so that ought to get docked on the PE component but was not apparently so. I know this can be subjective but thats the weakness. Realistically, I wonder how the judges can split their attention to so many different details? If there is some ways that the GOE panel and the PCS panel are split, it might be a step towards more transparent scoring.

Let's not limit the CoP score debate if we're really going to drag it out. Personally I don't have a problem considering it dragged Hanyu to GPF, all the way from CoC.

But seriously speaking, more than men, I am still baffled how Kostner got 73+in her CoP in Worlds program (even though I like her and consider her Bolero to be my favourite program from her, even more so than the overly hyped Ave Maria) even after falling and tumbling the number of times she did. Even with the dramatic ending, I hardly think it deserved to be anywhere over or near 70.

 

[Warwick360]

Speaking of combination, can someone please explain to me how the maximum GOE one can get is determined for combinations.

For example what would be the difference in the maximum GOE one can get between a 3A-2T to 3A-3T. Or is it same because the initial jumps are the same?

 

[matmuh]

Speaking of combination, can someone please explain to me how the maximum GOE one can get is determined for combinations.

For example what would be the difference in the maximum GOE one can get between a 3A-2T to 3A-3T. Or is it same because the initial jumps are the same?

its depends on combos including quad- triple- double, for example if you do quad as part of it you get GOE given without factoring it (from -3 to +3), if you do triple as your highest degree jump you get the GOEx 0.7 (-2.1 to +2.1), if you have double as highest degree jump they factor GOE with 0.5 (from -1.5 to +1.5)
but axel is the exception, for example 3A is cosidered as quad jump so it gets -3 to +3, 2A is considered triple and so on, i hope its the answer you are looking for ( and i hope i m not wrong )

edit: seems like its a little more complicated when its comes to double jumps,
if you have 2A as your highest value jump, you factor it with 0.5, for 2Lz-2F-2Lo you factor it with 0.3 and for 2S-2T-1A you factor it with 0.2 you can check this page for jumps BV and GOEs

 

[dorispulaski]

Mostly right, the 3A get max GOE of 3.0, like a quad, but the 2A gets max GOE of 1.5, like a double.

Communication 1884
http://static.isu.org/media/154325/1884-sandp-amendments-and-corrections-to-1861.pdf

Now I believe a combo gets the max GOE set by the hardest jump in the combo, so 2A3T would get max 2.1, for the triple toe?

 

[matmuh]

Mostly right, the 3A get max GOE of 3.0, like a quad, but the 2A gets max GOE of 1.5, like a double.

Communication 1884
http://static.isu.org/media/154325/1884-sandp-amendments-and-corrections-to-1861.pdf

Now I believe a combo gets the max GOE set by the hardest jump in the combo, so 2A3T would get max 2.1, for the triple toe?

yeah, i wasnt sure so i checked and edited my post also for 2A3T you get max 2.1 (i calculated haha)

 

[Alchamei]

It was mentioned above, but it is exactly the thing I hate about today's men figure skating: Everyone does unbeliably hard programs with two or even three quads, one of them in the second half and two triple Axels. But rarely even the top men manage to skate the whole program cleanly. They often fall on or pop quads and other jumps ... But still place better that cleaner skater because it's much better to fall on and rotate the quad toe than to pop it into triple.

 

[alia jackson]

^^^ But there are also skaters who does not have quads who also fell or popped their triples and doubles :confused2:

Maybe everyone should skate the to the same exact required elements or programs for SP and FP, the only different is their music choice. Then they all can be judge apple to apple

 

[sunnystars]

Maybe everyone should skate the to the same exact required elements or programs for SP and FP, the only different is their music choice. Then they all can be judge apple to apple

i like my apples to be different so no thanks

 

[plushyfan]

Sandpiper, yoohoo, agree 200% on CoP on the men. I really dislike it when the competition becomes a splatfest when the guys go for those huge things. Issue here is I find that those splatfest are not sufficiently penalised. I am ok for -3 GOE and an overall -1 point penalty but somehow, the PCS do not quite reflect the splats. Some falls (e.g. Hanyu on the 3F in Sochi LP, Chan's botched 3A in same comp) can be quite disruptive and jarring, so that ought to get docked on the PE component but was not apparently so. I know this can be subjective but thats the weakness. Realistically, I wonder how the judges can split their attention to so many different details? If there is some ways that the GOE panel and the PCS panel are split, it might be a step towards more transparent scoring.

http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skating/1028106306.html

google translating

Alexander Lakernik: "I support the idea to increase the penalty points for errors in quads"

Chairman of the Technical Committee of the International Skating Union (ISU) Lakernik Alexander said that the organization can review the rules for calculating points for quads.

"Many skaters put in their programs for two or three jump in four turns, but not all of them can perform perfectly. The number of points for their execution is large. Artificially limit the complexity of the program - is contrary to the development of sport.

But I support the idea to increase the penalty points for errors or failure to comply with these elements. Then the athletes understand the degree of risk to which they go, and a few will think twice whether to include in the program such complex elements. Maybe quaternary and will be less, but they will be of good quality. I suppose that this issue could be raised at the next congress ISU », - said Lakernik.

 

[Globetrotter]

I think some fans have posted on this forum of a possible suggestion for falls. Mandatory -3 GOE for all falls, final deduction of -1 for the first, -2 for the next and so on. So a 3 splat skater will get -3 GOEs on all three jumps and a total of (-1) + (-2) + (-3) = -6 point deduction. I am also proposing that if the falls prove to be disruptive to the programme, the PCS should also be reduced, specifically in the PE component and possibly also in the IN component since the full interpretation is no longer coherent.

 

[taltaltel]

Mostly right, the 3A get max GOE of 3.0, like a quad, but the 2A gets max GOE of 1.5, like a double.

Communication 1884
http://static.isu.org/media/154325/1884-sandp-amendments-and-corrections-to-1861.pdf

Now I believe a combo gets the max GOE set by the hardest jump in the combo, so 2A3T would get max 2.1, for the triple toe?

I didn't know this before. So, suppose a skater goes with this layout:
3Lz, 3F-3T, 3S-3T, 3Lo, 3S+2T+2Lo, 2A, 2A

The maximum GOE they could get on top of BV would be: 2.1 + 2.1 + 2.1 + 2.1 + 2.1 + 1.5 + 1.5 = 13.5

If a skater goes with this layout:
3Lz, 3F, 2A+3T, 2A+3T, 3Lo, 3S+2T+2Lo, 3S

The maximum GOE they could get would be: 2.1 + 2.1 + 2.1 + 2.1 + 2.1 + 2.1 + 2.1 = 14.7

What is the incentive to do any sort of 3-3 combination then?

 

[Globetrotter]

.....What is the incentive to do any sort of 3-3 combination then?

You can better max out the BV then and only have one jump that requires you to tag a triple as the second jump. I shall use your second example to illustrate and bracket up the jumps that go past the half way mark.

3Lz, 3F, 2A+3T, 2A+3T, 2nd half (3Lo, 3S+2T+2Lo, 3S): BV = 44.36; Max GOE = 14.7. In your example, the skater repeats 3T and 3S, the two triples with the lowest base value.

My proposal which includes 3-3 (using Elena Radionova's jump layout)

3Lz-3T, 3F, 3Lz, 2nd half (3R-1R-3S, 2A, 2A, 3R-2T): BV = 46.48; Max GOE = 14.7. in this case, you repeat the lutz and the loop which gives a higher BV

 

[Warwick360]

its depends on combos including quad- triple- double, for example if you do quad as part of it you get GOE given without factoring it (from -3 to +3), if you do triple as your highest degree jump you get the GOEx 0.7 (-2.1 to +2.1), if you have double as highest degree jump they factor GOE with 0.5 (from -1.5 to +1.5)
but axel is the exception, for example 3A is cosidered as quad jump so it gets -3 to +3, 2A is considered triple and so on, i hope its the answer you are looking for ( and i hope i m not wrong )

edit: seems like its a little more complicated when its comes to double jumps,
if you have 2A as your highest value jump, you factor it with 0.5, for 2Lz-2F-2Lo you factor it with 0.3 and for 2S-2T-1A you factor it with 0.2 you can check this page for jumps BV and GOEs

Thanks. I had checked the wiki page before but it hadn't cleared my GOE misunderstanding about the combinations, but I think the forum has more or less cleared it for me.

 

[matmuh]

Thanks. I had checked the wiki page before but it hadn't cleared my GOE misunderstanding about the combinations, but I think the forum has more or less cleared it for me.

well, the judges give GOEs from -3 to +3 regardless of the jump being quad-triple-double etc, then they factor the average (minus highest and lowest GOE given by judge) with a number, that number depends on the jump being quad- triple etc,

to give an example
lets say the jump combo is 4T3T,3A3T, 3A2Lo, in this case biggest jump in this combo is quad so it will get goe from -3 to +3 (3A is also considered as quad)
when jump combo is lets say for 3T3T, 3Lz2T, 3F 1/2lo 3Sal, 2A3T, highest jump we have is triple so they factor average GOE with 0.7 and combo will get goe from -2.1 to +2.1
it gets little complicated with doubles factoring values but its the same logic