Women and the Quad

[silveruskate]

I thought upto 1/2 turn pre-rotation was ok going by the rulebook. Not to mention as shown by the video below, the first 4Lzes by men were also done with 1/2 turn pre-rotation.

https://youtu.be/9DGyuJDk2X8

GOE with quads also works completely differently to triples, unless you fall or step out it's unlikely you'll get negative GOE, and on the Men's side I've seen many shaky landings get +1/+2. Not to mention with triples it's unlikely you'll get +5 without any transition whereas that happens with quads. For example Yuzuru was scored +3 (old judging-system) by all judges except one for a tightly landed 4S in the Olympics FS which didn't feature a transition into or out of the jump.

 

[lzxnl]

I thought upto 1/2 turn pre-rotation was ok going by the rulebook. Not to mention as shown by the video below, the first 4Lzes by men were also done with 1/2 turn pre-rotation.

https://youtu.be/9DGyuJDk2X8

GOE with quads also works completely differently to triples, unless you fall or step out it's unlikely you'll get negative GOE, and on the Men's side I've seen many shaky landings get +1/+2. Not to mention with triples it's unlikely you'll get +5 without any transition whereas that happens with quads. For example Yuzuru was scored +3 (old judging-system) by all judges except one for a tightly landed 4S in the Olympics FS which didn't feature a transition into or out of the jump.

Rule book also calls for a downgrade on a forward takeoff, which we can see is NOT being applied strictly.

 

[sx98423]

Huh, how so? He's been doing it for 4 seasons now, and hit 8/10 attempts at Worlds/Olympics. He's 7/8 at 4CC, which is an even better percentage. That's consistent.



Of these Trusova quads, the first one is a Lutz, the others Toes. Here is the Lutz:

Takeoff / Landing

That is short. The commentary in the video is hilarious too, he's exclaiming "all the way around!" when she's clearly not around, right there in the direct camera angle, with the blade grinding sideways in the ice! People don't know what they are looking at, sorry to say.

For the other examples you gave, 2nd video was 1/4 turn short on the Quad Toe.

That last Quad Toe, though, might be the best I've seen her do for rotation; seems enough to escape a < call. It's still definitely not all the way around, but "sufficient". That one is from her most recent competition, interestingly. Maybe she is getting more comfortable with it. Still, the GOE should be low. There's a slightly jerky landing position and lack of full rotation, not much distance covered, no difficult entrance. There's no reason to give extra points. It's just an "okay" 4Toe attempt.

I'd also like to point out how completely the performance breaks. Her arms are drooped at her side all the whole way down the the ice, posture is not elegant or expressive, she's looking down, no choreography, no relation to the music, and slowing down as she goes into the jump. No expression when landing the jump either. This is not what skating should be. Congrats for doing the jump, but her PCS should be very low and this kind of a performance with a Quad should not beat a good program with "only" Triples.

it seems to me like you're using different standards for the ladies compared to the men. boyang for ex. completely breaks his performance when he sets up his quads. men like jason brown have good programs but no quads. you're suggesting that a lack of artistry can be made up by higher tech, or that low tech can be made up by artistry. so why does sasha need to have both PCs and perfect quads to score well? sasha's quads might not be the best but compared to all quads being done right now they're definitely way above average. she's also not the most artistic but she's definitely above average in terms of PCs as well. by your standards she should be doing as well as a quadster with no artistic chops or an artistic skater with no quads.

 

[tral]

I thought upto 1/2 turn pre-rotation was ok going by the rulebook. Not to mention as shown by the video below, the first 4Lzes by men were also done with 1/2 turn pre-rotation.

https://youtu.be/9DGyuJDk2X8

Does Blades of Passion condone such attempts from men? It doesn't seem so.

Wasn't Brandon Mroz's attempt ratified? Doesn't seem like it should have been from that video.

For the women, I think this is a start, a very commendable effort. Maybe some lady will come along who can indeed do perfect quads. In the meantime, though, these should be called UR. As for height, I do think correct technique would give them better chances of achieving it. Moreover, taking Shoma Uno's incredible torque on his knees and hips as a case, it will also make sure they have better chances at avoiding injuries.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Sasha prerotates - that’s a fact and don’t try to argue against it, but she doesn’t underrotate, her early 4Lz attempts were UR, but her 4T has amazing rotation. She has almost no UR honestly (if you don’t count PR). And again, another fact, 62.9 cm (Sasha’s 4T height) is no joke. That’s a really big height, and even though it not be the biggest quad ever, it’s still really incredible. Besides we shouldn’t be comparing a 150cm girl’s jump height with a 172 cm man’s jump height, of course they’re going to be a little different.

 

[Arbitrary]

Sasha prerotates - that’s a fact and don’t try to argue against it, but she doesn’t underrotate, her early 4Lz attempts were UR, but her 4T has amazing rotation. She has almost no UR honestly (if you don’t count PR). And again, another fact, 62.9 cm (Sasha’s 4T height) is no joke. That’s a really big height, and even though it not be the biggest quad ever, it’s still really incredible. Besides we shouldn’t be comparing a 150cm girl’s jump height with a 172 cm man’s jump height, of course they’re going to be a little different.

But the biggest quad among female skaters.

 

[moriel]

Sasha prerotates - that’s a fact and don’t try to argue against it, but she doesn’t underrotate, her early 4Lz attempts were UR, but her 4T has amazing rotation. She has almost no UR honestly (if you don’t count PR). And again, another fact, 62.9 cm (Sasha’s 4T height) is no joke. That’s a really big height, and even though it not be the biggest quad ever, it’s still really incredible. Besides we shouldn’t be comparing a 150cm girl’s jump height with a 172 cm man’s jump height, of course they’re going to be a little different.

Sasha prerotates, but its not really atrocious, and she doesn't UR much.
I mean, Shoma's quads are ratified and get insane GOE. Vincent's quads are (sometimes) ratified. Hanyu's stepouts into spread eagle get massive GOEs. Imho, the benefit of doubt Trusova gets on her jumps is not bigger than quite a handful of men get on theirs.

 

[silveruskate]

Rule book also calls for a downgrade on a forward takeoff, which we can see is NOT being applied strictly.

1/2 turn pre-rotation and forward take-off are completely different, but then I don't want to assume that's what you're talking about?

Does Blades of Passion condone such attempts from men? It doesn't seem so.

Wasn't Brandon Mroz's attempt ratified? Doesn't seem like it should have been from that video.

My post wasn't directed at what is condoned by any one poster. Even if the rules need to change, these Quads by Sasha aren't UR or cheated within the rules just like those that went before her. Pre-rotation is expected, the only debate is how much is too much and any figure we create is arbitrary. 1/2 turn pre-rotation is 1/4 over the pre-rotation for a standard Lutz, same as how 1/4 UR on landing is 1/4 less than a standard Lutz, neither are penalised.

 

[tral]

My post wasn't directed at what is condoned by any one poster.

I'll take your word for it. To me, given the nature of threads, it looked like you were pointing out directly to that poster that "the first 4Lzes by men were also done with 1/2 turn pre-rotation". To me at least, it's irrelevant what the first men to attempt a 4Lz did more than what makes a great 4Lz.

1/2 turn pre-rotation and forward take-off are completely different, but then I don't want to assume that's what you're talking about?

I am glad you differentiate between these two, though. Seems like there's confusion between what "forward take-off" and "1/2 turn pre-rotation" mean. To me, a "forward take-off" is what makes a toe-axel, and 1/2 turn pre-rotation is what makes a run-of-the-mill toe loop. If "forward take-off" just meant 1/2 turn pre-rotation, then it would be weird, because the rule book would call for downgrading perfectly normal loops, salchows, and toe-loops.

ETA: On that topic though, seems Trusova is past 1/2 turn on her 4Lz take-off? So it would indeed be under-rotated if she lands on the "1/4" mark.

 

[Alex65]

What about this? This is definitely over-rotated. Therefore, Sasha was not able to leave well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwtnrUQaJog&t=309s

 

[Blades of Passion]

Wasn't Brandon Mroz's attempt ratified? Doesn't seem like it should have been from that video.

I said in 2011 that it was cheated and shouldn't have been ratified. This jump rotation subject is something I've been vocal about for over a decade. Here's one of my posts about it from back then that I could find - https://goldenskate.com/forum/showt...z-s-Quad-Lutz!&p=586271&viewfull=1#post586271

Besides we shouldn’t be comparing a 150cm girl’s jump height with a 172 cm man’s jump height, of course they’re going to be a little different.

We should be comparing, because all jumps are scored on a universal scale. Being shorter doesn't suddenly mean it's harder to jump bigger either. Look at Midori Ito. Tonya Harding was short too. Yet, they are among the biggest jumpers ever. Being taller actually means you need to push more mass into the air (depending on the exact weight of the skater when comparing different heights), it's not an advantage.

What about this? This is definitely over-rotated. Therefore, Sasha was not able to leave well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwtnrUQaJog&t=309s

She definitely got more backwards there (after pre-rotating), but yeah, then she couldn't control it. I wouldn't call it over-rotated, that's where she should be landing, considering where she took off on the ice.

sasha's quads might not be the best but compared to all quads being done right now they're definitely way above average. she's also not the most artistic but she's definitely above average in terms of PCs as well.

I do not agree with these statements at all. Well, we have to define what "average artistry" is even supposed to mean. If talking about the amount of artistry a top competitor in figure skating should have, then Trusova is definitely below average to me. Again, go back to the skating Michelle Kwan showed when she was the same age as Trusova. There has been a shocking, appalling drop in the level of refinement and performance and artistry and basic quality seen in skating, and the scores should reflect it. If Kwan was a high bar, then we can compare to other examples too. Irina Slutskaya's best performance that same year for example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJRzBUQblbQ - Slutskaya was less refined and artistic than Kwan, yet look at how much superior the performance still is in comparison to Trusova.

Similarly, with regards to her quads, Trusova's are below average compared to what a good Quad should be. Seriously go and compare to all of the top competitors who have done them since the 90's, starting with Stojko. Maybe she is doing a commendable job with trying these jumps specifically for a female competitor, but that doesn't speak to how rotation and GOE should be assessed. Overall, the programs she's showing should not be scoring higher than, say, Yu-Na Kim at 2013 Worlds.

 

[oatmella]

I think we are moving off the topic of ladies quads with the comparisons to Kwan and Slutskaya.

Grown men also have the advantage of strength - compared to young girls. Nathan does quite a bit of strength training, and I’m sure other skaters do as well.

Midori Ito and Tonya Harding were short, but they also had muscular and strong body types.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Having a body type advantage is irrelevant. That's just how it goes, people have certain physical abilities and get rewarded for them in sport. If you don't have the same ability, then you don't get the same points. Men are generally better able to do jumps in this sport. That's just how it goes. We also saw how females generally had better flexibility, and used to get rewarded for it. These days, not so much, it's become a lost quality. No more spiral sequences...

 

[Alex65]

Having a body type advantage is irrelevant. That's just how it goes, people have certain physical abilities and get rewarded for them in sport. If you don't have the same ability, then you don't get the same points. Men are generally better able to do jumps in this sport. That's just how it goes. We also saw how females generally had better flexibility, and used to get rewarded for it. These days, not so much, it's become a lost quality. No more spiral sequences...

It makes a huge difference. Other sports: athletics, swimming and others. Men always have an advantage where strength matters. The best achievements in high jumps for women are barely more than 200 cm, while for men it is 245+. Can you answer which of the jumps is more outstanding: a woman at 205 or a man at 240? What will be outstanding, and what is so-so?

 

[oatmella]

Grown men are stronger and have more muscle mass that younger girls - and while obvious, guess it’s important to note that they will not be competing against each other. Also a fact that ladies quads are not judged against the standards of the top men, whether or not you agree with this.

Ito and Harding were muscular and likely not super light for their heights. So their ability to achieve great height on their jumps cannot simply be explained by that they were short with less body mass.

 

[yume]

I have the impression that Mao's 3As were judged against the standard of top men, given the kind of GOEs that she was usually getting for them...
Being basically the only lady to successfully land 3As in two entire quads and getting that...

 

[Blades of Passion]

Grown men are stronger and have more muscle mass that younger girls - and while obvious, guess it’s important to note that they will not be competing against each other. Also a fact that ladies quads are not judged against the standards of the top men, whether or not you agree with this.

This is not a "fact" at all. Jumps are supposed to be judged universally. The rules say nothing about judging jumps differently between men and women, nor should they.

Ito and Harding were muscular and likely not super light for their heights. So their ability to achieve great height on their jumps cannot simply be explained by that they were short with less body mass.

You don't seem to be following the conversation. Someone said the jumps of "short women" can not be compared to "taller men". Well, yes, they can be. Midori Ito and Tonya Harding also showed how extremely big jumps can be done (and without extra pre-rotation) despite being short. Trusova is not able to match them, and it's a fallacy to try and shrug off her inferior capability because of having less muscle or height. It doesn't matter what someone's height/weight/musculature is, you are only supposed to be judged on what you can do. If you are physically less capable of doing something, then you get less points, and that's all there is to it.

It makes a huge difference. Other sports: athletics, swimming and others. Men always have an advantage where strength matters. The best achievements in high jumps for women are barely more than 200 cm, while for men it is 245+. Can you answer which of the jumps is more outstanding: a woman at 205 or a man at 240? What will be outstanding, and what is so-so?

This is why sports are split between sexes though. Men have a physical advantage on average. The question of which is relatively more outstanding doesn't matter if you are looking at singular human achievement in terms of a world record, like "highest jump ever" or "fastest to swim across the English channel".

There's also no differentiation between relative amounts of "outstandingness" in those sports. You get judged on exactly how fast you swim or how high you jump, and the medals are given accordingly. A woman swimming 1 second faster than another woman is not worth 1.1 seconds worth of time, just because that may be the average differential of achievement between woman's swimming and men's swimming.

This doesn't mean that something is inherently lesser in terms of audience appeal though. Women's figure skating, for example, has not been historically less admired than Men's, despite showing a lower level of jumping ability.

 

[silveruskate]

I'll take your word for it. To me, given the nature of threads, it looked like you were pointing out directly to that poster that "the first 4Lzes by men were also done with 1/2 turn pre-rotation". To me at least, it's irrelevant what the first men to attempt a 4Lz did more than what makes a great 4Lz.

Wasn't directed at what is condoned by any one poster. I'm just trying to look at what the rules say is required for a Lutz.

And on your other point I agree completely, forward take-off is when you pick-in into the ice with your skate facing forward not turning on the toe-pick i.e pre-rotation.

 

[oatmella]

This is not a "fact" at all. Jumps are supposed to be judged universally. The rules say nothing about judging jumps differently between men and women, not should they.

Regardless, a ladies 4Lz receiving +4/5 GOE is not necessarily going to be equivalent to the one Nathan did at worlds FS - highest scoring single jump/4Lz - or the height of Boyang’s best.

No more references to cheating/admissions scandal are necessary

 

[Blades of Passion]

Regardless, a ladies 4Lz receiving +4/5 GOE is not necessarily going to be equivalent to the one Nathan did at worlds or the height of Boyang’s best.

It should be, otherwise it's being scored wrong. Judges should have a clear mental picture of a best possible execution and be comparing to that. If they are receiving +4/5 for mediocrity, then they won't improve. When will we ever again see a Midori Ito 3Axel, if everyone thinks they don't need to achieve that level to get max points anyway?