Women and the Quad

[Alexz]

I don't think that is going to happen. The men are better jumpers. Triple axels are easy for most of the senior men but still fairly elusive for the ladies. We'll see if quads become more than a rarity with female skaters. I have my doubts. I am fairly certain there will never be a female skater at the technical level of the top men, like Hanyu, Chen and Uno.

You certnly can have your own personal doubts. Please dont offtop about triples here. =) We are discussing what is already real innthia thread here and now - quads. Testosterone level is not a factor in figure skating. Women actually are better jumpers, they develop earlier than boys. Physically and athletically. Biological fact. Quad ladies already at techical level or higher than ~75% of the current Men's field. And that is just a first generation of quad ladies. I expect men to advance slightly more in next few years as few new strong juniors will enter the seniors relatively soon, but sooner or later ladies will catch up. Will see how fast.

 

[Alexz]

+3 for the “more mature” skater

I hearby score you with perfect 6.0 for your snarky wit. Landed it with such precision. Level 4 humor, difficult transition and creative position. Unexpected entry. Amazing execution. Good flow out the element. It was a total +5 GoE delivery. ≈)

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I hearby score you with perfect 6.0 for your snarky wit. Landed it with such precision. Level 4 humor, difficult transition and creative position. Unexpected entry. Amazing execution. Good flow out the element. It was a total +5 GoE delivery. ≈)

You forgot to factor Mathman’s superior maturity over mine. It’s why I always come up a bit short. No snark intended.

I think the bottom line is that more and more people seem to enjoy the technical goods over basic performance skill. At least there seems to be a growing core of fans that value and appreciate the most physically demanded programs. I personally find a similar beauty to a masterful performance of the highest level rooted in athletic skill as I find in a masterful performance of the highest level of interpretation. Even if I wouldn’t score them quite so equally on a score sheet.

 

[moriel]

You forgot to factor Mathman’s superior maturity over mine. It’s why I always come up a bit short. No snark intended.

I think the bottom line is that more and more people seem to enjoy the technical goods over basic performance skill. At least there seems to be a growing core of fans that value and appreciate the most physically demanded programs. I personally find a similar beauty to a masterful performance of the highest level rooted in athletic skill as I find in a masterful performance of the highest level of interpretation. Even if I wouldn’t score them quite so equally on a score sheet.

I kind of enjoy basic performance skill, but then it comes coupled with decent technical goods.
So no jumps program = boooooring, but between two programs with jumps, surely better nonjump elements and better performance win

Its understandable that some people want to watch mostly the performance, but i feel that a huge chunk of the audience watches fs as a sport in first place.

 

[Ice Dance]

Have you seen any US skater who is not White or not Asian (and not Asian American in first generation, except Alysa) OR any US skater coming from a very modest family background and low income?

Yes. The fact that you can even ask this question is a rather sad commentary on a real problem, IMO; but yes, of course, we have seen U.S. skaters who are not white/100% Caucasian or Asian American. (Debbie Thomas, Starr Andrews, Emmanuel Savary, Pooja Kalyan (if you do not count India as Asia, which one could) Tai Babilonia, Yasmin Siraj, Elizabeth Punsalun, Naomi Lang, etc. I could name several of the younger athletes currently competing at Nationals whom I would assume represent other ethnicities but I'd hesitate to do so as they aren't famous enough to have wikipedia pages clarifying their family's background, etc. Of course, this doesn't mean that the families of some of these athletes aren't well off. Some are & some aren't. Some have definitely had difficulty staying in the sport and/or maximizing their potential due to struggles with funding. Athletes do need financial support, and I do believe the lack of it is a major obstacle that must be overcome to increase the diversity and consequently the competitive depth of figure skating in the U.S.

(I haven't seen a lot of non-Caucasian/not 100% Caucasian or non-Asian Russian athletes enrolled in figure skating either; and I would be happy to see them).

 

[Mathman]

Well. We are energized and interested in quads in Men's field. I am, aren't you?

Sure I am. You and I are in the choir in the church of Yuzuru Hanyu and Nathan Chen. (Not to mention Alexandra Trusova.)

Still, I would be interested in seeing a plot of "number of quads done in a competition" versus "live gate and tv ratings." over the last 10 years. I am not optimistic that (outside of Russia and Japan) the sport will ever regain the popularity that it had in the 1990s, no matter how many quad axels and quints our marvelous heroes present us with.

 

[Mathman]

You forgot to factor Mathman’s superior maturity over mine. It’s why I always come up a bit short. No snark intended.

I wasn't talking about old. Artistic maturity, whatever age the artist is. Einstein was 26 the year (1905) that he invented special relativity and also set the stage for quantum theory. He was "scientifically mature."

I think the bottom line is that more and more people seem to enjoy the technical goods over basic performance skill.

That is the question. In these debates I read many opinions. I wish there were some actual data to support them.

 

[jenaj]

You certnly can have your own personal doubts. Please dont offtop about triples here. =) We are discussing what is already real innthia thread here and now - quads. Testosterone level is not a factor in figure skating. Women actually are better jumpers, they develop earlier than boys. Physically and athletically. Biological fact. Quad ladies already at techical level or higher than ~75% of the current Men's field. And that is just a first generation of quad ladies. I expect men to advance slightly more in next few years as few new strong juniors will enter the seniors relatively soon, but sooner or later ladies will catch up. Will see how fast.

I disagree that testosterone is not a factor. Jumping requires strength as does basic skating. Developing earlier does not make women more athletic. I also disagree that women are better jumpers. You state these things as fact, which is what prompts a response.

 

[gkelly]

As far as I can tell (from what I've read and what I've observed over the years):

Some skating-related skills tend to favor typically male body types, others tend to favor typically female body types, and others tend to be sex neutral.

Jumping tends to favor a generally small, light, thin, aerodynamic body with with a high strength-to-weight ratio and explosive muscle power. Broader shoulders and narrower hips will facilitate rotation.

I.e., for adult bodies, the most favorable body type is small and male.

In early adolescence, girls who mature late (and who already have the necessary technique) can be approximately on par jumpwise with boys their own age or a year or two older.

Most girls who mature into typically adult female bodies -- even if they are smaller, thinner, less curvy than the average young woman -- will tend to lose some of their jumping ability as they reach their later teens. Continuing to improve technique will help, but at some point many girls who excelled at jumping as preteens/early teens will no longer be able to jump as high or rotate as quickly. Artificially trying to keep themselves the same size as adults as they were in early adolescence won't be sustainable because they will often end up losing muscle as well as fat.

Therefore, peak jumping age for girls is generally early to mid-teens, and then the jumping ability often plateaus at best while other skills continue to improve.

For men, maturing into an adult body often helps jumping ability improve, as long as they don't grow too tall or overall heavy. (And if they do, to a moderate degree, then pairs might be a good alternative, whereas female pair skaters benefit from being even smaller than the average female singles skater, who are already smaller than average women.)

I.e., it's more likely that junior ladies could keep up with younger junior men on jump content, but for over-19 skaters no longer of junior age, there will be many more men than women capable of triple axels and quads.

If skating success becomes all about jump rotations, then most women will be on the downside of their careers well before they're out of their teens, while men continue to improve into their 20s.

Women who learn high-revolution jumps as teenagers and are fortunate enough to remain small, light, and muscular as young adults may be able to maintain the same jumps they learned earlier, while improving other skills, but women with that kind of body type will be a minority even within the elite skating community, let alone in the population at large.

Of course, injury can interrupt anyone's career, even if they have an ideal body type for skating and jumping.

If there were a unisex competition decided primarily by jump content, it might be more of an even playing field for the 13- to 16-year-old age range (when top female jumpers may be at their peak and top male jumpers not having yet reached theirs), but would likely be heavily dominated by male athletes at older ages.

Flexibility (which is not the same thing as extension, though related) tends to be greater for both sexes in childhood and early adolescence. Both sexes can retain flexibility by continuing to train those skills, while increasing extension and body awareness as well, but on average men will lose more flexibility than women as they mature. This seems to be more true of back arch than hip turnout.

Therefore, to achieve a more level playing field between the sexes at senior level, it would only be fair to value flexibility moves highly as well as jumps. And, of course, blade-to-ice skills that are less dependent on male vs. female body type.

 

[el henry]

....
That is the question. In these debates I read many opinions. I wish there were some actual data to support them.

This.

I do like jumps. I just like other to my mind equally difficult and equally impressive moves more. And I would never ever argue with someone who loves jumps that they shouldn't love jumps. How could I? What would I say next, you shouldn't love vanilla ice cream?

I would love love love love to see real data, interpreted by real live statisticians and marketers and data researchers and those good people, to say their piece. Otherwise, it's my friends versus your friends, and of course my friends win.

Not to mention that at least when some of the "contra" arguments made aren't true, (not directed at you, Mathman, just jumping off hahahaha here) they lose their vigor. To wit:

I have seen quads live up close and personal, really up close as in 50 feet away. And the world's best headless scratch spin. I was more impressed by the scratch spin.

I've been watching since 71, with a break, so I think I've put in my time

I know from sports. After all, I'm not really sure about drafting Andre Dillard when the Birds have such a great OL, but Jason Peters will have retired after this season for sure, and will Dillard be ready? Oh wait a minute....

And I don't want to just see shows. I've seen shows, I like shows, I'm talking comps. Where I value the spin as much, if not more, than the revolutions in the jumps.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Mathman]

This may be somewhat OT for this this quad thread, but here is what I mean by “artistic maturity.” This is Joni Mitchell in 1969 singing “Both Sides Now.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NdsnFZm0X4

And here she is in 2000.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQSlH-LLTQ

Which Joni makes you believe that she's seen life from both sides now?

 

[Elucidus]

If there were a unisex competition decided primarily by jump content, it might be more of an even playing field for the 13- to 16-year-old age range (when top female jumpers may be at their peak and top male jumpers not having yet reached theirs), but would likely be heavily dominated by male athletes at older ages.

Debatable. People calculated already - if Trusova's and Scherbakova's typical performances will be given men's PCS and SP rules (with quads allowed there) - they would easily get into top 6 senior man's WC standings. The thing is - russian young ladies usually are so trained that they have unnaturally high +GOE jumps consistency - while typical adult male performances are quite sloppy with many -GOE elements. In the end any skater of any gender who is capable to get 90+ TES regularly - can be counted to get on the podium in any competition.

 

[Mathman]

I have seen quads live up close and personal, really up close as in 50 feet away. And the world's best headless scratch spin. I was more impressed by the scratch spin.

I can't decide.

Quad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwnqYkMRSyg&t=2m0s

Spin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwnqYkMRSyg&t=3m54s

 

[Mathman]

Debatable. People calculated already - if Trusova's and Scherbakova's typical performances will be given men's PCS and SP rules (with quads allowed there) - they would easily get into top 6 senior man's WC standings.

Still... It remains to be seen what will happen as the ladies move into seniors. It would be weird if figure skating championships became showdowns between 14-year-old girls versus 20-year-old men.

 

[gkelly]

Debatable. People calculated already - if Trusova's and Scherbakova's typical performances will be given men's PCS and SP rules (with quads allowed there) - they would easily get into top 6 senior man's WC standings. The thing is - russian young ladies usually are so trained that they have unnaturally high +GOE jumps consistency - while typical adult male performances are quite sloppy with many -GOE elements. In the end any skater of any gender who is capable to get 90+ TES regularly - can be counted to get on the podium in any competition.

I think you're misunderstanding what I was saying:

If you have a competition of young teenagers only, it's likely that both girls and boys would be competitive against each other for podium positions.

But if you have a competition only of young adults, the young women will have already passed their peak and the young men will just be coming into theirs. So the past-junior-aged women would be at a disadvantage competing against grown men.

Jump-focused unisex competition would be more fair for juniors than for seniors.

By the calculations you mention above, perhaps the fairest competition would be junior ladies vs. senior men.

The junior men would still have hopes to maturing into their peak, but there would be even less of a place in competition for full-grown women.



Because girls might still be at that jumping peak during the first year or two that they're eligible for senior competition, in a jump-focused ladies' event the 16-year-olds will have an advantage over the older women. But by the time those same skaters reach late teens and 20s, they will likely have lost some of their jumping ability. There will be occasional exceptions, but perhaps not enough to fill podiums.

Whereas a jump-focused men's event is likely to favor older teens and 20-somethings.

So the question for the women's senior-level competitions is: Should the rules focus on jump content primarily or reward enough variety of other skills well enough that the skills 20-year-olds tend to do better than 15-year-olds are equally important? Or should there be separate competitions that favor girls at their jumping peak or women at their skating skill and performance peak? If separate, should they be divided by age (i.e., higher senior age minimums) or by different rules for point-earning opportunities? Or should the senior event always be dominated by first- and second-year seniors who then burn out as their bodies finish maturing and even younger jumpers come along to replace them?

 

[Hevari]

As for me - now the advanced medical research needed about how the quads impact on pre-teen and teen skaters' healts. And then, based on the results of that research, ISU will have to decide about regulations' changes... Because without proper advanced medical research we can only guess about health impact.

 

[Elucidus]

Should the rules focus on jump content primarily or reward enough variety of other skills well enough that the skills 20-year-olds tend to do better than 15-year-olds are equally important?

And what skills 20 years old ladies tends to do better than 15 y.o.? Jumps? No. Spins? Definitely no. Step sequences? They can be on par at best. What else? I would say some basic gliding maybe - and that's it. Each and every fs element which have BV TES score - younger ladies tends to do better. If we are not speaking about reputational GOEs here, of course.

Or should there be separate competitions that favor girls at their jumping peak or women at their skating skill and performance peak?

Again, who said that performance and skating skill peak should be later than jumping peak? For me (and many others) Lipnickaya's Schindler List or Valieva's last SP - are all time fs masterpieces - on par with Yuna Kim's performances. It's all very subjective.

If separate, should they be divided by age (i.e., higher senior age minimums) or by different rules for point-earning opportunities? Or should the senior event always be dominated by first- and second-year seniors who then burn out as their bodies finish maturing and even younger jumpers come along to replace them?

I would say you and many others like you have one common fault - you are too hasty with conclusions during this transitional period to ladies quads era. We can't say for sure yet - whether they burn out or not, whether they keep quads or not etc. We should wait and see couple of years at least - before doing any conclusions or taking any drastic measures. There are examples of successful senior mature ladies with high TES content contradicting your claim after all (Tursynbaeva, Tuktamysheva, Osmond, Tennell). Also, if you analyze many senior ladies careers deep enough - you will see that the main cause of their problems is not an age. Basically it's lack of training time due to financial or system reasons, health issues or general laziness/unwillingness to dedicate as much time to fs as their rivals. In a proper environment with good coaches, health and unlimited time/finances - any senior lady would be much more successful than they are. Problem is - most of them can't have even that.
On other hand - even if what you claimed will be proved to be true with time. So what? I don't see it as something bad at all. Basketball players are tall, sumo wrestlers are heavy, figure skaters are light and tiny.. rain is pouring, sun is shining.. that's just a life :confused2:

 

[Mathman]

On other hand - even if what you claimed will be proved to be true with time. So what? I don't see it as something bad at all. Basketball players are tall, sumo wrestlers are heavy, figure skaters are light and tiny.. rain is pouring, sun is shining.. that's just a life :confused2:

True, true.

Still, to me it is a depressing thought if we have to reconcile ourselves to the idea that, going forward, skating is just a child's game after all.

 

[Hevari]

True, true.

Still, to me it is a depressing thought if we have to reconcile ourselves to the idea that, going forward, skating is just a child's game after all.

We still have men singles, pairs and dancing after all. So even being not fans of ladies quad jumping on ice contests - we still have what to watch

But the only question repains - will ladies quads have impact on pairs and dancing or no? I mean - now ladies often switch to pairs somewhere in their teen age after being unable to master jumps required for being competitive in singles. And if the quad-hysteria will grow - after trying to master quad(s) will ladies' health allow them to switch to pairs or dancing? Whill the quad-hysteria impact the now-strong juvenile, intermediate and novice pair divisions in US and Canada and not-so strong in EU?

 

[thedude]

Testosterone level is not a factor in figure skating. Women actually are better jumpers, they develop earlier than boys. Physically and athletically. Biological fact. Quad ladies already at techical level or higher than ~75% of the current Men's field. And that is just a first generation of quad ladies. I expect men to advance slightly more in next few years as few new strong juniors will enter the seniors relatively soon, but sooner or later ladies will catch up. Will see how fast.

No. Testosterone is a factor in any athletic competition. There's a reason it's tested and banned from sporting competitions. Girls hit puberty earlier then boys, but that doesn't mean they develop athletically earlier than boys. Puberty is what causes many women skaters to struggle because of height and weight gains and higher body fat ratios. Show me a sporting competition where girls are better than boys at the same age and where they compete against each other. There's research that shows that under 12yrs girls are very athletically similar to boys of the same age. But performance changes quite dramatically after that.

What you're saying makes no sense. How can women be better jumpers when men's quads have been around for quite a some time, but women's is a new phenomenon.