Worlds: Ladies FS

[TA91]

I thought it was great Kat Witt congratulated Alina publicly on winning world's. Very classy. We need more of that. I love it when greatness appreciates greatness. And having won all major gold's as a senior at the tender age of 16 makes Alina one of the GOATS. Katarina has already been one for 30 years.

While it seems Alina has helped introduce a new era of ladies figure skating and is also a great technician and good skater, I think it's a stretch to say she is a goat. She hasn't been in the field long enough for that and if she qualifies then so does Tara. But if she can stay two more seasons on the top than sure.

 

[Scott512]

Not true, what makes you think this?



Erm, that is exactly on the judges. Their scores shouldn't be influenced by the group someone skates in. Based on their own scores, Rika would have been in the last group anyway if Mariah's 3Toe had been called underrotated, which shows how nonsensical the judging can be.



The only other relevant competitor with a Lutz edge issue is Sakamoto. She should have been called, but that's irrelevant to the discussion we were having. Evgenia being the only competitor to receive an UR and edge call wouldn't mean a panel was strict only with her. She just has flaws that most others do not; I highly disagree about the rest of the ladies getting away with a lot. As far as underrotation calls that weren't given, only Miyahara and Bell had things that weren't called to me. If you do want to get super strict, then actually Evgenia's 3Sal+3Loop should have been called under (it was less around than Zagitova's if you watch closely in slo-mo). A stricter tech panel is only going to hurt Evgenia more.



Again, you are not looking at the whole season or even half the season, while claiming someone had a better season simply because of their World's performance. Kihira skated better than Zagitova at all 3 Grand Prix events, Nationals, and 4CC (as compared to Euros for Zagitova). Zagitova had full meltdowns at those last two competitions.



Congrats to Zagi, but that doesn't mean the scores are correct. In any case, Kihira would have beaten Zagitova based on the judges' own scores, if she had delivered. Zagitova is far from untouchable and her scores will plummet when the Russian fed no longer views her as a top pony, or when the judges start realizing her skating skills aren't amazing and constantly flailing transitions are not great choreography/interpretation.

If if if. Rika did not deliver Alina did. Thats sports.

I guess I should be glad you are an isu judge.

 

[Scott512]

While it seems Alina has helped introduce a new era of ladies figure skating and is also a great technician and good skater, I think it's a stretch to say she is a goat. She hasn't been in the field long enough for that and if she qualifies then so does Tara. But if she can stay two more seasons on the top than sure.

Im going on winning all the major events as junior and senior by age 16. Remarkable. Yes she needs to be elite longer. But her first 2 years were historic.

 

[Scott512]

It is a shame that Hamada is not the strategist that Eteri is.
i am sure that with a more strategic approach, Rika would have won this (like having a layout with a 2A in the short)
And more important I dont get why her team played safe at 4CC and at the Challenger (in particular with the short program) when there were the moments when she could have tried the more difficult layouts, in order to get used to them.
However, I think that the judges wanted to give this to Alina, they were very kind with her, overlooking the underrotations in the free program, for example.

Alina deserved this gold and Rika deserved what she got. 4th place. The judges were good to all except Sofia. At this point Alina is better than Rika and everyone else! And Im glad you think Alinas coach is better too. She is.

 

[rikaquegira]

Ok, here are my thoughts about this hellish Ladies Free Skate.

Let's start with one simple fact:
had that useless TP called Mariah's 3T, which was clearly UR, even in real time, Rika would've been in the last group. Would've that made any difference in the end? I don't know but we can't ignore that that was unfair to the other competitors.
Another "fun fact":
there was not one single edge call in the whole Free Skate event. There was actually only one edge call in the Ladies event as a whole, a girl from NED who finished last in the SP got an "e" on her Lutz. I'll give you a minute to reflect about that.

Now, before you think I'm being bitter and hateful, here's exhibit one of the TP's incompetence:
https://youtu.be/pNpWYRHL7XQ?t=54
They called Sofia's 3Lz as a 3F and then when she did her actual 3F later in the program they noticed their mistake and in the end, on her protocol, she got +1.35 GOE for her Lutz!. They did not call her Lutz even after mistaking it for a Flip!!! :reye: I mean... what even...???
In reality, the only lady in the top 10 with a clear outside edge on the Lutz was Rika Kihira. The rest were either suspicious or downright an e. Both Kaori and Medvedeva are "famous" for the Flutzes and none were called. Bradie, Mariah, Eunsoo, Alina, Satoko, Elizabet, all of them have at least a flat edge on the Lutz. And don't waste your time arguing with me on this.

So, since the margin between Medvedeva and Rika was so slim, had the TP called Medvedeva's Lutz and had the judges not inflated her PCS, Rika would obviously be on the podium and not by less than a point. I don't mean to hate on Evgenia, she had an amazing skate, it was a big victory for her and I admire her strength so much. I'm sure she'll come back even stronger next season. What I'm discussing here is the scores that don't reflect what was presented on the ice.

Honestly the only thing right in this event was Kaori finally getting higher PCS including the highest mark for SS. She's one of the very, very few skaters who deserves 9s for SS. In this particular event, I think only three skaters deserved to score 9 or above in SS, same for IN. The rest are the rest.

I won't even talk about the SP scores and all of the nonsense GOEs on both events, otherwise I'll be here forever.

Anyway, I hate to be that person but, Rika wuzrobbed. Don't say "oh, she didn't medal because she fell and popped, the others skated clean" because, no. She wasn't on the podium because the TP was absolutely criminal in this event and the judges, as always, will hold some up and lowball others. :confused2:

But what was I expecting? :disapp:

 

[rikaquegira]

It is a shame that Hamada is not the strategist that Eteri is.
i am sure that with a more strategic approach, Rika would have won this (like having a layout with a 2A in the short)
And more important I dont get why her team played safe at 4CC and at the Challenger (in particular with the short program) when there were the moments when she could have tried the more difficult layouts, in order to get used to them.
However, I think that the judges wanted to give this to Alina, they were very kind with her, overlooking the underrotations in the free program, for example.

Hamada and Rika are focused on Beijing. Rika needs the 3A in the SP because there will most probably be other skaters with one or more quad in the FS by 2022 and even probably next season if Trusova and Anna bring their A game to Senior level. And she didn't plan to play it safe in 4CC or Challenger. She did what needed to do. And also, she had the finger injury, remember? So she wasn't 100%.
Here, in order to win, she knew she would have to go for all three 3As, which is what she did. Unfortunately it didn't work out but she did what she had to do.
She has announced just a few hours ago that next season she will have a 4S in the first half of her FS and one 3A in the second half.
Their plan is to up Rika's layout season by season so she can be top level in Beijing. This was her first Worlds and it was a great experience for her, she will take it all in and make the most of it, as she has done this entire season.
I hope we can see Rika in WTT + team TCC (Yuzuru, Evgenia, Jason), that would be amazing!

 

[Blades of Passion]

If if if. Rika did not deliver Alina did. Thats sports.

Of course, but were talking about the two skaters at their best and also the overall qualities and how they should be scored.

Anyway, I'm sure next season is going to be even worse, with the Eteri quad juniors suddenly getting sky high PCS with even worse programs than Zagitova's this year.

 

[alvina9894]

Ok, here are my thoughts about this hellish Ladies Free Skate.

Let's start with one simple fact:
had that useless TP called Mariah's 3T, which was clearly UR, even in real time, Rika would've been in the last group. Would've that made any difference in the end? I don't know but we can't ignore that that was unfair to the other competitors.
Another "fun fact":
there was not one single edge call in the whole Free Skate event. There was actually only one edge call in the Ladies event as a whole, a girl from NED who finished last in the SP got an "e" on her Lutz. I'll give you a minute to reflect about that.

Now, before you think I'm being bitter and hateful, here's exhibit one of the TP's incompetence:
https://youtu.be/pNpWYRHL7XQ?t=54
They called Sofia's 3Lz as a 3F and then when she did her actual 3F later in the program they noticed their mistake and in the end, on her protocol, she got +1.35 GOE for her Lutz!. They did not call her Lutz even after mistaking it for a Flip!!! :reye: I mean... what even...???
In reality, the only lady in the top 10 with a clear outside edge on the Lutz was Rika Kihira. The rest were either suspicious or downright an e. Both Kaori and Medvedeva are "famous" for the Flutzes and none were called. Bradie, Mariah, Eunsoo, Alina, Satoko, Elizabet, all of them have at least a flat edge on the Lutz. And don't waste your time arguing with me on this.

So, since the margin between Medvedeva and Rika was so slim, had the TP called Medvedeva's Lutz and had the judges not inflated her PCS, Rika would obviously be on the podium and not by less than a point. I don't mean to hate on Evgenia, she had an amazing skate, it was a big victory for her and I admire her strength so much. I'm sure she'll come back even stronger next season. What I'm discussing here is the scores that don't reflect what was presented on the ice.

Honestly the only thing right in this event was Kaori finally getting higher PCS including the highest mark for SS. She's one of the very, very few skaters who deserves 9s for SS. In this particular event, I think only three skaters deserved to score 9 or above in SS, same for IN. The rest are the rest.

I won't even talk about the SP scores and all of the nonsense GOEs on both events, otherwise I'll be here forever.

Anyway, I hate to be that person but, Rika wuzrobbed. Don't say "oh, she didn't medal because she fell and popped, the others skated clean" because, no. She wasn't on the podium because the TP was absolutely criminal in this event and the juges, as always, will hold some up and lowball others. :confused2:

But what was I expecting? :disapp:

Precisely.

If the tech panel is somewhat doing their job (i.e. calling glaringly obvious URs and outright wrong edges) Rika would have been on the podium.
Here is an estimation of what the TES should look like with BV reduction and GOE=0 (or -5 in case of fall)
SP:
Mariah Bell 3Lz3T< https://youtu.be/KoKrcrDbPyg?t=253 would lose 2 points putting her into 10th place.
FS:
Rika Kihira 3A< https://youtu.be/GxwDjvFHi8k?t=373 would lose 1.5 point
Evgenia Medvedeva 3Lze https://youtu.be/Az05hFUqTiY?t=69 3S3Lo< https://youtu.be/Az05hFUqTiY?t=359 would lose 3.5 points on the lutz and 3 points on the 3S3Lo (6.5 points in total)
Kaori Sakamoto 3Lze https://youtu.be/zClEPP7Ei88?t=106 would lose 3 points.
Satoko Miyahara 3Lz3T<, 3Lz<, 3F<+2T<+2Lo< I'm not going to do the TES calculation
Bradie Tennell 3Lz3T< https://youtu.be/gKyL2eeX974?t=397 would lose 3 points.

I'm not even going into flat edges and not-so-obviouus URs.

 

[skatenewbie]

Precisely.

If the tech panel is somewhat doing their job (i.e. calling glaringly obvious URs and outright wrong edges) Rika would have been on the podium.
Here is an estimation of what the TES should look like with BV reduction and GOE=0 (or -5 in case of fall)
SP:
Mariah Bell 3Lz3T< https://youtu.be/KoKrcrDbPyg?t=253 would lose 2 points putting her into 10th place.
FS:
Rika Kihira 3A< https://youtu.be/GxwDjvFHi8k?t=373 would lose 1.5 point
Evgenia Medvedeva 3Lze https://youtu.be/Az05hFUqTiY?t=69 3S3Lo< https://youtu.be/Az05hFUqTiY?t=359 would lose 3.5 points on the lutz and 3 points on the 3S3Lo (6.5 points in total)
Kaori Sakamoto 3Lze https://youtu.be/zClEPP7Ei88?t=106 would lose 3 points.
Satoko Miyahara 3Lz3T<, 3Lz<, 3F<+2T<+2Lo< I'm not going to do the TES calculation
Bradie Tennell 3Lz3T< https://youtu.be/gKyL2eeX974?t=397 would lose 3 points.

I'm not even going into flat edges and not-so-obviouus URs.

some of these arent really UR though, or maybe im just too lenient. Zagitova also had bunch of uncalled URs. Elizabet 4S also quite tight. With different/stricter TP probably the podium is Alina/Elizabet/Rika/Kaori in no particular order.

 

[zanadude]

So what we ended up with was the person that left Eteri for Orser lost to the person that never left Eteri, and the person that left Orser for Eteri.

And of course, all the people that did worse have never been with Eteri.

 

[madison]

Alina deserved this gold and Rika deserved what she got. 4th place. The judges were good to all except Sofia. At this point Alina is better than Rika and everyone else! And Im glad you think Alinas coach is better too. She is.

Alina had some underrotations which were not called.
Maybe Alina was better at this competition, I would say Eteri played smart as usual in contrast to Hamada.
Eteri is the best coach when it comes to strategies, maximising the points, and making each of her skater to stand out in a way or another (for example, Elizabet became interesting once she got the quad). Only once Eteri was defeated by her own strategy: at the Olympics when in fact she wanted Evgenia to win.

 

[j00mla]

So what we ended up with was the person that left Eteri for Orser lost to the person that never left Eteri, and the person that left Orser for Eteri.

And of course, all the people that did worse have never been with Eteri.

in Ladies it was like "Sambo-70 Open" competition, quest stars were good but not enough, and Japanese ladies are the best among non-Sambo-70 girls. (of course it's half truth and half joke/speculation but it's interesting)

 

[yume]

Another "fun fact":
there was not one single edge call in the whole Free Skate event. There was actually only one edge call in the Ladies event as a whole, a girl from NED who finished last in the SP got an "e" on her Lutz. I'll give you a minute to reflect about that.:

Does Gusmeroli wears glasses? Maybe it's time to change them. I saw lenient tech panels but that level of leniency is unprecedented.

 

[silveruskate]

I like Rika and think her PCS should be higher. Both her programs are beautiful, and just because you don't have as many transitions as another skater doesn't mean all your scores should be down.

I don't think she's a jumping Goddess or should be mentioned in the same breath as Tuktik or Kostner. Looking at the FS, Rika UR on the 2nd 3A where she fell, and surprisingly also UR on the 2T of her 3Lz-2T-2Lo. Not to mention, her 3A-3T, the 3T was within the allowed amount of UR but it was the full 1/4 UR upto the absolute limit, same for the first 3Lz as well, just a wafer thin away from being marked UR. Frankly even in her SP, the 3T was the full 1/4 UR in her 3F-3T. Rika's 3A is magnificent, but that extra element doesn't discount the fact that except the clear outside-edge Lutz she's the same as the rest of the field. Decent height on her jumps, and a lot of pre-rotation.

 

[VenusHalley]

So what we ended up with was the person that left Eteri for Orser lost to the person that never left Eteri, and the person that left Orser for Eteri.

And of course, all the people that did worse have never been with Eteri.

After reading about Evgenia's eating habits then and now... I think Evgenia won a big time here. Gold medals will not keep you healthy and Evgenia was very close to developing full fledged eating disorder. Being scared of gaining 100 grams? Eating one chocolate bar a day? I don't think she would not be able to do another season under Eteri with the way things were going...

 

[Fluture]

After reading about Evgenia's eating habits then and now... I think Evgenia won a big time here. Gold medals will not keep you healthy and Evgenia was very close to developing full fledged eating disorder. Being scared of gaining 100 grams? Eating one chocolate bar a day? I don't think she would be able to do another season under Eteri with the way things were going...

Exactly. People always say Zhenya would have been much better with Eteri, would have kept her Olympic shape but don‘t realise that her Olympic shape basically meant being underweighted by about what... 5 kilos and afraid to eat? This worked for last season because Zhenya probably would have done everything for her Olympic dream. But afterwards? Well, she saw that starving didn‘t get her the gold medal either and she made a change. You can‘t go on with eating habits like this forever, you‘ll either injure yourself to the point of no return to competitive skating (Zhenya was already pretty close with her stress fracture and back injury) or face serious mental health challenges. What Zhenya did may not have brought her a season full of gold medals but honestly, it‘s not likely she would have swept the field anyway, she didn‘t even last year. Given what we‘ve heard from her interview and what she had to overcome, it‘s just admirable she made that podium in the first place. But of course some don‘t see this. Before Worlds, they were all doom and gloom that Zhenya would cost Russia the third spot and now that she‘s on the podium they have nothing else than to go back to the old ”Eteri vs. Brian“ discussion, comparing Zhenya and Elizabet as if their situations were even comparable. They‘re different skaters and people and they found the coach that is best for them and they are happy. I don‘t know why we always have to try and prove superiority of one of the two, if we could just... you know... be happy for the three ladies on the podium and that each of them managed to fight and overcome themselves.

 

[plushyfan]

Zagitova has good weight. She is not thin, she is muscular enough, she looks like a pretty woman.

 

[Scott512]

Alina had some underrotations which were not called.
Maybe Alina was better at this competition, I would say Eteri played smart as usual in contrast to Hamada.
Eteri is the best coach when it comes to strategies, maximising the points, and making each of her skater to stand out in a way or another (for example, Elizabet became interesting once she got the quad). Only once Eteri was defeated by her own strategy: at the Olympics when in fact she wanted Evgenia to win.

Yes Eteri was defeated by her own strategy at the Olympics when she wanted Zhenya to win. That was a sore spot for me. The rise of Lilbet this season was astonishing. Coaching matters.

So if they called 2 URs on Alina she wins by what 9 points?

Rika has risk and reward programs. If she pops 3a and falls she may not medal. If she goes clean which is hard to do she wins.

 

[Fluture]

Zagitova has good weight. She is not thin, she is muscular enough, she looks like a pretty woman.

If this was because of my comment, I did not talk about Alina. Zhenya made an open and honest interview where she talked about her issues with weight and the problems she experienced before and after the Olympics related to this topic. She has said this outright, it‘s not speculation on my part. I‘m not going to say anything about Alina because we don‘t know anything about her eating habits and she has not talked about them. But with Zhenya it‘s a fact that she lived with eating habits that were very close to disordered, if not disordered already. And she overcame this and seems to be on the right path. And yes, this was also due to help of her new coaching team as it was Brian who found her the nutritionist she’s now working with. She is now in an environment that is healthier for her. That‘s all I‘m saying.

 

[Scott512]

Of course, but were talking about the two skaters at their best and also the overall qualities and how they should be scored.

Anyway, I'm sure next season is going to be even worse, with the Eteri quad juniors suddenly getting sky high PCS with even worse programs than Zagitova's this year.

Rika could not repeat GPF and Alina was better at worlds than GPF. Thereinlies the difference at worlds.

Alina may not be able to hold off 3a Rika and who knows who else. We will find out next season. But if Alina can skate clean like at worlds and others with quads or 3A pop or fall she can still win.

Eteri angels may get good pcs scores next season. We shall see.