2015 Europeans Men's Short Program Jan 28

[Violet Bliss]

So just out of curiosity, Kovtun got 98 in SP in Russia Nationals, was it so much better than this? Didn´t see any videos...

He made mistakes and the continental inflation is no match for the national inflation.

 

[Interspectator]

Nice, thanks! Some videos are already up from folks (okay quality), so I won't be in any hurry to put up mine.

But here's my much better version of Brezina's SP:

2015 European Championships - Michal Brezina SP B.ESP2 (1080p HD)

Thank you! He's got one of my favorite SP's this year.

 

[Frenchie]

Nice, thanks! Some videos are already up from folks (okay quality), so I won't be in any hurry to put up mine.

But here's my much better version of Brezina's SP:

2015 European Championships - Michal Brezina SP B.ESP2 (1080p HD)

cool, thanks so much!!! Great quality!
(I just watched all of this via a rather "foggy" and blurry B Esp stream!
I just had a look, and have to point the finger to another vid of yours, just as comparison to what we've seen today...
now THAT was magical!! (Joshua Farris SP, US Natls)

 

[HanDomi]

Well, that wasn't the best SP event ever


Javi will win propably, but I expect few mistakes from him in FP unfortunately looking what season looked so far for him

 

[cruzceleste]

National inflation, of course, but basically he was clean, if I remember well. Here is the program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mC7xnj3hvk

Leaving aside the inflation at nationals, this one was bad even for him.

Thank you both, will look the video.

Edit.
And skatefiguring

Edit 2.

As said in GPF maybe Kovtun´s videos doens´t make him justice? He looks slow and heavy (as like it´s takes a lot of energy to move accross the ice, not like he is fat) on the video, but people in GPF said that Kovtun was faster live.

 

[Lipea]

8 points are completely fair. Javi's BV only was 43.25 while Voronov had 36.64. Add to that the components: SS, Choreo, Transitions (I'll leave IN and PE out) and the 8 points are there.

But the performances should have had more difference in GOE. Sergey's 4T+3T should have got more GOE while Javier's combination more negative GOE than -1.10. If the fall normally causes the components to go down, why stepping out would not then? The difference between clean performance and a messy one should reflect on components. In addition, Brezina fell but his components are still higher than Sergey's, and I don't understand why? All I think is that EC wants to support two non-Russian European skaters who pretend on the podium, because there are too many Russians on the top of other FS categories.
Certainly, the only way Sergey could lose so much points to Javi is if the latest one skated a clean program. But he did not.

 

[alebi]

But the performances should have had more difference in GOE. Sergey's 4T+3T should have got more GOE while Javier's combination more negative GOE than -1.10. If the fall normally causes the components to go down, why stepping out would not then? The difference between clean performance and a messy one should reflect on components. In addition, Brezina fell but his components are still higher than Sergey's, and I don't understand why? All I think is that EC wants to support two non-Russian European skaters who pretend on the podium, because there are too many Russians on the top of other FS categories.
Certainly, the only way Sergey could lose so much points to Javi is if the latest one skated a clean program. But he did not.

there are differences as big as a house in the way Fernandez and Voronov approach their jumps

Voronov and Brezina are comparable to me... maybe their PCS could be closer (more in the range of Voronov than Brezina's today)

 

[Interspectator]

there are differences as big as a house in the way Fernandez and Voronov approach their jumps

Also, speed, Ch and IN I'd also give to Fernandez.

 

[Frenchie]

But the performances should have had more difference in GOE. Sergey's 4T+3T should have got more GOE while Javier's combination more negative GOE than -1.10. If the fall normally causes the components to go down, why stepping out would not then? The difference between clean performance and a messy one should reflect on components. In addition, Brezina fell but his components are still higher than Sergey's, and I don't understand why? All I think is that EC wants to support two non-Russian European skaters who pretend on the podium, because there are too many Russians on the top of other FS categories.
Certainly, the only way Sergey could lose so much points to Javi is if the latest one skated a clean program. But he did not.

Voronov's jumps are impressive, and I like the guy - great attitude, humble hard worker. But Brezina imo has a crispness during the entire program that Voronov doesn't have. Brezina was great with 1 nasty moment, where Voronov was consistently good. I'd give today's SP of Brezina higher PCS than Voronov's (and Kovtun's, OF COURSE!) any day.

 

[makaihime]

Quickly dropping by to check the standings after SP and I like what I see

 

[Lipea]

Also, speed, Ch and IN I'd also give to Fernandez.

Ok, but why there is still 0.43 difference for Javi in P? Would not a clean program vs not clean affect P the most?

 

[Alba]

But the performances should have had more difference in GOE. Sergey's 4T+3T should have got more GOE while Javier's combination more negative GOE than -1.10. If the fall normally causes the components to go down, why stepping out would not then? The difference between clean performance and a messy one should reflect on components.

He indeed got negative GoE's and the difference between a clean performance and a messy one is there. But you are comparing him with Voronov, and the reasons why he has 8 points lead are there and it is fair. The step out did cost him, but it's not the same as a fall. Sergei missed the A, which really did cost him, otherwise the difference would've been 2-3 points maybe, at max. The only positive GoE's that Javi did not deserve are the ones for the StSq. His execution was not that good here and he also did stumble, yet he got two +3 six +2 GoE and only one judge +1. I think only one judge fot it right.

In addition, Brezina fell but his components are still higher than Sergey's, and I don't understand why?

I agree with you there but the difference is not even one point higher though. So not a big deal.

 

[Lipea]

He indeed got negative GoE's and the difference between a clean performance and a messy one is there. But you are comparing him with Voronov, and the reasons why he has 8 points lead are there and it is fair. The step out did cost him, but it's not the same as a fall. Sergei did miss the A, which really did cost him, otherwise the difference would've been 2-3 points maybe, at maz. The only positive GoE's that Javi did not deserve are the ones for the StSq. His execution was not that good here and he also did stumble, yet he got two +3 six +2 GoE and only one judge +1. I think only one judge fot it right.



I agree with you there but the difference is not even one point higher though. So not a big deal.

Still, according to protocols and as you are saying, even if Sergey did a clean triple axel instead of double he would have 2-3 points less than Javi's two pretty bad step-outs? yes, Sergey does not have the same entertaining charisma and speed, but still, he is as experienced skater as Javier, there should not be a difference in judging them.

 

[invisiblespiral]

I like the Menshov voodoo doll theory.

 

[Alba]

Still, according to protocols and as you are saying, even if Sergey did a clean triple axel instead of double he would have 2-3 points less than Javi's two pretty bad step-outs? yes, Sergey does not have the same entertaining charisma and speed, but still, he is as experienced skater as Javier, there should not be a difference in judging them.

Sergei does have a lot of charisma actually, but he doesn't have the skating skills, transitions, choreo and interpretation that Javi has. So yes, even with a step out Javi deserves to be ahead of him. I'm saying this as a Voronov fan.
Not that I like his skating so much, but I like him and he has big jumps.

 

[Ava Moore]

I like the Menshov voodoo doll theory.

You think he roped in Maria and Alena on this? One doll each? Seems like it wasn't just Kovtun who got cursed. :scratch:

 

[cruzceleste]

I like the Menshov voodoo doll theory.

tell me more please...

 

[invisiblespiral]

....um, someone somewhere in the thread brought up Menshov and voodoo dolls, and I liked it as a theory.... and how is Alena involved? (He's dating Maria, right?) I also think someone said something similar in 2012 about either worlds or WTT....

 

[Caustica]

Still, according to protocols and as you are saying, even if Sergey did a clean triple axel instead of double he would have 2-3 points less than Javi's two pretty bad step-outs? yes, Sergey does not have the same entertaining charisma and speed, but still, he is as experienced skater as Javier, there should not be a difference in judging them.

Well, if Sergei had done 3A he would have 5 points more BV but his BV would still be ~2 points lower than Javi's, because Javi had higher levels on his StSq, did 4S instead of 4T, did 3Lz instead of 3Lo... little things. These things are differences that should be reflected in scores, assuming all else is equal. (Yes, Sergei does 3A in second half, which would make a slight difference - 0.85). Javi's programme has better choreography and transitions and these things should be reflected in PCS regardless of step-outs (and his stepouts didn't cause him to miss choreography/transitions). And Sergei's SS leaves much to desire.

If Sergei had done 3A I think their scores would have been very close. Either could conceivably have come out on top. (Stepouts are really hardly penalised by this judging system.)

Tbh, I feel like this whole conversation has already been had wrt Sergei's low score in GPF SP compared to Hanyu's who had a fall lol.

 

[Ava Moore]

....um, someone somewhere in the thread brought up Menshov and voodoo dolls, and I liked it as a theory.... and how is Alena involved? (He's dating Maria, right?) I also think someone said something similar in 2012 about either worlds or WTT....

I've lurked and saw that Kovtun's bad Worlds outing in 2013 was attributed to this Menshov voodoo doll?

Team Rukavicin (Kostya, Maria, Alena) were all alternates and stayed home, that's why. Lots of playtime for them.