2017 Four Continents Men FS

[4everchan]

I guess I am a sour hater but I have an issue with Nathan's SS and TR mark. He does almost nothing except crossovers between his elements in his FS and those crossovers are far of being the best in the business. Some skaters need only one or two kicks to get the ice coverage he gets with like five crossovers. Or so it seems from the screen at least. However, I do think he has charisma, he can perform decently, he is fairly musical and he has a good posture. So I don't think he is hopeless, he can obviously develop into an artistic skater but this kind of scoring does not seem to encourage him (or anyone) to improve much anything other than a vast set of consistent quads.

I don't disagree with the result and I do think since obviously it's easier to perform and do loads of difficult transitions in a technically easier program, there should be some kind of PCS boost for skaters who have difficult technical content vs. skaters with easier content. I just don't think the balance is very good right now. And if it was so easy to skate like Patrick Chan, wouldn't more people be doing it?

yuzu himself said that he can do it for about 1 minute or so but it's so demanding that he wouldn't be able to to do it for an entire program...as Patrick goes deep into the ice and it is very demanding physically etc etc etc.. i wish i could find the link to an interview... maybe someone else remembers where that is from.

 

[daphenaxa]

We are not talking about the same federation. Chinese and Japanese federations these days have a bit more clout IMO than U.S. fed because even though U.S. has a longer figure skating tradition and is a larger country than Japan, the balance of power in figure skating today is definitely more in Asia. The audiences are huge in Asian countries, and therefore the revenue is larger for figure skating in countries outside of the U.S. Canada has always had a strong federation and has been more savvy at the business of politicking than the U.S.

U.S. fed has always had difficulty with navigating the political side of the sport. The U.S. system is very different from other countries. The government is not really involved in athletes' lives in the U.S. in the way that governments are closely involved with sport in Russia, China, and Japan.

Mariah Bell is an overall more polished and powerful skater than Zijun. As I already said, Zijun has wonderful lyrical qualities but she lacks speed, power, and polished packaging. Zijun could also benefit from working on her skating skills. Also, I did not say that U.S. skaters receive no federation support. Of course they receive funding, encouragement and support in a number of ways. But in the U.S. it's the skaters for the most part who must make their own career decisions and lift themselves up by their own bootstraps. Since U.S. fed is not very savvy about politicking for skaters, it's important for skaters to be confident and to rely on and believe in their talent.

You are delusional about American pull. Thinking that USA fed has problems politiking internationally compared to Japan or China is laughable.
ISU survives on the Japanese yen but wants American champions because American market is more important than fair scoring and North american skaters are allegedelly more marketable globally. Bye

 

[apple123]

Yes, they are. (He didn't get Chan's PCS, btw) It's not empty. He's just that good. And the judges, they know the real deal when they see it.

I think it's obvious to most people that Shoma's skating skills and performance are not on bar with Patrick Chan. Not to you, I guess. And isn't there a comparison video showing how empty Shoma's program against Hanyu's and Chan's? So facts don't lie. He's not THAT good.

 

[HanDomi]

Hanyu is getting stronger step by step. Maybe they got his peaking time right this time for Worlds. Just needs to do something about that 4s3t

 

[MaiKatze]

I think it's obvious to most people that Shoma's skating skills and performance are not on bar with Patrick Chan. Not to you, I guess. And isn't there a comparison video showing how empty Shoma's program against Hanyu's and Chan's? So facts don't lie. He's not THAT good.

You know better than the judges then. I for one, am glad the times are over that Patrick Chan wins competitions simply because he is a better skater than the others. Actually I feel sorry for him, because I think he is great but just doesn't have the tech. What facts? The alternative kind?

 

[Jaana]

WOW, it is great for USA to finally have a skater who is not more than 60-40 points behind the podium skaters and now Chen´s first win in 4CC..., well-deserved. The judges got the podium in right order and I also thought that Jin, Uno and Chen all have improved a lot in interpretation. Hanyu was wonderful like always (such a pity about his sp)!

Sorry for Chan´s jumping, but I´m still very much looking forward to see his skating live in Helsinki, to watch him floating on the ice...

In my opinion Ge was killed with his PCS, actually for similar performances and content his PCS should have been higher and Brown´s a lot lower.

 

[TerpsichoreFS]

Are both Nathan and Shoma ' s 4F technically correct? They're so different...

Congrats to the medalists. Placements seem right to me

 

[xeyra]

Is Han Yan training a 4Axel? Because whatever happened to his 3Axel? It used to be so good from all the past videos I've seen, up there with the best ever, and he can't land one consistently anymore. It's so heartbreaking to watch.

 

[treeloving]

All I can say is Yuzuru deserve brain and gut award. His brain is super mechanical here.

 

[DiamondDust]

All I can say is Yuzuru deserve brain and gut award. His brain is super mechanical here.

 

[da96103]

Translating bit of Yuzu's comments after 4CC https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2017/02/19/0009929194.shtml
'The most fun silver medal ever'
I was able to skate this program as a challenger. I placed importance on landing 4 quads and the combos in the second half. I'm regretful about the 4S since it was the same kind of mistake as the SP. I will train more on this.
I decided to put another 4T in after I landed the 3A3T. I had originally hoped to put a half loop on the sal and do a 4S off of it ( his doubled Salchow) but when I landed it was too difficult. So I quickly stopped that and concentrated on the first 4T. I had practiced putting a 4S into the place where the 3A-3T was if the 4S combo did not go well. But I thought it better to do a beautiful 3A3T after that, there was energy left, so I tried the 4T and was able to land it. I had not simulated this scenario before, so I was calculating the combinations as I went.

About being second:
Honestly, I wanted to win. Since I've turned senior I've only been able to get silver here and this is my third. But I think I am growing every year, and each year what is needed to be done is more difficult, in the midst of that, the feeling of being able to challenge ones own limits is one that I love. So this time, I think it's been the most fun silver medal.

About Nathan Chen:
Honestly, I felt envy towards him being on the top podium. I really wanted to win. But at the same time, he did 5 quads, he did 2 triple axels. There were some small misses but I really respect him for doing the program with no falls so I feel able to honestly congratulate him.
He will brush up (his skills) even more, I think, so I will need to do the same. As it was with the Sochi olympics, nothing is certain. I may try the lutz or the flip, or even maybe the axel. So I'm really looking forward to skating from now. And Looking forward to training too.

So that X-1Lo-4S is plan B.

I think Shoma's 3A+4T is also plan B if he pops any of the 4T's.

 

[gravy]

A live look at Phil Hersh

Omg, hahahaha.

I knew it was past his bedtime due to especially cranky Tweets such as:

Has all the skating been this godawful?

^ Re: Han Yan's meltdown.

What he did was a decomposing mess

^ Re: Patrick Chan.

I love Phil.

 

[yuki]

Then you haven't read any of my posts about Nathan. He is giving the sport what it's asking for the men to do re quads, and then some. He's got great technique learned from his coach, Rafael. Plus, he's a fierce competitor who can rise to the occasion. And Nathan has wonderful musicality, along with ballet training in his background. He has wonderful presence on the ice, and he has some good aesthetic qualities, which are on greater display in his exhibitions. The amazing thing is that Nathan has all of this at the age of 17, so he is as or even more precocious as Hanyu and Patrick were when they first came onto the senior scene.

So why is he getting those PCS in competition, then?

 

[Jammers]

Just got up and watched Nathan's LP. It was obvious he was nervous especially on some of those landings but if this is how he skates when he's nervous there's no worries about him he showed guts skating after Hanyu out up that huge number.

 

[xeyra]

My two cents on Nathan's PCS: my major problem with them isn't actually his SS score (though sure, if he gets the same SS as Patrick Chan from some judges, it loses all credibility) but that some judges gave him 9+ in composition. Because I continue to think the greatest detriment to his program is the front-loading. He has only one choreo sequence in between 8 jumping passes. It's the same reason why I can't quite care for Alina Zagitova's composition in her programs, with the opposite backloading. It's just not balanced enough for my aesthetics. But I guess that's why they're my aesthetics, I guess.

 

[apple123]

You know better than the judges then. I for one, am glad the times are over that Patrick Chan wins competitions simply because he is a better skater than the others. Actually I feel sorry for him, because I think he is great but just doesn't have the tech. What facts? The alternative kind?

Since when the judges are the truth? And I'd take Chan over Shoma any day. At least he has the skating skills to back it up, not like Mr Uno, with cheated jumps and crossovers to get inflation at both TES and PCS. What a joke!

 

[Art&Sport]

You are delusional about American pull. Thinking that USA fed has problems politiking internationally compared to Japan or China is laughable.
ISU survives on the Japanese yen but wants American champions because American market is more important than fair scoring and North american skaters are allegedelly more marketable globally. Bye

In general, figure skating is more marketable to a wider public in Asian countries. Football, baseball, basketball, tennis and golf are the big sports in the U.S. In the U.S. we don't even have the kind of extensive television coverage of fs events that exists in most other countries where figure skating is more popular.

When there were huge television contracts for events shown in the U.S. back in the old days, U.S. fed had more clout with the ISU. Of course U.S. is a powerful country in general and since there is a long and very developed skating tradition, there's a huge depth of talented skaters in the U.S. Still it's one thing for U.S. fed to have some amount of power and influence, but entirely a different thing to know how to use it effectively. The sport of fs in general does not market skaters well, but in countries like Russia, Japan, and Canada, figure skaters are more well known and highly popular. In Japan, figure skaters are like rock stars. In the U.S., wider interest in figure skating and visibility for skaters happens mainly every four years when the Olympics rolls around.

The sport has definitely become more global over the years so there is a lot of cross-pollination with many Russian coaches in the U.S. and skaters from other countries training in the U.S., as well as choreographers and coaches in Canada and the U.S. assisting skaters from around the world. And there are partnerships that take place between many skaters from different countries.

The most dominant champions the U.S. has had in recent years have been in ice dance. The rise of U.S. ice dance happened organically over time when a number of Russian ice dance coaches settled in the U.S. and began training young students. The U.S. has had contenders and winners in pairs, but not recently (and U.S. fed has not done much to develop the pairs discipline, despite having some strong pairs historically).

Due to overemphasis on quads, the U.S. men's discipline has gone through many fluctuations over the past 7 years. We have had some wonderfully talented men skaters, but none who have been consistently on the podium at major events since 2010. The biggest men champions with marketing potential in their countries and globally have been Patrick Chan, Yuzuru Hanyu, Javier Fernandez, Shoma Uno, Dai Takahashi, and for awhile, Denis Ten. In U.S. ice dance, there's been Meryl Davis/ Charlie White, and the Shibutanis On the ladies' side a long time ago in the U.S. there was Michelle Kwan. The only near equivalent today has been Ashley Wagner in a small way with some sponsors, and Gracie Gold with a lot of sponsor interest and deals but no major championship wins to back up the interest in her. Again, the marketing opportunities and interest for U.S. skaters tends to gain momentum during the Olympics. But again, figure skaters are very low on the totem pole generally in the U.S., and especially in recent years due to there not being U.S. singles or pairs skaters winning major championships. That scenario will change with the burgeoning interest in Nathan Chen's accomplishments. However, it still remains to be seen what kind of effect Nathan's success will have in the American market that you say the ISU thinks is so important.

Jason Brown was a break out star in 2014 at the Olympics, but it was a transitional time with the quad continuing to take precedence over well-rounded skating. Since Jason has had difficulty mastering the quad, his opportunity to capitalize on the huge interest in his talent around 2014 Olympics, has been negligible. U.S. fed doesn't appear to know how to think outside-the-box and do very much to promote any of their skaters to a wider audience either in the U.S. or abroad.

I don't know what you mean by fair scoring. Shoma Uno won Skate America over Jason Brown and Adam Rippon. Nathan Chen has had a lot of success on the GP this season, and he won silver at GPF (the first GPF medal for U.S. men in a number of years). But Nathan's success is mostly tied to his ability to land multiple quads, which is the only way to rack up enough points to get on major medal podiums these days.

The last U.S. man to win gold at 4CCs was Adam Rippon, in 2010, so please explain what you mean by "American market is more important than fair scoring..." You think it's not fair scoring because a U.S. man has finally won 4CCs again? Was it fairer scoring when U.S. men were not winning 4CCs for the past 7 years?

 

[MaiKatze]

Since when the judges are the truth? And I'd take Chan over Shoma any day. At least he has the skating skills to back it up, not like Mr Uno, with cheated jumps and crossovers to get inflation at both TES and PCS. What a joke!

So Shoma has no skill and cheats his jumps to medal? And no judge realizes this faulty skating that is before their very eyes? I wonder how Shoma does it, it must be some magical skill to blind the judges to his so obviously cheated two-footed horror-like shortcomings.

 

[Art&Sport]

So why is he getting those PCS in competition, then?

Do you ever ask why Javi and Hanyu receive the huge PCS scores they get? It's not as if Nathan has no aesthetic skills in competition! That's seems to be what you'd like to believe. Don't you realize that PCS scores are always manipulated and are always based on technical ability and reputation, as much as on actual performance. Why do you question PCS when it's a skater beating your fave who receives inflated PCS? Yuzu's PCS are inflated too. No one seems to ever speak out against the discrepancies in PCS that exist across the board. No complaints from Hanyu and Javi fans until the fave skater you want on top of the podium loses his throne. The whining and complaining about PCS scores apparently happens only when big bad U.S. finally has a men's skater landing quads consistently and beating the rest of the top Quad Kings at the Game of Quads.

By the way, Yuzu beat Nathan on PCS, and Nathan beat Yuzu on TES.

 

[ranran]

I have just regain my composure after this great event.

My family actually stopped and watch together the live stream on TV with me when they saw there are Malaysians skater participated. Suddenly they are very into it when Julian skate and cheers when he landed his jumps and nooooo when he fell on the 3A. But despite the flaws once again love how he sell his program. It felt a bit short but what I love about Julian is his abundance of energy in selling whatever he is having. 15th is ok considering the flaw and his technical content for both program. Too bad for Kai but young skater from Malaysia participating in 4CC is considered a feat!

Since everyone is pretty much discuss everything in detail from PCS to TES to GOE and what not. Despite what some said. I wouldn't want to easily to declare the top 'veteran' aka Chan, Yuzu (and Fernandez) as yesterday news. Nathan is a beast and his consistency with his crazy technical content is unthinkable but this also changes the landscape of the mens figure skating to promising future I hope. Where clean program with high tech content balance with PCS will win. No one can afford to make mistake anymore. Not Nathan, Not Yuzu, Not Fernandez or Chan (I still wanted Chan in the race!)

The way I see it is that Chan started the new era race years back by showing tech+artistic possible but later on, he is so far ahead that he could afford flaw and still wins --> Yuzu continued the challenge upping his tech higher than Chan but keep improving the artistry however still continuing with the same flawed-but-still-win-trend --> Yuzu's Seimei break the trend with clean program high tech+great pcs proving that it's possible---> Boyang, Uno and Nathan take the challenge further upping their tech but improving their PCS to chase Yuzu ---> Nathan break the trend with cleanish program but higher tech+okayPCS beating few flawed Hanyu. So now everybody can't take the chance anymore because the level is currently very high and it has proven that some skaters can achieve it while being clean. The level will keep increasing when someone proven that its possible same like the when first double/triple/Quad.

For me I'm more excited of how Yuzuru/Fernandez/Chan/Boyang/Uno/Nathan keep challenging each other until Olympic. Now it became an exciting race. Nathan know he has to improve his PCS, I'm sure he will do that because his score despite being clean still didn't beat the world record that has lesser number and type of Quads. Others wouldn't just sit tight either. So what happened at 4CC is exciting I considered it one of my favourite mens event after NICE 2012 and GPF 2015 because of how crazy the tops fight for it.