2018 Worlds Ladies Short Program

[Sportfan]

I loved Konstantinova's performance (minus the two horrendous tanos), such speed, energy and performance quality. I'd say she's much more enjoyable to watch than Alina for instance (I like Alina but watching her skate is like hard work because she never holds any position and seems to think through each move). I heard from TAT that she rarely performs her SP cleanly but I hope to see more of her in the future, such a breath of fresh air.

Those tanos though. Not only do they not deserve + GOE but I wonder how any coach can let their student showcase such ugliness. They are almost worse than Sotskova's.

Yes

 

[pearly]

I read this post multiple times and I still can't believe it. Let me break it:

"skaters, don't kill yourselves on the ice, don't break your bones" - I fail to find something wrong with this.
"don't spend days and nights training the most difficult jumps, unique combos and quads... grow old enough, become a woman" - same as above. What is the correct advice? Train days and nights, starve yourself for a very short term success, delay puberty as much as possible and try to squeeze quads after quads. And also, did I mention starving yourself? You will be useless as an athlete after 20 years old anyway so destroy your body now and win some medals now before you are yesterday's story?. Also, your post is not correct - when Caro was Alina's age, she was landing every combo possible, including 3Lz-3Loop. Look it up if you don't believe me. I can't wait to see Alina landing 3-3 combos at 31 years of age.
"hire Lorry to get a slow elegant touching program and get your +3 for easy jumps and 10 for interpretation". I fail to see how 3F-3T, 3L and 2A are easy jumps. Medvedeva broke world records with this layout.
"Because music interpretation and mature body is what counts when we talk about Ladies figure skating. Noone cares that you can do the most difficult content late in the program. The judges and audience in goldenskate care for maturity not for achievements." - PCS is 1/2 of the total score. This is the sport, it's simple as it is. It is not only be a jumping contest. It's not aboute "mature bodies". It's about getting better by improving yourself as a skater and performer, which comes with time. Carolina was winning medals when Alina was born. Her longevity allowed her to develop to the skater she is today, and the is masterful at what she does best. And she is rewarded for it. PCS is not (or should not be) related to the difficulty of the jumps performed.

To me, Carolina's career should be an example for all the young ladies currently competing. She shows that: you don't need to be anorexic to land the jumps, you need good technique. She is the living proof since she is landing 3-3 at 31 years old. Second, the love she has for the sport is inspiring - she shows were resilience and never giving up gets you. A bad season (or a couple of bad seasons) / bad Olympics are not the end of the world. She also inspires skaters to work and improve on stroking / skating skills: many, many young Russian ladies have pointed out Kostner for that particular qualities and want to improve on that aspect as well.
How is Julia's story more inspiring, for example? An amazing talent forced into early retirement following an eating disorder? Is that a positive message?

Lol I know, I thought that too. The original message was meant to be sarcastic I guess, but it reads quite nicely

Chill out, original poster. Our girl Alina will win tomorrow. And with time you'll realize why Carolina won yesterday and why what you described in your post is exactly what a skater should do.

 

[moriel]

Mishin is 77 years old. I don't think he cares about comments from whomever. The only real thing could be the direct restriction by the state. But no matter what some say, Russia is not that kind of country. Another thing is Caro is not just a skater. She is the last legend and she is an inconsistent legend. If she wins here there will be good positive vibes how superior Russian coaching school in ladies is.

And wins Caro or not, so far there are no worries about Russia's 3 spots even without Medvedeva.

If there are enough comments, someone in the government will try to cut Mishin's funding for popularity. As for spot, one can argue that Caro "displaced" Tsurskaya from GPF, and if Masha is firth here, and Caro medals. But if Alina makes a mistake and Caro wins gold here, there will surely be a shitstorm.

As I said, people are *already* complaining that he trains competition (and also doesnt focus on his own skaters instead of working with Caro).

I hope this does not happen, but I see a major possibility for poostorm and reputation damage.

 

[Globetrotter]

If there are enough comments, someone in the government will try to cut Mishin's funding for popularity. As for spot, one can argue that Caro "displaced" Tsurskaya from GPF, and if Masha is firth here, and Caro medals. But if Alina makes a mistake and Caro wins gold here, there will surely be a shitstorm.

As I said, people are *already* complaining that he trains competition (and also doesnt focus on his own skaters instead of working with Caro).

I hope this does not happen, but I see a major possibility for poostorm and reputation damage.

In that case, people like Brian Orser should not have trained a Yuna or Yuzuru as they edged out a fellow Canadian in Vancouver (Rochette) and pushed down the fave in Sochi to silver (PChan). Besides, how do we ever know if he didn’t train his own Russian skaters? But then I rather doubt that grandpapa Mishin will bother at this time now. He is like...pushing 80?

 

[TryMeLater]

In that case, people like Brian Orser should not have trained a Yuna or Yuzuru as they edged out a fellow Canadian in Vancouver (Rochette) and pushed down the fave in Sochi to silver (PChan). Besides, how do we ever know if he didn’t train his own Russian skaters? But then I rather doubt that grandpapa Mishin will bother at this time now. He is like...pushing 80?

He's 76.
BTW, didn't Tarsova train Mao? Didn't Moskvina train Ina/Zimmerman?

 

[BethOnIce]

Am I the only one who finds something SERIOUSLY wrong with the variations in PCS? Obviously there will be discrepancies between judges, but take Bradie Tenell for example. For transitions, one judge gave her a 9.0 while another gave a 6.75. Those are vastly different scores, one being reserved for the top of tops and the other almost junior-ish. Another example is Wakaba Higuchi who received both a 9.5 and a 7.0 for interpretation of music. Something is wrong with the system when judges see the same skates THAT differently. Yes, PCS scores are subjective, but they shouldn’t be so subjective that one judge sees something exceptional while another sees something on par with Juniors.

 

[Lester]

Am I the only one who finds something SERIOUSLY wrong with the variations in PCS? Obviously there will be discrepancies between judges, but take Bradie Tenell for example. For transitions, one judge gave her a 9.0 while another gave a 6.75. Those are vastly different scores, one being reserved for the top of tops and the other almost junior-ish. Another example is Wakaba Higuchi who received both a 9.5 and a 7.0 for interpretation of music. Something is wrong with the system when judges see the same skates THAT differently. Yes, PCS scores are subjective, but they shouldn’t be so subjective that one judge sees something exceptional while another sees something on par with Juniors.

I think because of the now established trend of giving essentially juniors with good tech content, consistency and transitions astronomical PCS in all categories, the judges don't know what to do anymore.

 

[ruffledgrouse]

Just checking in from work. Sad for Isadora and Anne Line, but YAAAYYYY IVETTE!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The vibes are extra dramatic in this thread. I’m not even sure I need my morning coffee after reading some of these posts

Is there no one else who can appreciate Caro’s long gliding programs and Alina’s firecracker performance qualities equally. I actually appreciate the difference the two bring to an event like this and don’t want to see everyone doing only one kind of program. I’m glad the sport has moved on from the old ways of only the veterans getting top PCS and seeing new faces have to wait to earn their PCS. Is the balance 100% yet...no but it’s still a swinging pendulum and every year it seems to steady itself a bit more. It will probably never be perfect but it’s not unbearable to watch like some make it seem.

I think difficulty and complexity are very often worth as much as simplicity and displaying a mastery over more stylistically simple steps. Some programs can breathe and some can take your breath away and the world won’t end if both score similar. My point is I don’t see one road to the gold. I like that there is a fiery kid who is willing push the sport to the technical limits (she does perform very well though) but that an oldie but goodie like Caro can still not only compete but barely edge her out. The hometown vibes are for real but that’s figure skating and more notably figure skating judging. It’s part of the wacky charm this sport brings and I don’t think it’s going to change no matter how much we preach at one another. Maybe I’m naive but I think sometimes it’s best not to over rationalize or try to find absolute reason and most importantly trying to personalize the scoring to our preferences.

#MoreTanos

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think because of the now established trend of giving essentially juniors with good tech content, consistency and transitions astronomical PCS in all categories, the judges don't know what to do anymore.

I think the older judges who learned to operate under 6.0 are retiring and/or evolving to a more even handed way of judging. The old days of you have to earn your PCS kid are finally fading away. Now the kids can compete and it’s nice to see. Seeing veterans fall and hold onto medals because of a perceived maturity was always comical. I didn’t start seriously watching until early 2000’s but the standards have really changed. It’s much more sport than it used to be as was the intention of CoP.

 

[ivanja]

How can Sotskova's 3Lz+3T get everything from -2 to +2?

 

[MiraiFan]

the fact that zagitova gets more pcs than satoko is and always will be a crime against skating.

^^^this.

 

[Lester]

I like that there is a fiery kid who is willing push the sport to the technical limits (she does perform very well though)

I do believe she is fiery too. Only when she skates it's like she's giving an exam on all the moves she learned with zero passion. She needs better programs.

 

[BethOnIce]

I do believe she is fiery too. Only when she skates it's like she's giving an exam on all the moves she learned with zero passion. She needs better programs.

Maybe K should take off my tinfoil hat, but I feel like she wasn’t given a program that was intended to win the OGM. It feels like it was meant for silver, and Eteri et all didn’t have complete faith in her abilities.

 

[BethOnIce]

I think the older judges who learned to operate under 6.0 are retiring and/or evolving to a more even handed way of judging. The old days of you have to earn your PCS kid are finally fading away. Now the kids can compete and it’s nice to see. Seeing veterans fall and hold onto medals because of a perceived maturity was always comical. I didn’t start seriously watching until early 2000’s but the standards have really changed. It’s much more sport than it used to be as was the intention of CoP.

Good point. But until an entire generational shift of judges occurs, they really need to have a sit down and decide what entails a certain PCS score or a positive or negative GOE. For many skaters, if I was shown the PCS and GOE scores of two different judges without knowing who they were for, I would think they were different skaters. With such disparate scores, it makes the judging feel completely arbitrary.

 

[Tolstoj]

I loved Konstantinova's performance (minus the two horrendous tanos), such speed, energy and performance quality. I'd say she's much more enjoyable to watch than Alina for instance (I like Alina but watching her skate is like hard work because she never holds any position and seems to think through each move). I heard from TAT that she rarely performs her SP cleanly but I hope to see more of her in the future, such a breath of fresh air.

Those tanos though. Not only do they not deserve + GOE but I wonder how any coach can let their student showcase such ugliness. They are almost worse than Sotskova's.

Yes, to all of this.

Her skating is very authentic, and she should ditch the tano asap to work more on the quality of these jumps: the rotation and sometimes the position in the air is a little off.

 

[qwertyskates]

Caro's GOEs are too much - her jumps were steadier than usual but those GOEs, especially for rather slow, easier spins...
Alina didn't perform to her standards, but the elements that she did well, her spins, 3F and 2A were really underscored.

Home crowd is definitely a factor here, but I'm ok with that.

Definitely declaring Alina = Anne Line Gerjsem without the jumps is so way off, I can't take Alina's "critics" seriously anymore.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Good point. But until an entire generational shift of judges occurs, they really need to have a sit down and decide what entails a certain PCS score or a positive or negative GOE. For many skaters, if I was shown the PCS and GOE scores of two different judges without knowing who they were for, I would think they were different skaters. With such disparate scores, it makes the judging feel completely arbitrary.

I do agree to an extent and that’s exactly why I started the 2017-18 Judging Anomlies Thread.
https://goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?66482-2017_18-ISU-Judging-Anomalies

I don’t however think all judges need to see one skater perform and then for all to be in some accepted corridor though. I’m much more interested in an analytical discussion about how the judge’s marks stand the test of consistency from one skater to another’s. For instance maybe most judges have Alina 9.5 for an event and that judge gave her 8.25 for this hypothetical event. I’d like to see that judge’s marks for the other skaters stay somewhat statistically lower for all the skaters and not suddenly jump to higher than average for others and especially for skaters from their home country...if ya know what I mean

Take a look at the first post on that thread. I laid out a case as fair as I could and gave criticism and showed what I thought the judge did right but put a spotlight on what I found to be blatant poor judging. I invite and would welcome more people to use that exact format to post in that thread about a specific judge and their marks.

I’m so tired of people over simplifying and saying “this skater is so underscored” and “that one is over marked”. That really only stirs the flames and gets us nowhere except into shouting matches.

 

[Ziotic]

Am I the only one who finds something SERIOUSLY wrong with the variations in PCS? Obviously there will be discrepancies between judges, but take Bradie Tenell for example. For transitions, one judge gave her a 9.0 while another gave a 6.75. Those are vastly different scores, one being reserved for the top of tops and the other almost junior-ish. Another example is Wakaba Higuchi who received both a 9.5 and a 7.0 for interpretation of music. Something is wrong with the system when judges see the same skates THAT differently. Yes, PCS scores are subjective, but they shouldn’t be so subjective that one judge sees something exceptional while another sees something on par with Juniors.

I disagree with this completely. You see it on this forum very clearly. Many think that Alina should be getting extremely high 9.0+ scores, while others, myself included, think that her scores should be in the 7.0 range.

Different people, especially regionally have vastly different opinions on what quality movement, performance and interpretations are.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Or maybe it had more to do with her lacking ''fire'' as to speak that was there in Pyeong Chang? She still was overmarked in PCS, higher than Satoko ... ?

Zagitova is a nice skater, but if you take aside her difficult jumps, one particularly beautiful spin and crammed transitions in my eyes she's actually in most PCS much more like ... Anne Line Gjersem (Norway) who only finished 33rd than like Satoko or Carolina when they are on. The difference is striking.

Really? the PCS of 33rd place?
Alina has wonderful transitions, better than any other senior right now. That's 20% of PCS right there.
While Alina may not have the skating skills of Satoko, it's not like hers are very bad. I think her mark was fair. Another 20% of PCS.
Alina has good musicality. Just watch her step sequence--she uses fast-paced and quick, accelerating steps, just as the music becomes faster and accelerates. When the music builds, she does too, as she heads into her jumps. And her spins are perfectly timed to the music, plus she actually hears and listens to her music. With some, you could put any sad music on and it would be the same thing. Another 20%.
Alina's composition is also wonderful, as seen above, with the climax of the music and the way the elements are timed. Her steps are also choreographically complex and beautiful to watch. Another 20%.
Alina performs as well. While yesterday might not have been her best, it's still more than what we see from a lot of people. She's still committed to every step and brings out true emotions: despair, hope, nerves/frenzy. It's freeing to watch and quite amazing, actually. The last 20%.

Just because someone doesn't have the style of skating that you like doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve PCS. I acknowledge that Carolina has skating skills and that Anna Pogorilaya is committed to her music and performing to it. But you're comparing Alina's PCS to not-even-qualifying PCS. That's just not true.