2018 Worlds Ladies Short Program

[moriel]

In that case, people like Brian Orser should not have trained a Yuna or Yuzuru as they edged out a fellow Canadian in Vancouver (Rochette) and pushed down the fave in Sochi to silver (PChan). Besides, how do we ever know if he didn’t train his own Russian skaters? But then I rather doubt that grandpapa Mishin will bother at this time now. He is like...pushing 80?

Is Orser being funded by Canadian Government? Is he getting free ice time from the gov / fed?

 

[millie]

Is Orser being funded by Canadian Government? Is he getting free ice time from the gov / fed?

I stand to be corrected but I think that Orser is paid by the skaters or their parents..Why would the Canadian Gov. pay him. I would also say they have to pay for their own ice time. Is it any different in any other country?

 

[KweenAsada]

Come on, Wakaba!!! You can still make the sky falllllllll in the free skate!!!!!! You got this. Just breathe <3

 

[jenaj]

Or maybe it had more to do with her lacking ''fire'' as to speak that was there in Pyeong Chang? She still was overmarked in PCS, higher than Satoko ... ?

Zagitova is a nice skater, but if you take aside her difficult jumps, one particularly beautiful spin and crammed transitions in my eyes she's actually in most PCS much more like ... Anne Line Gjersem (Norway) who only finished 33rd than like Satoko or Carolina when they are on. The difference is striking.

Not familiar with Gjersem, but agree that Zagitova is not on Carolina's or Satoko's PCS level despite her scores. I think if she were scored on an ordinal basis, she would be 4th in PCS, after Kostner, Miyahara and Osmond. Fifth, if Medvedeva were in the mix. I also was struck by her busy but rather average skating skills, seeing her right after Carolina.

 

[colormyworld240]

Not really. She performs movements but it is obvious she does not really feel the music and is literally skating through rather than to the music. In Pyeongchang, she was at least getting her timing right. Here after missing the combo, her timing was a bit off and she was visibly lagging and "catching up" to the music instead and her transitions were a lot more rushed as a result. As such, the sheer quantity of transition should not translate to high scores due to poorer quality. Sorry but I don't see how rushed movements and skating through the music deserves high IN and CO marks. At least in Pyeongchang, she was in sync. That she still scored higher PCS than an exquisite interpretation from Satoko or to a lesser extent, Kaetlyn is in my mind really confusing.

Again, I don't see how she does not feel the music? She shows plenty of emotion in her face and movements. I didn't see that at the beginning of the season but I definitely see it now. I'm just wondering how she can "feel the music" more - what more emotions can she show? Other than slowing down the movements and yes being out of sync here.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I disagree with this completely. You see it on this forum very clearly. Many think that Alina should be getting extremely high 9.0+ scores, while others, myself included, think that her scores should be in the 7.0 range.

Hmm...that just seems way out of Wack. You’re talking about a 10 to 15 point gap just in PCS alone which seems insurmountable based on what you yourself based on preferences and regional influences. To me that sounds like a recipe for controversy. Not sure I would consider those marks as an accurate depiction of what we’ve seen on the ice.

I’ve been on the ice with and have friends who coach students who compete and get 6’s in PCS and the gap between them and Alina is ridiculously high. I would even consider Alina in the 8.5 range acceptable but close to out of touch with how scoring should be and is awarded today.

Are you eggagerating for effect? Alina and Caro are completely different and putting those preferences aside they do an amazing job of delivering their programs and executing into the 9.0’s IMO. Both of them rather easily if I might add.

 

[Ziotic]

Hmm...that just seems way out of Wack. You’re talking about a 10 to 15 point gap just in PCS alone which seems insurmountable based on what you yourself based on preferences and regional influences. To me that sounds like a recipe for controversy. Not sure I would consider those marks as an accurate depiction of what we’ve seen on the ice.

I’ve been on the ice with and have friends who coach students who compete and get 6’s in PCS and the gap between them and Alina is ridiculously high. I would even consider Alina in the 8.5 range acceptable but close to out of touch with how scoring should and is awarded today.

Are you eggagerating for effect? Alina and Caro are completely different and putting those preferences aside they do an amazing job of delivering their programs and executing into the 9.0’s IMO. Both of them rather easily if I might add.

I personally think basically everyone is marked too high in PCS.

Also I don’t think Alina is a 7 in every category. I just find her very junior in say for example interpretation, she doesn’t feel the movements or understand the theme of her SP. She is simply executing moves as taught to her. She’s also 15 so I wouldn’t expect a deeper understanding of what she’s trying to portray. Her face is basically blank or she looks nervous or like she’s focusing on the next element.

Another example I could make is Kailani. I think she, in her best performances, would deserve high marks for performance maybe 8.5-9 as she is giving it everything she has. O don’t think that means that her SS are 8.5-9 worthy. But the judges all corridor judge and use the PCS as a 6.0 judging tool.

 

[Lester]

Really? the PCS of 33rd place?
Alina has wonderful transitions, better than any other senior right now. That's 20% of PCS right there.
While Alina may not have the skating skills of Satoko, it's not like hers are very bad. I think her mark was fair. Another 20% of PCS.
Alina has good musicality. Just watch her step sequence--she uses fast-paced and quick, accelerating steps, just as the music becomes faster and accelerates. When the music builds, she does too, as she heads into her jumps. And her spins are perfectly timed to the music, plus she actually hears and listens to her music. With some, you could put any sad music on and it would be the same thing. Another 20%.
Alina's composition is also wonderful, as seen above, with the climax of the music and the way the elements are timed. Her steps are also choreographically complex and beautiful to watch. Another 20%.
Alina performs as well. While yesterday might not have been her best, it's still more than what we see from a lot of people. She's still committed to every step and brings out true emotions: despair, hope, nerves/frenzy. It's freeing to watch and quite amazing, actually. The last 20%.

Just because someone doesn't have the style of skating that you like doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve PCS. I acknowledge that Carolina has skating skills and that Anna Pogorilaya is committed to her music and performing to it. But you're comparing Alina's PCS to not-even-qualifying PCS. That's just not true.

Your post surprises me. I personally feel like I am watching a slightly out of sync video whenever she skates. As for wonderful transitions, they would be, if they were actually performed instead of just... eeer, we say marked in Bulgarian, it kind of means you have put them wherever they come up with the program, but haven't at all performed them. For now they are transitions just for the sake of there being transitions.

I guess because Alina has an "it" factor and some sort of profound presence, this could fool you into thinking she actually performs the music, but she doesn't. She does live in the moment of the performance, more than in the music, if that makes sense. She is a fierce competitor. But the music is more just kinda there. Like background to perform all the stuff she can to.

Now Anna, oh, she was so amazing to watch on the ice. I dearly miss her. And I do think Alina can become as gripping and captivating although I am not sure Eteri will particularly bring out that with her. She wins left and right anyway, so why fix what's not broken. Or maybe now that the pressure of winning Olympic gold is off, she will have the time and space to explore and bring depth to her skating.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I personally think basically everyone is marked too high in PCS.

Well that clears that up

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

eeer, we say marked in Bulgarian, it kind of means you have put them wherever they come up with the program, but haven't at all performed them. For now they are transitions just for the sake of there being transitions.

But why is a transition that is held out longer seen as superior and not “just held out for the sake of doing less athletic movement.” I know which one would be more difficult for me to do

 

[Lester]

But why is a transition that is held out longer seen as superior and not “just held out for the sake of doing less athletic movement.” I know which one would be more difficult for me to do

Well I am not a skater but I would assume moving onto the next element is more difficult when you truly extend and balance yourself into a move, then you'd have to get out of it. Whereas if you're barrelling through them all, it is easier to switch from one to the other.

 

[Ziotic]

Well I am not a skater but I would assume moving onto the next element is more difficult when you truly extend and balance yourself into a move, then you'd have to get out of it. Whereas if you're barrelling through them all, it is easier to switch from one to the other.

I am a skater, and you are correct! It’s much more difficult to hold movement.

Just imagine what’s easier staying and holding a swat position for 10 seconds or doing 10 quick squats that don’t fully reach the proper leg angles.

 

[Figure 8's]

I so agree!! Carolina has to be so inspiring for other skaters. 31 years old and still skating with the best. I thought her short was exquisite. She skated with passion and emotion that few skaters can emulate. The long program is usually her down fall but if she skates half as well as her short, she should at least medal. After all competitions that she has been in and all that she has been threw, I would be happy to see her go out a winner.

 

[Izabela]

I personally think basically everyone is marked too high in PCS.

Also I don’t think Alina is a 7 in every category. I just find her very junior in say for example interpretation, she doesn’t feel the movements or understand the theme of her SP. She is simply executing moves as taught to her. She’s also 15 so I wouldn’t expect a deeper understanding of what she’s trying to portray. Her face is basically blank or she looks nervous or like she’s focusing on the next element.

While Zagitova is easily growing on me, so far this is my biggest pet peeve of her skating. It doesn't make a difference if you watch her skate on mute or not; she just doesn't skate to the music. It's not even about having blank facial expression or not interpreting the music; the music is useless even for her movements. Almost nothing connects. She's just 15 and she has a room for improvement and I sincerely hope she chooses to improve on her musicality.

Seriously, Zagitova has the "it" factor me (probably because of the ugly things they said about her during the Olympics that makes me root for her haha) and I want her to be remembered years after she's retired. Let's see how she will grow.

 

[qwertyskates]

I am a skater, and you are correct! It’s much more difficult to hold movement.

Just imagine what’s easier staying and holding a swat position for 10 seconds or doing 10 quick squats that don’t fully reach the proper leg angles.

I strongly disagree - first, they depend on different ways of using the muscles - one group to hold the position and the other involves engaging a completely different set of muscles in rapid succession. They are apples and oranges.

It also depends very much on the type of position held, a spread eagle or other two-footed movement is very easy to hold, whereas a stsq with different changes in positions on one leg like what Alina does is very difficult and expends more energy.

What have squats got to do with figure skating? Do you mean as in spin positions? Obviously, changes in spin positions are rewarded more compared to no change in position.

So "holding" a position isn't more demanding or difficult even if it might be more aesthetically pleasing to some.

Changing position also means the skater is tested on balance, skating skills, energy, dexterity, footwork and many other qualities.

This is why for st sq, spins, etc. higher frequency of changing positions = higher levels

Alina can definitely skate Caro's program, but if she does it, she will NOT win, as she will not be maximizing her TES potential and she will always lose to Caro in PCS.

This is why Alina HAS to up her levels with more difficult, packed content to make up for her PCS disadvantage.

When she can win with programs that allow her to hold positions without lowering her TES, I'm quite sure she will happily execute a less tiring program.

For every perfect performance there are hundreds, if not thousands of practices. If skaters can win with fewer transitions, I'm sure they and their coaches would MUCH prefer less tiring programs so they can preserve their energy for the jumps.

 

[Ziotic]

I strongly disagree - first, they depend on different ways of using the muscles - one group to hold the position and the other involves engaging a completely different set of muscles in rapid succession. They are apples and oranges.

It also depends very much on the type of position held, a spread eagle or other two-footed movement is very easy to hold, whereas a stsq with different changes in positions on one leg like what Alina does is very difficult and expends more energy.

What have squats got to do with figure skating? Do you mean as in spin positions? Obviously, changes in spin positions are rewarded more compared to no change in position, so "holding" a position isn't much more demanding even if it might be aesthetically more pleasing to some.

Changing position also means the skater is tested on balance, skating skills, energy, dexterity, footwork and many other qualities.

This is why for st sq, spins, higher frequency of changing positions = higher levels

Holding an edge, an actual edge is harder than switching from foot to foot or moving to a different potions on a flat blade. That’s the basics of what’s taught for basic skating. That’s what figures were for.

But from my understanding some countries have vastly different focuses on basic skating skills.

I realize they got rid of figured because they were boring to watch but that’s why skaters now a days have such bad skating skills for the most part.

 

[qwertyskates]

Holding an edge, an actual edge is harder than switching from foot to foot or moving to a different potions on a flat blade. That’s the basics of what’s taught for basic skating. That’s what figures were for.

But from my understanding some countries have vastly different focuses on basic skating skills.

I realize they got rid of figured because they were boring to watch but that’s why skaters now a days have such bad skating skills for the most part.

Again, this is subjective judgment, you are also assuming that edges do not change. I concur that deep edges is beautiful to watch. However, the system doesn't award great edges anymore, eg Patrick has beautiful edges but they don't help him to win over skaters with shallower edges but lots of transitions and great jumps.

Whatever the preference for aestehtics, it isn't reflected in how the COP consider "more difficult" or how they reward levels. A skater who holds a position longer in a stsq, for example, executing fewer turns and steps, will definitely see their levels lowered.

They might even lose their levels if they execute enough turns but don't get up/down on the ice!

Many may prefer the aesthetics of holding a position, but skaters are in this to win, not to please a segment of the audience.

Caro is awarded insane GOEs and PCS. There is no way to beat her except to up the TES, so this is the right strategy for a fresh senior like Alina and her team to pick.

 

[Ziotic]

Again, this is subjective judgment, you are also assuming that edges do not change.

However, it isn't reflected in how the COP consider "more difficult" or how they reward levels. A skater who holds a position longer in a stsq, for example, executing fewer turns and steps, will definitely see their levels lowered.

Many may prefer the aesthetics of holding a position, but skaters are in this to win, not to please a segment of the audience.

Caro is awarded insane GOEs and PCS. There is no way to beat her except to up the TES, so this is the right strategy for a fresh senior like Alina and her team to pick.

I’m not saying they should execute fewer turns or step, I’m saying that they should hold edges and have the appropriate turns and steps to get level 4, like Satoko, Caro, Evgenia and Kaetlyn do. Not flail like Alina.

 

[qwertyskates]

I’m not saying they should execute fewer turns or step, I’m saying that they should hold edges and have the appropriate turns and steps to get level 4, like Satoko, Caro, Evgenia and Kaetlyn do. Not flail like Alina.

In the SP, Alina is meant to flail, it is reflecting a state of mental chaos to discordant music.

Back to the discussion, Caro did a lot of changing steps and positions for her stsq as well. So difficulty as judged = more changes in body positions

 

[Ziotic]

In the SP, Alina is meant to flail, it is reflecting a state of mental chaos to discordant music.

Agreed that frantic is supposed to be what is expressed, but you can do frantic movements that are still finished properly. She does not.