How important is faithfulness to the source of the music?

[TontoK]

But some songs truly are off limits. Some poor Japanese junior had "Strange Fruit" as one of her pieces of music, not knowing its history I am sure. She eventually replaced it, I think with Sinnerman. That is an egregious example, but they exist. We do need to have limits.

The same thing with that horrid "aboriginal" dance. Other cultures can be approached respectfully, as Meryl and Charlie did with Bollywood. As anyone with an ounce of common sense or the politeness their mama raised them with would do.

Playing devil's advocate here. We don't share the same sensitivities here, but I do respect your opinion...

Which songs exactly should be off limits? Who decides? What might be deemed controversial by modern Western standards might not be viewed so by other cultures. So, in the case of Strange Fruits, would you consider that a case of enforcing modern American/Western cultural norms on a culturally different athlete? Is cultural enforcement better or worse than cultural appropriation?

For the record, I wasn't saddened when that program was dropped. I just don't think it would be good skating music for anyone, no matter their background... but I wouldn't have denounced it if she had used it. I just wouldn't have liked it. You might have been OK had this music been chosen by an African-American skater (I don't know this, I'm just surmising), but I would have still thought it sucked, because my objections would not have been racially/culturally based.

Likewise, I didn't like the aboriginal program, and particularly the original costumes. That was just cartoonish, and not in a charming way. Again, I wouldn't have banned it (if I could). I just didn't like it, and I moved on.

 

[Mathman]

^ To me, its a tricky question. No one wants to be a cultural bully, telling other people what they can skate to and what they can't. On the other, hand it never hurts to ask oneself -- am I hurting someone's feelings here? In this particular case I have no doubt that the young skater was told that she was honoring American Black poetry, music and history (however sad). Bit others didn't see it that way.

 

[Mathman]

About nterpretations and musical settings that are too literal, if you must do Swan Lake please refrain from perfoming in a cpstune that is half-covered with white feathers and half with black. That way you won't look so silly when you cruise down the ice flapping your wings

On the other hand, Johnny Weir hit the "camp" jackpot with Camile in The Swan.

 

[el henry]

Playing devil's advocate here. We don't share the same sensitivities here, but I do respect your opinion...

Which songs exactly should be off limits? Who decides? What might be deemed controversial by modern Western standards might not be viewed so by other cultures. So, in the case of Strange Fruits, would you consider that a case of enforcing modern American/Western cultural norms on a culturally different athlete? Is cultural enforcement better or worse than cultural appropriation?

For the record, I wasn't saddened when that program was dropped. I just don't think it would be good skating music for anyone, no matter their background... but I wouldn't have denounced it if she had used it. I just wouldn't have liked it. You might have been OK had this music been chosen by an African-American skater (I don't know this, I'm just surmising), but I would have still thought it sucked, because my objections would not have been racially/culturally based.

Likewise, I didn't like the aboriginal program, and particularly the original costumes. That was just cartoonish, and not in a charming way. Again, I wouldn't have banned it (if I could). I just didn't like it, and I moved on.

As I respect yours.

I do understand the "slippery slope" argument, and I do want to invite many different takes on many different issues, even if I find it benighted (like the saloon girl outfit for "Smple Gifts"). Nevertheless, of course different persons will have different takes on borderline, and even not so borderline, issues.

I would maintain that there are issues that are not borderline. Where it is not a matter of sensitivities, but respect. Using a song describing the lynching of Black men in the South for a skating program is not borderline. To say that we cannot have opinions that those programs are inappropriate, lest we be arguing that in some random program a blue dress offends me where a red dress does not, is a reductio ad absurdum. We can, and should, express strong negative opinions about the program based on a song about lynching without inviting a ban on blue dresses.

And we have forums to express those opinions.

 

[TallyT]

Which songs exactly should be off limits? Who decides? What might be deemed controversial by modern Western standards might not be viewed so by other cultures. So, in the case of Strange Fruits, would you consider that a case of enforcing modern American/Western cultural norms on a culturally different athlete? Is cultural enforcement better or worse than cultural appropriation?

For the record, I wasn't saddened when that program was dropped. I just don't think it would be good skating music for anyone, no matter their background... but I wouldn't have denounced it if she had used it. I just wouldn't have liked it. You might have been OK had this music been chosen by an African-American skater (I don't know this, I'm just surmising), but I would have still thought it sucked, because my objections would not have been racially/culturally based.

Likewise, I didn't like the aboriginal program, and particularly the original costumes. That was just cartoonish, and not in a charming way. Again, I wouldn't have banned it (if I could). I just didn't like it, and I moved on.

Strange Fruit actually describes dead and rotting bodies hanging on trees. If there is a skater on the face of the planet with the maturity and emotional sensitivity to use it (and for showing themselves off in competition??? please)... they simply wouldn't. To be blunt, the aboriginal program was the cultural equivalent of evacuating - in front of the congregation and the Cross - in church. Do you think people would 'move on' if someone did the Judeo-Christian equivalent? And there are songs, good songs, with deliberately crude sexual language that, were a junior to pick them, the uproar would be deafening.

No, I don't think they should be banned, we shouldn't need a blacklist. Even the very young and sometimes not very bright can exercise some decency and common sense for extreme cases like these at least and if they don't... they wear the backlash.

 

[TallyT]

About nterpretations and musical settings that are too literal, if you must do Swan Lake please refrain from perfoming in a cpstune that is half-covered with white feathers and half with black. That way you won't look so silly when you cruise down the ice flapping your wings

Come on, we want some silly costumes! It's all part of the fun

 

[Mathman]

We once had a thread in whch someone opined that it was an afront to religion to skate to Schubert's Ave Maria. Becuase the music was so divinely inspired and the prayer so holy that it was blasphemous to put it to such profane and earthly use as a figure skating contest. Did that poster have a point?

Schubert - Ave Maria

¿Quieres música para tu boda? Visita nuestra webhttp://musicaevent.wix.com/musicaevent. Música para bodas Huelva, Música para bodas Sevilla, Música para boda...

www.youtube.com

On the other hand, the Bach/Gounod was just pretty music, soi that was OK.

Yo-Yo Ma, Kathryn Stott - Ave Maria (J.S. Bach/ Gounod)

Music video by Yo-Yo Ma, Kathryn Stott performing Ave Maria (J.S. Bach/ Gounod). (C) 2015 Sony Music Entertainmenthttp://vevo.ly/d43M7X

www.youtube.com

 

[Diana Delafield]

I am not talking about musical maturity to perform Tchaikowsky .. I am talking about a 13 year old telling the story of a prostitute for instance.

Now I've got a half-memory whose details are eluding me. Was it at Skate Canada that there was, for a year or two, a separate artistic event? And one year many viewers were disturbed by one skater, a very young (12-14 or so) girl, American I think, who did a program portraying a child forced into exotic dancing and prostitution and bitterly hating it? I can see the program and the skater vividly, although I can't remember her name or the music used, and I thought she did an excellent acting job with her characterization. But there was, understandably, a lot of backlash about it.

 

[4everchan]

Now I've got a half-memory whose details are eluding me. Was it at Skate Canada that there was, for a year or two, a separate artistic event? And one year many viewers were disturbed by one skater, a very young (12-14 or so) girl, American I think, who did a program portraying a child forced into exotic dancing and prostitution and bitterly hating it? I can see the program and the skater vividly, although I can't remember her name or the music used, and I thought she did an excellent acting job with her characterization. But there was, understandably, a lot of backlash about it.

cannot help you there... i was talking about these Big Spender, Méditation de Thaïs and Sheherazade programs we have seen often these recent years... but didn't want to name particular skaters because if they are 13-14 years old, the responsibility lays on their team.

 

[Diana Delafield]

But, just to illustrate how contrarian I can be... recently a young woman skated to the old Shaker hymn Simple Gifts, and she was dressed like Miss Kitty at the Longbranch Saloon. I disliked the clash between the music and the styling. It's OK, I'm allowed to like and dislike any program... but that's the risk any skater takes in preparing a program.

That tune shows up, with slight variations, in other places than its Simple Gifts version. Lord of the Dance, for instance, the lyrics of which make LOTD much more of a hymn than the Shaker SG song. I would suspect for a skating program, if they used an instrumental version, that they were using Copland's Appalachian Spring, which would explain the "pioneer" type of costume? I didn't see the skating performance, so I'm only going by a familiarity with that melody and its frequent appearance in different guises.

 

[TontoK]

Strange Fruit actually describes dead and rotting bodies hanging on trees. If there is a skater on the face of the planet with the maturity and emotional sensitivity to use it (and for showing themselves off in competition??? please)... they simply wouldn't. To be blunt, the aboriginal program was the cultural equivalent of evacuating - in front of the congregation and the Cross - in church. Do you think people would 'move on' if someone did the Judeo-Christian equivalent? And there are songs, good songs, with deliberately crude sexual language that, were a junior to pick them, the uproar would be deafening.

No, I don't think they should be banned, we shouldn't need a blacklist. Even the very young and sometimes not very bright can exercise some decency and common sense for extreme cases like these at least and if they don't... they wear the backlash.

Your second paragraph sort of summarizes my stance. No blacklist, but backlash is fine.

It's no different than any other artistic endeavor. If you take an artistic risk, it doesn't always pan out. I remember being mildly shocked when I learned that T&D would be skating to Bolero. But Holy Cow was that a risk that paid off. For younger contributors, you might not believe that folks ever questioned the tastefulness of using that music, but I promise that was the case. However, the first time I saw a young girl skate to the same music, I was not amused. And don't get me started on Big Spender. Do I advocate banning those pieces or limiting them strictly to adults? No. But I also won't watch them.

And, perhaps it's just a function of age... but I'm far more appalled by some popular music on the radio (I'm side-eyeing YOU, Cardi B) than I am by anything discussed on this thread.

 

[TontoK]

That tune shows up, with slight variations, in other places than its Simple Gifts version. Lord of the Dance, for instance, the lyrics of which make LOTD much more of a hymn than the Shaker SG song. I would suspect for a skating program, if they used an instrumental version, that they were using Copland's Appalachian Spring, which would explain the "pioneer" type of costume? I didn't see the skating performance, so I'm only going by a familiarity with that melody and its frequent appearance in different guises.

I don't know. When I listen to Appalachian Spring, my mind is not immediately drawn to that imagery... LOL but it's fine. Just not my cup of tea.

And drifting... one of the great tragedies of my skating fandom is that Brian Boitano never skated his Copeland program perfectly in competition (that I saw). It was his long for his Olympic comeback year. Flawed every time out of the gate. I think of it every time that music is mentioned.

 

[Diana Delafield]

cannot help you there... i was talking about these Big Spender, Méditation de Thaïs and Sheherazade programs we have seen often these recent years... but didn't want to name particular skaters because if they are 13-14 years old, the responsibility lays on their team.

Well, thanks for one more piece of the memory fragment anyway -- now I remember it was "Big Spender" that was the main music used. And I'm pretty sure it was in the early 1990s. At one point the girl did the biggest waltz jump I've ever seen from a child, shown several times in the replay. Soared more than halfway across the ice.

 

[Mathman]

Strange Fruit actually describes dead and rotting bodies hanging on trees. If there is a skater on the face of the planet with the maturity and emotional sensitivity to use it (and for showing themselves off in competition??? please)... they simply wouldn't.

Maturity and emotional sensitivity. That's the thing right there. Here is Billie Holiday. I am trying to think where I would choreograph in my Russian split jump.

Billie Holiday - Strange Fruit - Lyric Video - Square

Educational purposes.I do not own the rights to the song or video.

www.youtube.com

 

[Diana Delafield]

I don't know. When I listen to Appalachian Spring, my mind is not immediately drawn to that imagery... LOL but it's fine. Just not my cup of tea.

And drifting... one of the great tragedies of my skating fandom is that Brian Boitano never skated his Copeland program perfectly in competition (that I saw). It was his long for his Olympic comeback year. Flawed every time out of the gate. I think of it every time that music is mentioned.

Maybe he had the same problem my partner and I had when we tried choreographing an Appalachian Spring program and abandoned it. Its big moments were majestic in a concert hall, but too stodgy for skating. We felt as if we were trudging through water up over our knees.

 

[Mathman]

I think that the playful naughty tune Hey Big Spender is pretty thin gruel compared to the popular music that young teenagers actually spend hours every day listening to.

 

[4everchan]

I think that the playful naughty tune Hey Big Spender is pretty thin gruel compared to the popular music that young teenagers actually spend hours every day listening to.

The minute you walked in the joint
I could see you were a man of distinction, a real big spender
Good looking, so refined
Say, wouldn't you like to know what's going on in my mind?
So let me get right to the point
I don't pop my cork for every gay I see
Hey big spender!
Spend a little time with me
Wouldn't you like to have fun, fun, fun?
How's about a few laughs, laughs?
I can show you a good time
Let me show you a good time
The minute you walked in the joint
I could see you were a man of distinction, a real big spender
Good looking, so refined
Say, wouldn't you like to know what's going on in my mind?
So let me get right to the point
I don't pop my cork for every guy I see
Hey big spender!
Hey big spender!
Hey big spender!
Spend a little time with me

 

[el henry]

Maturity and emotional sensitivity. That's the thing right there. Here is Billie Holiday. I am trying to think where I would choreograph in my Russian split jump.

Billie Holiday - Strange Fruit - Lyric Video - Square

Educational purposes.I do not own the rights to the song or video.

www.youtube.com

and the lyrics for those who might not want to click on the video:

Southern trees bearing a strange fruit
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root
Black bodies swinging in the Southern breeze
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees

Pastoral scene of the gallant South
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth
Scent of magnolia sweet and fresh
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is a fruit for the crow to pluck
For the rain to wither, for the wind to suck
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop
Here is a strange and bitter crop.

No slippery slope argument should ever permit this song to be skated to. Now, was it actually banned? No, evidently saner minds prevailed. But in my opinion "the marketplace of ideas" is no excuse to even consider a skating program to this song.

 

[Mathman]

The minute you walked in the joint
I could see you were a man of distinction, a real big spender
Good looking, so refined
Say, wouldn't you like to know what's going on in my mind?
So let me get right to the point
I don't pop my cork for every gay I see
Hey big spender!
Spend a little time with me
Wouldn't you like to have fun, fun, fun?
How's about a few laughs, laughs?
I can show you a good time
Let me show you a good time
The minute you walked in the joint
I could see you were a man of distinction, a real big spender
Good looking, so refined
Say, wouldn't you like to know what's going on in my mind?
So let me get right to the point
I don't pop my cork for every guy I see
Hey big spender!
Hey big spender!
Hey big spender!
Spend a little time with me

Like I said: pretty thin gruel. Shall I post the lyrics to some of the most popular rap songs?

After all, Michelle Kwan walked in fields of gold:

You'll remember me when the west wind moves
Among the fields of barley
You can tell the sun in his jealous sky
When we walked in fields of gold

So she took her love for to gaze awhile
Among the fields of barley
In his arms she fell as her hair came down
Among the fields of gold

Will you stay with me? Will you be my love
Among the fields of barley?
And you can tell the sun in his jealous sky
When we walked in fields of gold.

Pretty ribald stuff if you ask me.

 

[el henry]

Like I said: pretty thin gruel. Shall I post the lyrics to some of the most popular rap songs?

After all, Michelle Kwan walked in fields of gold:

You'll remember me when the west wind moves
Among the fields of barley
You can tell the sun in his jealous sky
When we walked in fields of gold

So she took her love for to gaze awhile
Among the fields of barley
In his arms she fell as her hair came down
Among the fields of gold

Will you stay with me? Will you be my love
Among the fields of barley?
And you can tell the sun in his jealous sky
When we walked in fields of gold.

Pretty ribald stuff if you ask me.

Are you really saying you think this and "Big Spender" are the same? (shocker: I don't )

And the issue is not what adult Michelle Kwan skates to, but what minor teens skate to.

Frankly, I don't care if a 14 year old listens 24/7 (except when at the rink) to the hardest of hard core rap. An adult should not be choreographing a routine to "I don't pop my cork for every guy I see" for that 14 year old. The *adult* is the one charged with making these choices.

Plenty of peppy bouncy Broadway music out there. No need for the adult to be lazy and not read the lyrics to "Big Spender"