2016 Cup of China Mens FS

[ancientpeas]

well there's harsh and harsh... and though I read MIM's post with lots of interest, I come to the conclusions that if that judging would be applied, it would to other skaters as well... scores in the low eights for Patrick would necessarily translate to scores in the low 7s for others like Jin... perhaps even lower.

You know, I find Boyang a very exciting skater and I would have liked to see him at GPF like many others... however, if you have watched his Skate America outing, would you really want him to qualify????

Look at Ashley, she won skate America.... everyone thought she would go to GPF .. but she had two bad programs here and she most likely is not going to GPF. There's no real big drama about it... I think it's perhaps harder to understand for people that Jin is not going because he did have a good competition here.... but people forget way too easily... I mean people, including BOP forget so easily that they forget when a skater does a wonderful short program and manages to hold on to their lead despite a imperfect LP.... there are two programs in figure skating... the SP and the LP.... and for GPF, there are two outings.... those who qualify need to perform well enough in BOTH outings....

A bit of "What have you done for me lately?".

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

This opinion of BOP is so far out of the corridor that it was immediately thrown out so it's not even on the table for discussion.

Agreed. That Petrov lowest score argument was a good one. 6.5 is like average junior level PCS... To say Patrick Chan, of all skaters, deserves a score like that is absolutely bewildering. I've been trying to see BOP's side of things but when he spews tripe like that, it reminds me why I tend to dismiss his opinion.

He's just mad Chan wasn't scored low enough to lose. Oh well.

Congrats Patrick on your 2 Grand Prix wins in 2016!

 

[MIM]

This was super interesting. And strangely then it would have ended up the way I would see it. Chan first in the free, Jin first over all and both going to the GPF. I knew I was a harsh marker btw.

well there's harsh and harsh... and though I read MIM's post with lots of interest, I come to the conclusions that if that judging would be applied, it would to other skaters as well... scores in the low eights for Patrick would necessarily translate to scores in the low 7s for others like Jin... perhaps even lower.

You know, I find Boyang a very exciting skater and I would have liked to see him at GPF like many others... however, if you have watched his Skate America outing, would you really want him to qualify????

Look at Ashley, she won skate America.... everyone thought she would go to GPF .. but she had two bad programs here and she most likely is not going to GPF. There's no real big drama about it... I think it's perhaps harder to understand for people that Jin is not going because he did have a good competition here.... but people forget way too easily... I mean people, including BOP forget so easily that they forget when a skater does a wonderful short program and manages to hold on to their lead despite a imperfect LP.... there are two programs in figure skating... the SP and the LP.... and for GPF, there are two outings.... those who qualify need to perform well enough in BOTH outings....

Yes, that is the point!
I just edited the post to show how harsh you have to be in a spectrum...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Thanks for the stats, can you consider posting your own data analysis at the Data Thread as well? It's quite fascinating when you list them out this way! I'd say with Nathan, Rippon, Jason and Kolyada in the running for the final GPF spot, and Samohin had yet to skate when Jin received his scores, it's hard to say if Jin's scores by the American and Russian judges were unaffected by these considerations. Shoma is already assured of his place, as is Patrick, so I think the Japanese judge is more neutral, along with the Polish, Czech and New Zealand judges.

I wanted to leave GoI's thread for his/her stats, that is why I didn't post these numbers there
About the Japanese judge, I don't think it was that Shoma was already qualified. The Japanese judge at SC judged Yuzu harsher than the Canadian one, IIRC. The One at TDF was among the fairer ones in Javi vs Shoma. Not sure if it's different with the ladies, but for the men it seems they just didn't get the memo.

scores in the low eights for Patrick would necessarily translate to scores in the low 7s for others like Jin... perhaps even lower.

And that's exactly the wrong kind of thinking, rewarding PCS because of name and apparently not the actual performance. If he skates well, sure Patrick is way ahead, but with a performance like his CoC SP? No. IMO, Boyang outperformed Patrick in the SP.
(And no, this doesn't mean his overall PCS should be higher, but the PE mark - yes)

To say Patrick Chan, of all skaters, deserves a score like that is absolutely bewildering.

Of all skaters? You won't believe it, but Patrick Chan isn't the be all and end all of musical Interpretation for all people.

 

[Blades of Passion]

To say Patrick Chan, of all skaters, deserves a score like that is absolutely bewildering.

You show your own lack of logic and objectivity here.

"Patrick Chan, of all skaters" means NOTHING when it comes to Interpretation. He has always been weaker in this area and regardless any skater can have a bad program and/or fail to perform a program well. When a skater who has always been weaker in this area comes with a bland program AND skates it poorly, disconnected...seriously what do you expect the score should be?

If 10 is perfection of interpretation in skating for a piece of music and 0 is "no interpretation at all", and in Patrick Chan's performance and program he was clearly not doing anything with the music over half the time, then how is a 6.5 undeserved? Like I said before, that could even be seen as a generous. If a skater is doing nothing with the music for over half of the performance then actually perhaps a 5 would be the more accurate score for Interpretation.

This matters a lot because Interpretation is the key to creating audience interest and it is actually more difficult to always be with your music and stay within an interpretation while holding your composure to deliver all of the technical content. We see so many crap positions and random steps and lackluster movements and failure of the skater to move with purpose and connect to the audience because there isn't much of an actual basis at all for how Interpretation is scored. Skaters just get high scores on this component regardless, based upon their skating skills and reputation. That's not how it should be.

Someone can have a 9 in Skating Skills and a 5 in Interpretation.

 

[qwertyskates]

well there's harsh and harsh...
You know, I find Boyang a very exciting skater and I would have liked to see him at GPF like many others... however, if you have watched his Skate America outing, would you really want him to qualify????

..there are two programs in figure skating... the SP and the LP.... and for GPF, there are two outings.... those who qualify need to perform well enough in BOTH outings....

Out of many performances so far of Jin, he had one poor SP at SA for a brand new program at the beginning of a new season. So ONE poor showing a few weeks ago is enough to make us ignore his exciting and rather good performance here? Let's not forget in our efforts to diminish Jin that he made the fewest mistakes of all the men at COC.

 

[qwertyskates]

I wanted to leave GoI's thread for his/her stats, that is why I didn't post these numbers there

I think GOI is making it open to everyone, if I'm not mistaken.:agree2:

As long as it's data, and there's work on on them, it's worth posting. We all see different aspects and are influenced in our own way by what we see, as well as our bias, but statistical empirical data does tell a fuller, more interesting picture.

We are stubborn humans and we all cling onto our views, but having the data analyzed might help us think a bit more about the way our views are shaped, and speaking for myself, it helps me to learn more about the sport and its judging. I hope to learn and grow, develop a more open mind and greater appreciation.

 

[Marin]

You show your own lack of logic and objectivity here.

"Patrick Chan, of all skaters" means NOTHING when it comes to Interpretation. He has always been weaker in this area and regardless any skater can have a bad program and/or fail to perform a program well. When a skater who has always been weaker in this area comes with a bland program AND skates it poorly, disconnected...seriously what do you expect the score should be?

If 10 is perfection of interpretation in skating for a piece of music and 0 is "no interpretation at all", and in Patrick Chan's performance and program he was clearly not doing anything with the music over half the time, then how is a 6.5 undeserved? Like I said before, that could even be seen as a generous. If a skater is doing nothing with the music for over half of the performance then actually perhaps a 5 would be the more accurate score for Interpretation.

This matters a lot because Interpretation is the key to creating audience interest and it is actually more difficult to always be with your music and stay within an interpretation while holding your composure to deliver all of the technical content. We see so many crap positions and random steps and lackluster movements and failure of the skater to move with purpose and connect to the audience because there isn't much of an actual basis at all for how Interpretation is scored. Skaters just get high scores on this component regardless, based upon their skating skills and reputation. That's not how it should be.

Someone can have a 9 in Skating Skills and a 5 in Interpretation.

I find this very interesting:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BNCuB4NAy1_/
this too https://www.instagram.com/p/BNDjvemAjTP/

 

[4everchan]

just read your edit... very nice work.

Yes, that is the point!
I just edited the post to show how harsh you have to be in a spectrum...

 

[4everchan]

And that's exactly the wrong kind of thinking, rewarding PCS because of name and apparently not the actual performance. If he skates well, sure Patrick is way ahead, but with a performance like his CoC SP? No. IMO, Boyang outperformed Patrick in the SP.
(And no, this doesn't mean his overall PCS should be higher, but the PE mark - yes)

who said I suggested awarding PCS because of name? PCS is more than just musical interpretation... because actually, if you want to go there, I am far from buying certain skater's interpretation on prince... PCS also evaluates skating skills, transitions and other things like composition.. These three criteria, even on a less than ideal performance are not too affected... the white pant skater is a good example of that since landing on a knee doesn't mean that his PCS should go down right???? So yes, Patrick could have been marked a bit lower in performance because his usual happiness (ie Skate Canada or galas) with this program didn't show as well at COC... but really, the rest was there... Touching down and having a turn out on a jump... doing a double... yup.. these technical things are costly... and removed a bit of life to his program but he didn't fall, and crashed on the ice at all... he kept going with the beautiful skating we know him for... it's not because he is Patrick Chan that he gets high points there... it is because he SKATES LIKE PATRICK CHAN... I really like Boyang. Exciting jumps. A real good sense of humour. A showman. A clown... But as funny as he is with his face, that's not part of skating to me... it's called clowning... Have you seen Kurt Browning doing the clown, he not only did it with his face but with his blades too... of course, in a competitive program, things need to happen very fast... but exactly, instead of playing around with the judges for the whole length of the rink with facial expressions and arm movements, perhaps he could do it with his blades... ? that would be very impressive no? oh well... it doesn't matter what I saw anyways.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You know, I find Boyang a very exciting skater and I would have liked to see him at GPF like many others... however, if you have watched his Skate America outing, would you really want him to qualify????

This makes no sense. How soon you've forgotten that last year Patrick Chan qualified for the GPF with 1st + 5th place finishes, the same as Boyang could this year if he had been deservedly placed 1st at this competition. Do you think Chan didn't deserve to go last year??? He bombed both of his SP's on the Grand Prix last season (in fact his SP was a mess the entirety of last season).

Boyang skated a solid LP at Skate America this season after bombing the SP. He then skated an amazing SP at Cup of China and a very strong LP. Yes, his one bad performance can be forgiven, not that it "needs" to be anyway, since all the rules care about are the combined placements of competitions you went to.

This isn't about the GPF anyway. It's about justice and accuracy of judging. Boyang deserved to win this competition. Even if he hadn't deserved to win, it still doesn't mean someone else should be overscored. Patrick Chan threw the competition away in the SP, where he was vastly overmarked for an awful performance, and he continued to be somewhat overmarked in the LP with things like +3 GOE's for a totally average Triple Flip.

I mean people, including BOP forget so easily that they forget when a skater does a wonderful short program and manages to hold on to their lead despite a imperfect LP

Um, no, I don't. Stop trying to justify your own bias and knee-jerk defensive position towards Chan. You even actively contradict yourself trying to say "remember there are 2 programs to a competition". Yes, there are two programs, and Chan flat out BOMBED the SP here. Maybe it needs to be said again so you understand - CHAN. BOMBED. It was a VAPID, NERVOUS performance with ALL of the jump elements flawed.

Blade of Passion, it was very painful for me to watch his flawed jumps, and deadpanned face during the SP. The program is supposed to be lighthearted and bright. I almost agree with your assessment emotionally, but let's not have our disappointment disparage what actually happened on the ice.

The "numbers soup" you posted means nothing whatsoever. Nothing. The scores in this sport are virtually pointless to compare and just because a certain score was received, that doesn't mean it was at all deserved. LOOK at the actual performances. As you just said, "what actually happened on the ice".

Here is Chan's SP from CoC - this is what actually happened on the ice:

* The program opens with the longing, electronic chords of Dear Prudence. In this opening section Chan does a random cross-roll and a random quick inside spread eagle. What does this have to do with the music? Nothing in my eyes. He is moving too rapidly and not portraying the emotional resonance of the music, instead just showing off random choreography and "transitional" movement.

* When the lyric of "Dear Prudence, why don't you come out to play" enters the music, there is not much change in his skating at all. His arms soon go into airplane stance. His face is emotionless. His body is rigid. He does another random quick cross-roll and then goes into a 4T+3T combo, putting his hand down and losing flow on the last jump. After finishing that element the lyric of "it's a brand new daaaaayyyyy" comes into the melody and all that Patrick does is raise one arm in a half-hearted, semi-circular kind of motion. The lyrics continue onward and again there is nothing really happening in the choreography. Just a random step and setup for a 3Axel.

* That 3Axel ends up being a bad jump with a hand down and stepping out of it. After regaining his balance, he does a random mini hop. Why does he do this? That hop has nothing to do with the music. Again, another "transition" for no reason whatsoever. It's not even an impressive transition as a stand-alone kind of move. He then follows that up by doing the flying sit spin that he does in EVERY program. What do these positions of the spin have to do with the music? How do they reflect the nuances and cadence of the melody? Well, they don't. This is just "pasted" choreography, with the musical interpretation being thrown out the window.

* The program then continues on with another random arm sweep and more airplane arms. Again, very little honest and emotional interpretation of the music is detected. The music has now changed to "Blackbird" and he goes into his footwork sequence - the steps here just being random in relation to the music. This section of music is even more delicate than the previous melody, but the choreography just ignores it. There is no introspection, no real sense of loss or longing emanating from his body, and even purely on a surface level in terms of speed the movements don't at all follow the cadence of the music. "All your life you were always waiting for this moment to arrive" - A staggeringly important statement of accumulated personal dreaming and fulfillment (or lack thereof) and what is happening with Patrick's interpretation in relation to the music here? Not much. Then during "take these sunken eyes and learn to see", just another random hop.

* The footwork sequence ends and the lyric is now telling us "all your life you were only waiting for this moment to be free". Is there any sense of emotional context being provided by Patrick Chan here? No, there isn't. Instead just comes another random cross-roll and a couple steps leading into a Triple Lutz attempt. He ends up getting tilted in the air and only doing a double. Coming out of the jump we get more blank airplane arms and then some back turning 3's into a spin. "Into the light of the dark black night" - Oh, really? I couldn't tell at all.

* The spin finishes and the music becomes gentler, with birds, and we are given some half-hearted backwards hops. Well, at least the choreography is trying to reflect the music here. Following that comes a re-introduction of "Blackbird singing the dead of night" and we get some random, ineffective choreography (airplane stance and then random upward arms while doing a turn). After that he appears to very briefly be cradling a baby and then does another airplane stance (perhaps literally trying to mimic "learn to fly" in the lyric? Well, that's a least better than nothing I suppose) before he goes into the last spin of the program. This final spin doesn't have a whole lot to do with the music, it's just the same combination spin he always does, and then he ends the program after the music.

 

[4everchan]

qwerty... i think you are a bit reading into things here. I am not diminishing Boyang's performance. I am saying that he lost his GPF berth at SA, not at COC... a second place at COC should have been enough, but he wrecked his own chances here... Considering how Patrick is trying a new jump this year, his LP was pretty impressive right??? Only mistake on that new jump...

We have had a lot of sensible conversations in the past, but right now, it's really impossible to discuss anything here as you are upset that Boyang didn't make GPF. Well, he is young, he has lots of seasons ahead of him. He can take the extra time to refine his skating and solidify his programs. Yes, they are new. Yes, they have both a lot of potential, especially his SP. In the LP, as playful as he is, I think we can all agree that there is lots of room to improve his skating... at times, it looks like a jump fest. That's not going to win him much even when flawless... don't forget that he had a cushion, that the total scores of other skaters will be higher than Patrick's etc... if you truly hope for Boyang to do well, then let him have a chance to grow. He has done a huge amount in that direction but he still needs to work a lot on his spins, his steps, his edge work, his transitions... his jumps will NOT bring him the top of the podium unless other falters. I'd prefer for him to be able to be in control of his own destiny in the future. He knows that himself. He's mentioned it several times. He has already improved in that department but if his jumps are second to none, the rest of his skating is average. YMMV

Out of many performances so far of Jin, he had one poor SP at SA for a brand new program at the beginning of a new season. So ONE poor showing a few weeks ago is enough to make us ignore his exciting and rather good performance here? Let's not forget in our efforts to diminish Jin that he made the fewest mistakes of all the men at COC.

 

[Blades of Passion]

No, there is no high road for you. You're the one who insulted me, trying to say that I "so easily forget". Of course you did just reply anyway, wasting space on the forum in order to give yourself another +1 post count. You have spammed this forum with straw-man arguments, knee-jerk responses, and deflections ever since you've arrived. Literally any time anyone talks about Chan (or any Canadian skater), you immediately show up and start being defensive. Regardless, if you really say you're not going to reply in-depth here, then hopefully that means you might actually read and think about what someone else is saying instead of just ignoring and treating certain skaters as if they are saints.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

PCS is more than just musical interpretation... because actually, if you want to go there, I am far from buying certain skater's interpretation on prince...

I knew you'd go there, what else could you have answered?

And you could have saved yourself the trouble of 90% of your post, because I specified it's PE I was talking about, not the PCS as a whole. Not skating skills, not transitions. But of course you ignored that and argued with something else.

white pant skater is a good example of that since landing on a knee doesn't mean that his PCS should go down right????

No, it's a reason his PCS should go down. And his name is Yuzuru btw, you seem to have forgotten.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Considering there is a post here Patrick Chan needs to win when he skates like here in China, regardless of what others do (including those who were not present at CoC), that got a huge number of likes by other Chan fans, I think it's pretty clear that conversation is futile.

 

[ancientpeas]

Considering there is a post here Patrick Chan needs to win when he skates like here in China, regardless of what others do (including those who were not present at CoC), that got a huge number of likes by other Chan fans, I think it's pretty clear that conversation is futile.

Both sides seem pretty entrenched to me. I've been told by some people that there isn't a single world class skater anywhere but in Japan, China and Russia. Not a single one. I even asked the person for clarification, which they never bothered to give so I can only assume that that is what they really meant. I've also seen people whose dislike of a certain skater (Osmond, Chan, Evgenia M., Chock and Bates, Satoko M. spring readily to mind but there are others certainly) is so strong that they honestly think they should never get high marks for anything they do.

Where is that comment? If I liked that comment it wasn't because I believe that. It might have been for something else in that comment that I agreed with. I actually think that the only person who can win regardless of what everyone else does is Hanyu. Clean Hanyu beats everyone else IMO at this time.

I don't know what the intentions are of other posters but I am, for the most part, legitimately trying to wrap my head around the opinions of other people. I do find conspiracy theories annoying, TBH, but that's on me. Everyone has the right to have any opinion they want to have, regardless of it's ability to be supported by facts. I'm sure I have a few myself.

Judges are just regular people, albeit more knowledge and trained people, and they have preferences and likes and dislikes. Judges like P. Chan's skating (I think that's obvious). If I weren't getting the PCS I wanted I would try to figure out what it was about Chans skating that I could incorporate into my skating that would make the judges favour me too. It's a game. You can play it and succeed or you can stick to your guns and hope that the judges notice your unique qualities and reward them.

I need to read these parts of the thread but not comment on them but it usual starts with me wanting to know why someone has an opinion I've never considered before and then it goes downhill into bickering.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Of all skaters? You won't believe it, but Patrick Chan isn't the be all and end all of musical Interpretation for all people.

When did I say he was? I'm saying he's known as one of the best artistic skaters and being awarded 6.5 for IN, would be absolutely absurd.

If I were to say "Hanyu, of all skaters, getting a 0 GOE on a clean jump is bewildering", it's not me saying he's the be all and end all of awarding high GOE for all people. It's acknowledging that he is known for having some of the best quality jumps and a 0 GOE on a clean jump for him would be bewildering - the same way Patrick Chan (who is known for good interpretation/artistry - save for the haters who believe otherwise) shouldn't be getting lower than an 8.00 (unless he literally skips his choreography and just strokes in between his jumps).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

And that's exactly the wrong kind of thinking, rewarding PCS because of name and apparently not the actual performance. If he skates well, sure Patrick is way ahead, but with a performance like his CoC SP? No. IMO, Boyang outperformed Patrick in the SP.
(And no, this doesn't mean his overall PCS should be higher, but the PE mark - yes)

Yeah, I'm sure you were protesting Hanyu's PE marks as high as 9.00 for a performance like his SC SP, even though other skaters arguably outperformed him there. :sarcasm:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You show your own lack of logic and objectivity here.

"Patrick Chan, of all skaters" means NOTHING when it comes to Interpretation. He has always been weaker in this area and regardless any skater can have a bad program and/or fail to perform a program well. When a skater who has always been weaker in this area comes with a bland program AND skates it poorly, disconnected...seriously what do you expect the score should be?

If 10 is perfection of interpretation in skating for a piece of music and 0 is "no interpretation at all", and in Patrick Chan's performance and program he was clearly not doing anything with the music over half the time, then how is a 6.5 undeserved? Like I said before, that could even be seen as a generous. If a skater is doing nothing with the music for over half of the performance then actually perhaps a 5 would be the more accurate score for Interpretation.

This matters a lot because Interpretation is the key to creating audience interest and it is actually more difficult to always be with your music and stay within an interpretation while holding your composure to deliver all of the technical content. We see so many crap positions and random steps and lackluster movements and failure of the skater to move with purpose and connect to the audience because there isn't much of an actual basis at all for how Interpretation is scored. Skaters just get high scores on this component regardless, based upon their skating skills and reputation. That's not how it should be.

Someone can have a 9 in Skating Skills and a 5 in Interpretation.

That isn't clearly how he skated, it is merely your opinion. The overwhelming majority of the skating world would have given Patrick way above 6.5 for IN for that SP, and clearly your bias is driving your assessments.

And hey, a 6.5 even being too generous? Well, how about a 3.5, or a 1.5? LOL... how low can you go, BoP?

 

[Yatagarasu]

Where is that comment? If I liked that comment it wasn't because I believe that. It might have been for something else in that comment that I agreed with.

It's on page 42, I have no idea why it won't open right now, just scroll down.
No, I don't think you liked that, but the point stands. That posts holds such a radical statement that that is what counts.

I don't know what the intentions are of other posters but I am, for the most part, legitimately trying to wrap my head around the opinions of other people. I do find conspiracy theories annoying, TBH, but that's on me. Everyone has the right to have any opinion they want to have, regardless of it's ability to be supported by facts. I'm sure I have a few myself.

I'm not someone who mentioned any theories of the sort and I was very clear from the start.

When SP happened, I was insisting on the hand down, that got positive GOEs. As a response I got it's a 'silly mistake', why is 0.40 so important when there are far bigger mistakes, 1 or 0 ... etc.

I think the final result shows precisely why it is so important that certain mistakes do receive adequate, consistent punishments. I am talking about GOEs. In 99,9% of the cases it won't matter but it will in that 0,01%. Patrick Chan won by 1.18 points, which means that the 'silly mistake' is actually over one third of that score. We aren't talking about something that can be subjective here, like parts of the PCS, but straight up GOE that shouldn't be this debatable except the judges are making it so. This isn't the only jump that got an inflated GOE for Chan when looking at his FS and that remaining 0.78 disappears before you can blink!

There has been a lot of talk here how as long as the placing was fine in the end over-inflation is something we deal with but here, the placements were decided by a tiny margin with very debatable scores and Boyang lost more than just the gold, he lost the possibility of GPF.

Notice, I didn't even touch Boyang's scores. I didn't even touch the PCS, in either long or the short.

In return there's so much irrelevant text added that it's become hilarious. Either they're not interested in 'small details' or they're not interested in judges scores because whatever or oh hey, but Boyang did this at SA and if only Boyang did this here now, Boyang is young (oh hey does this mean it doesn't matter if say in 2018 this repeats and Chan kicks him off the Olympic podium too? I mean Boyang has another cycle, Chan is retiring!). ... all of which is irrelevant. Chan and Boyang skated the programs that they skated and the judges then proceeded to use double standards when evaluating their programs, making Chan the overall winner.

And before anyone says anything, I stand by my initial reaction that Patrick's long was beautiful (or whatever I said, I can look if you insist), I think his victory in the free is earned and yes, here it is applicable that the placements are fine, in the free, even if he got over-scored but the problem rose when that, combined with the SP, over-scored that it also was, put him above Boyang.