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2016 ISU Congress
- Thread starter visaliakid
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Trying to phase them out like spiral sequences. I am soo disappointed in this.
Assuming the Scale of Values remains the same, laybacks are still worth a bit more than other spins in one position with no fly or change of foot. If that's what's now required in the ladies' SP, then the ladies who can do good laybacks will continue to do them because they earn more points. It's the ones who are less good at laybacks but good at camel or sitspins, or maybe some other upright variation(?), who will use a different option.
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This is kinda what i am wondering... what is the layback being replaced with. If it is a choice, then they need to be the same base value and i think both men and women should be given the same choice. I don't like the idea of saying "well ladies you can do what the men do, but you will get more points if you do the more ladylike layback ... and men will not be rewarded or accepted doing a layback as it is not macho enough" that just does not sit well with me. If everyone has to do a camel/sit, that would be ok, but I would be kinda sad to see the layback go away.
we will see i guess... but i do hope we get a little more info about this change soon. I mean some skaters are already working on next season's programs... the ladies should find out ASAP if they are being forced to replace their layback with something else.
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- Apr 14, 2014
There are some rather ugly laybacks though that it will be a pleasure not to have to sit through now, tbh.
Fall is an awful disruption of the program which is often not reflected enough score-wise. As much ss I love Yuzuru, I don't think a 2-fall program winning Olympics is a good thing (to stall arguments: yeah I know he still would have won, it just shows how bad the competition was) The more falls the worse it gets. This new rule will hit Men the most as they are the most prone to falls and perhaps they will start having more reliable, realistic layouts. And if they don't, let them be punished.
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- Jul 31, 2014
It appears that the fall rule is seniors only. I don't like that. I liked the idea of it developing a don't fall culture... and this does not do it as much... if any. I also wonder if we will see more juniors trying harder stuff due to a "well falls don't count as much in juniors so might as well try" heck, the argument could be made that it encourage more risk in juniors... which is just stupid. It also adds an extra level of stress to moving up to senior...one that I don't think is needed or helpful.
I think this will lead to more young men attempting quads as juniors to be blunt. Then again maybe they want men to attempt them as juniors. As I have always said I am fine with landing quads... attempts should be done safely and I am not sure "better trying it when it costs less" is such a good reason for an attempt. I worry we will see more skaters attempting things as juniors before they are really ready due to this change. It almost feels like they are saying "better to fall as a junior" and while youth can lead to greater healing... i just am not sure it is right to encourage risky behavior.
I think it should at least apply to juniors as well to be honest. Or at least at ISU competitions it should be the same as senior.
Maybe it will help, but who knows... i am disappointed it is only senior.
I think this will lead to more young men attempting quads as juniors to be blunt. Then again maybe they want men to attempt them as juniors. As I have always said I am fine with landing quads... attempts should be done safely and I am not sure "better trying it when it costs less" is such a good reason for an attempt. I worry we will see more skaters attempting things as juniors before they are really ready due to this change. It almost feels like they are saying "better to fall as a junior" and while youth can lead to greater healing... i just am not sure it is right to encourage risky behavior.
I think it should at least apply to juniors as well to be honest. Or at least at ISU competitions it should be the same as senior.
Maybe it will help, but who knows... i am disappointed it is only senior.
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Note: Interesting Drama surrounds Friday's ISU Congress Elections...
Exclusive: U-turn over cancelled reception dominates final day of campaigning before ISU Presidential election
http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1038300/exclusive-u-turn-over-cancelled-reception-dominates-final-day-of-campaigning-before-isu-presidential-election
Exclusive: U-turn over cancelled reception dominates final day of campaigning before ISU Presidential election
http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1038300/exclusive-u-turn-over-cancelled-reception-dominates-final-day-of-campaigning-before-isu-presidential-election
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Yes! I'm so happy!
No more having to see my Queen with her persistent back troubles force herself into a position that will only make those problems worse! Skaters' backs all around the world are saved!
Of course the flexible skaters (and their fans) will complain...but as a fan of an unflexible skater (and someone with a screwed up back themselves) I say FINALLY SOME COMMON BLOODY SENSE from the ISU! People call to ban quads all the time "because the injuries!!!" but moan when a skater "doesn't have a good layback" but is forced to do so regardless of how much damage they might be doing to do it.
I agree with this! Not only is it safer, it allows for the possibility of greater variation in spins It also makes those who can do really good laybacks (see Mirai, Karen, etc.) stand out, rather than calling to attention a weakness in another skater. Not everyone has Mirai's spine!
I like this rule.
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Mmmm. Interesting.
Yeah. I can understand Speedy's decision, as some would see it as endorsing Sallak. But, on the other hand, cancelling it makes it look as if he is discouraging people from supporting Sallak.
What a pity that what was a nice gesture by the Hungarian Federation has become so controversial.
But my question is - why was it that the Hungarian Federation were the ones that thought of doing this? Surely the host federation (Croatia's) should have been the ones holding the party.
There is something that is confusing me about that article.
Nick Butler (the author) says that:
I thought Sallak was from our side of ice skating.
Like, in his nomination form (pages 6-10 of this PDF), in the "Competitive Ice Skating activity/experience" section, he ticked the "Single Skating" box, not the "Speed Skating" or "Short Track" boxes.
Nevertheless, whether he is from our side or the other side, I still like what he wrote in the "Motivation" section more than what Dijkema wrote (or any of the others, for that matter).
CaroLiza_fan
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I think it's naive to think that guys who do quads regulary will simplify programs just to be "safe" and more pleasing to some (or even majority) of the fans, as they know they won't be winning anything this way. Instead we will have more "hit" or "miss" programs. We both agree that the rule will affect Men the most. They already have -4 in GOE for falls on quads, why additional deduction, again? I think it's just not fair, that's all. (You don't have to agree with me of course). Sure, there will be guys who wanted to introduce quads to their programs and now may hesitate. But skaters want to do quads and they will be doing them, even if they will fall on them. I'm against punishing skaters severeal times for any mistake, they may do in a program. Quads are really hard elements to perform and instead of rewarding, the system punish skaters for improving and pushing the sport.
I mentioned Anna Pogorilaya before, but I recalled today, that one of my faovurite headcases, Michal Brezina, had 4 falls in Free Program at Nebelhorn Trophy :hopelessness: He's not one dimensional skater, like some of the quad jumpers, but he will be punished severely by this rule, cause falls (even on easy elements) are his everyday bread. It may be just me, but I'd rather see a skater, who tries fully rotated quad, 3A or any other properply done element and fall, than UR jumps or level 2 step sequence. I'm glad that ISU aplies this rule only to senior competitions, though. At least juniors won't be scared to try new elements in their programs.
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Looks like it's between Dijkema and Sallak: https://twitter.com/JeroenPrinsNL/status/741200579138097152
EDIT: Dijkema won! https://twitter.com/JeroenPrinsNL/status/741205498423283712
EDIT 2: And Lakernik is the figure skating vice president: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741207235360129024
EDIT: Dijkema won! https://twitter.com/JeroenPrinsNL/status/741205498423283712
EDIT 2: And Lakernik is the figure skating vice president: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741207235360129024
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Buchanan became a Chair of Synchro Technical Committee once again: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741236295440175104
Other members: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741237538082422784
Fabio Bianchetti became Chair of Single & Pair skating Technical Committee: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741237681254993924
Other members: https://twitter.com/JeroenPrinsNL
Halina Gordon-Półtorak, once again, became a Chair of Ice Dance Technical Committee: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741240114974760960
Other members: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741241283788873728
Other members: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741237538082422784
Fabio Bianchetti became Chair of Single & Pair skating Technical Committee: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741237681254993924
Other members: https://twitter.com/JeroenPrinsNL
Halina Gordon-Półtorak, once again, became a Chair of Ice Dance Technical Committee: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741240114974760960
Other members: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/741241283788873728
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I think it's naive to think that guys who do quads regulary will simplify programs just to be "safe" and more pleasing to some (or even majority) of the fans, as they know they won't be winning anything this way. Instead we will have more "hit" or "miss" programs. We both agree that the rule will affect Men the most. They already have -4 in GOE for falls on quads, why additional deduction, again? I think it's just not fair, that's all. (You don't have to agree with me of course). Sure, there will be guys who wanted to introduce quads to their programs and now may hesitate. But skaters want to do quads and they will be doing them, even if they will fall on them. I'm against punishing skaters severeal times for any mistake, they may do in a program. Quads are really hard elements to perform and instead of rewarding, the system punish skaters for improving and pushing the sport.
It may be just me, but I'd rather see a skater, who tries fully rotated quad, 3A or any other properply done element and fall, than UR jumps or level 2 step sequence. I'm glad that ISU aplies this rule only to senior competitions, though. At least juniors won't be scared to try new elements in their programs.
Well, yes, maybe it is naive of me to think skaters will start limiting jumps.
I read all your arguments and I still think punishing every next fall more severely makes sense. If you can't stand your jumps, don't try them. Go for easier ones. Five-fall Yuzu gets second place because he rotates everything and everybody knows it's preposterous but that's the rules. Junior men fall like flies, and frankly, at the elite level, they could use this rule. I'd rather see one win just an axel and not one with a rotated but fallen quad. Of course, as you said, the new rule might not stop men from going for it but if they have a bad skate, they won't be able to surpass men with easier layouts but a decent skate. The severe punishments start only from the 3rd fall, and lets be real, a 3-fall program is a diseaster. If you fall on a quad, then psych yourself out and fall on your lutz and flip, you don't deserve a good score because you managed an axel and a second quad over someone who jumped a clean quadless program.
When it comes to Brzezina, I must confess that his multiple falls are usually way too distracting for me to see much beyond them and appreciate his skating. I prefer Boyang Jin and his simplicity over multiple falls. Of course I'm hoping for the best of both worlds, multidemensional skating and fall-less programs. But if multidemensional skaters (Hanyu, Patrick, Denis, Javi etc) have a diseaster, they should be held down because c'mon, it's a diseaster.
I gurss we'll have to agree to disagree.:confused2:
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I agree to disagree 
In IMO the purpose of figure skating isn't just landing jumps (who may still be ugly) or doing some clean elements. It' a sport, and in sport, the falls happens. In every discpline, unless you're swimming But everyone is entitled to have their own preferences, so I understand this is yours. I leave watching clean, artistic skates for shows and in competition I except fighting for the points
In IMO the purpose of figure skating isn't just landing jumps (who may still be ugly) or doing some clean elements. It' a sport, and in sport, the falls happens. In every discpline, unless you're swimming
But everyone is entitled to have their own preferences, so I understand this is yours. I leave watching clean, artistic skates for shows and in competition I except fighting for the points 
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- Apr 23, 2014
I love laybacks, but for some girls' backs they are just too much to handle, especially to reach level 4.... I'm sure all the ladies who have great Biellmanns will continue doing laybacks and many of the others will maybe include some layback positions into the combo spins
It's not "no layback spins." Just no required layback spins.
I predict a majority of junior and senior ladies will still be choosing the layback for the required one-position spin in the short program. Especially this year if their programs are already choreographed, but I would bet even in future years because the point values are higher than other solo spins, assuming the skater can achieve the same level and GOE.
Laybacks aren't required in ladies' freeskates, but we still see plenty of them there.
I predict a majority of junior and senior ladies will still be choosing the layback for the required one-position spin in the short program. Especially this year if their programs are already choreographed, but I would bet even in future years because the point values are higher than other solo spins, assuming the skater can achieve the same level and GOE.
Laybacks aren't required in ladies' freeskates, but we still see plenty of them there.
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