2017 Four Continents Men FS

[Baron Vladimir]

My two cents on Nathan's PCS: my major problem with them isn't actually his SS score (though sure, if he gets the same SS as Patrick Chan from some judges, it loses all credibility) but that some judges gave him 9+ in composition. Because I continue to think the greatest detriment to his program is the front-loading. He has only one choreo sequence in between 8 jumping passes. It's the same reason why I can't quite care for Alina Zagitova's composition in her programs, with the opposite backloading. It's just not balanced enough for my aesthetics. But I guess that's why they're my aesthetics, I guess.

Composition is more related how the elements are placed on ice, regarding space and music structure, not so how they are placed regarding time (in terms of back loading and front loading). Program is balanced if the elements are placed in the way the all ice structure is used, and if more different type of jump elements, spins, transitions and other skating elements and body lines are used... Knowing that Marina is choreograph, probably score for CO could be high. Not so the other components mark in my opinion. I think with european judges on the panel, Chen PCS score with that skate would be 1 point lower in short, and 3 points lower in free... Saying that, i think he is still deserved winner of the competition...

 

[Sabrina]

I want to congratulate the winners! I was happy to see Nathan winning this competition. I am sorry for Yuzuru, as he really tried hard, but he knows very well that's not always enough. His popping cost him a lot. I would put Boyang ahead of Chan, as his GOE should be slightly higher. The same with Nam. He was lowballed in the SP, and kept with very low PCS, though the TES was above 90 in the FS. I also think Misha Ge's PCS were ridiculously low. He has on of the best programs in this competition, and he did his own choreography.
Though judging was better at this 4CC, I still think judges should be accountable for the marks they give.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

And the advantage of doing a 4S over a 3S is not really clear to you? I'll give you a hint: in short, it starts with a B, and ends with a V :yes:

Yeah, and if he falls then he loses points. And if he URs it (a great likelihood doing a quad in the latter part of a combination) he will get a BV reduction and negative GOE (affecting the whole combination).

Obviously there is a clear advantage to doing a 4S over a triple in terms of BV - but if you can't execute it or it's too risky (eg after a half loop in the second half of a program - and I reiterate, nobody has ever successfully done a combo with tacking on a quad) then the BV isn't worth it. A 4S gets more BV than a 3Z - so why doesn't Chan go for it in his SP? Because a cleaner pass instead is something he's more comfortable with and which is more feasible.

And, come on, right after doubling a quad salchow (not intentionally obviously) the plan is to then do a half loop and try the quad salchow again in that very same combination? I doubled the jump so let me risk another error by attempting that same jump - a quad, mind you - a split second later which I could stand to lose tons of points on. Note that when Hanyu played around with 2S-4S series he did it intentionally with the mindset of doing that combo, and certainly didn't do it after skating half a FS. By contrast, in his FS he was entering that jumping pass with the intention of doing a 4S+combo and erred by doubling it, and obviously didn't have the speed to execute a half loop 4S.

If his backup in doubling the quad was to do a half loop into a triple salchow, sure that is feasible (and even that isn't ideal because the GOE would be compromised on the combination for the doubled salchow, whereas putting the series on a later jumping pass like a well-executed 3A would garner more points). But I would wager the first time Hanyu lands a clean quad on the end of a combo will be because he originally intends it that way (ie it's his plan A ... Lys ) and not as a split second decision to make up for an error in the earlier part of that *very same* jumping pass.

Until skaters can execute quads out of nothingness and shift focus to adapt in a split second, I don't think anyone's backup plan from erring on a quad jump combo could feasibly be to tack on the same quad jump later on in the very same combination.

He thought about it for a moment but then obviously realised he didn't have the speed to attempt it - although really after doing the half loop he should have just put a triple salchow to get some points since he neglected to do a three jump combo later. After the 2S half loop, had he done an easy 3S, instead of his plan B (aka EMERGENCY PLAN A!!! ) of doing a 4S and then not even attempting it, he'd have his first 4CC title.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Yeah, and if he falls then he loses points. And if he URs it (a great likelihood doing a quad in the latter part of a combination) he will get a BV reduction and negative GOE (affecting the whole combination).

Obviously there is a clear advantage to doing a 4S over a triple in terms of BV - but if you can't execute it or it's too risky (eg after a half loop in the second half of a program - and I reiterate, nobody has ever successfully done a combo with tacking on a quad) then the BV isn't worth it. A 4S gets more BV than a 3Z - so why doesn't Chan go for it in his SP? Because a cleaner pass instead is something he's more comfortable with and which is more feasible.

And, come on, right after doubling a quad salchow (not intentionally obviously) the plan is to then do a half loop and try the quad salchow again in that very same combination? I doubled the jump so let me risk another error by attempting that same jump - a quad, mind you - a split second later which I could stand to lose tons of points on. Note that when Hanyu played around with 2S-4S series he did it intentionally with the mindset of doing that combo, and certainly didn't do it after skating half a FS. By contrast, in his FS he was entering that jumping pass with the intention of doing a 4S+combo and erred by doubling it, and obviously didn't have the speed to execute a half loop 4S.

If his backup in doubling the quad was to do a half loop into a triple salchow, sure that is feasible (and even that isn't ideal because the GOE would be compromised on the combination for the doubled salchow, whereas putting the series on a later jumping pass like a well-executed 3A would garner more points). But I would wager the first time Hanyu lands a clean quad on the end of a combo will be because he originally intends it that way (ie it's his plan A ... Lys ) and not as a split second decision to make up for an error in the earlier part of that *very same* jumping pass.

Until skaters can execute quads out of nothingness and shift focus to adapt in a split second, I don't think anyone's backup plan from erring on a quad jump combo could feasibly be to tack on the same quad jump later on in the very same combination.

He thought about it for a moment but then obviously realised he didn't have the speed to attempt it - although really after doing the half loop he should have just put a triple salchow to get some points since he neglected to do a three jump combo later. After the 2S half loop, had he done an easy 3S, instead of his plan B (aka EMERGENCY PLAN A!!! ) of doing a 4S and then not even attempting it, he'd have his first 4CC title.

I don't know what all that is necessary for. Yes it's very risky, you can think it's a dumb idea to try, but he said that's what he wanted to do. So why is there any argument? :confused2:
One correction though, I do think Yuzu sometimes (these days) tags a spontaneous 1/2Lo onto bad landings and tries different things then, the 4S too. It's the weird stuff he does these days in practice, apparently.

 

[daphenaxa]

Are you saying Shoma's skating skills and performance are as good as Chan? Because that's certainly not the case. And that empty program is not worth 9 for transition score.

https://youtu.be/ejYvNHLi4Ak?t=1m38s

https://youtu.be/ejYvNHLi4Ak?t=5m27s

https://youtu.be/ejYvNHLi4Ak?t=6m12s

https://youtu.be/tnS5D3IpE_s?t=6m28s

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't know what all that is necessary for. Yes it's very risky, you can think it's a dumb idea to try, but he said that's what he wanted to do. So why is there any argument? :confused2:
One correction though, I do think Yuzu sometimes (these days) tags a spontaneous 1/2Lo onto bad landings and tries different things then, the 4S too. It's the weird stuff he does these days in practice, apparently.

I was musing as to why a quad tacked on would be a backup when a) nobody has ever competed a quad-on-the-end-combo successfully or even attempted it, b) it's very risky, c) planning to do a two jump combo and switching to a half-loop series in case of an error is highly unorthodox, and d) as if a tail end quad is hard enough it is even harder to execute when you've just erred earlier in the combination... I can't think of anyone who pops a jump and then upgrades a latter part within the same combination to something exceedingly hard (eg a skater plans a 3L+2T+2L and if they double the 3L they don't immediately adjust it to something way harder like 2L+2T+3L; or a skater plans in their layout a 3A+2T and after singling the axel switches to a 1A+3T).

If he's doing that half loop experimentation though he needs to be careful that he actually tacks something onto the half loop (eg a 2F, a 2S, a 3S) or ensure he makes a future combo a three jump combo. Otherwise it's giving up even more points (and, in this case, cost him the win).

Question: why wasn't the half-loop marked as UR/<<? He landed it on his left foot after all. Isn't a half-loop only considered a 1L when a jump is added on after it?

 

[blue_idealist]

I am wondering if this 4ccs really is a sign that it is over for Chan who at his age really will find it hard to get more quads and the scoring system has no more room pc wise really for him. And Brown. Jason is a good olympic cycle younger but in this age where artistry or pcs are so close that the difference between him and Chen is relatively negligle he can't compete score wise. even with a quad toe that at best puts him equivalent to Chan who is still better pc wise. and he really isn't competitive (plus he isn't consistent on his jumps). Also, looking at the results there is hope or upswing from Boyang Shoma and Nathan. But not so good for Chan, Brown or Reynolds. With Nathan fimrly usa no. 1 there is no need for the usfa to hold up Brown. Zhou and Rippon who imho is a very fine pc skater are both capable, able to be above Brown. I kind of think poor Grant H gets forgotten. He impresses me - always solid. I am wondering if Canada is deep down thinking Nam may have more hope than Reynolds? I do think Nam needs to still mature as a skater, gain a lot more power and speed, and consistency on rotating thejumps which really has a lot to do with his extreme body changes.

Reynolds does have three quads, so if he doesn't make mistakes like he did yesterday, he can do pretty well. Nam can do better than Reynolds sometimes, as he has shown, but he's really a wild card with all his ups and downs in the past couple of years.

 

[MaiKatze]

https://youtu.be/ejYvNHLi4Ak?t=1m38s

https://youtu.be/ejYvNHLi4Ak?t=5m27s

https://youtu.be/ejYvNHLi4Ak?t=6m12s

https://youtu.be/tnS5D3IpE_s?t=6m28s

You shouldn't have posted these, daphenaxa. Don't you know that Shoma's bewitched the judges? The commentators of every station and channel? He's a magical loco leprechaun who has all of us blinded. In reality his skating skills are non-existant. He's just bad. And that's a fact. Us mere mortals cannot see, but some are immune to the Piantao. Their loss.

 

[Lambari]

I was musing as to why a quad tacked on would be a backup when a) nobody has ever competed a quad-on-the-end-combo successfully or even attempted it, b) it's very risky, c) planning to do a two jump combo and switching to a half-loop series in case of an error is highly unorthodox, and d) as if a tail end quad is hard enough it is even harder to execute when you've just erred earlier in the combination... I can't think of anyone who pops a jump and then upgrades a latter part within the same combination to something exceedingly hard (eg a skater plans a 3L+2T+2L and if they double the 3L they don't immediately adjust it to something way harder like 2L+2T+3L; or a skater plans in their layout a 3A+2T and after singling the axel switches to a 1A+3T).

If he's doing that half loop experimentation though he needs to be careful that he actually tacks something onto the half loop (eg a 2F, a 2S, a 3S) or ensure he makes a future combo a three jump combo. Otherwise it's giving up even more points (and, in this case, cost him the win).

Question: why wasn't the half-loop marked as UR/<<? He landed it on his left foot after all. Isn't a half-loop only considered a 1L when a jump is added on after it?

He's just having some extreme (!!) fascination with 1Lo sequences lately. We just have to live with it.

 

[xeyra]

Composition is more related how the elements are placed on ice, regarding space and music structure, not so how they are placed regarding time (in terms of back loading and front loading). Program is balanced if the elements are placed in the way the all ice structure is used, and if more different type of jump elements, spins, transitions and other skating elements and body lines are used... Knowing that Marina is choreograph, probably score for CO could be high. Not so the other components mark in my opinion. I think with european judges on the panel, Chen PCS score with that skate would be 1 point lower in short, and 3 points lower in free... Saying that, i think he is still deserved winner of the competition...

Thanks for clarifying. I thought that it also related to the way a program was structured but I guess it's more related to the music than how the elements are balanced throughout the program. And if there's something to be said about Nathan's FC is that the front-loaded quads are really fitting to how epic that music is at the beginning. However, I shall remain steadfast in my preference for some breathing room between jumps, though I am sure Nathan and Raf understand this for his Olympic program, especially because the bonus points on second half quads can be very important.

 

[karne]

Random thoughts after finally catching up with the men's FS event after lunch. Trying to get these out of the way when it is still fresh on my mind.

I have real mixed feeling about this event having seen the protocols first and then check out the competition in no particular order.

As per usual PCS is kind of all over the place, several times I ends up goes, oh really after checking the score sheet again? The ranking kind of make sense if this is a quad fest, but according to figure skating sports guidelines, it gets murky.

IMO Top 3 were all over marked in PCS. If Patrick Chan can be used as a benchmark for PCS at 91, then everyone should be under 90. Unless of course, you count this 'unofficial quad bonus' into the equation.

I love Yuzu to death but other than his extraordinary TES, the performance feels lacking compare to his last outing. It was methodical and rather clinical (assassin like), even a bit tight in place. He was not emotional or intellectually inspired or invested like his previous outing.

Nathen, POW WOW TES (Mededeva like in his consistency now), but not as good as his US outing or as inspired as his SP this round. 88 PCS 3+ above Jason Brown this time round?

I have been tough on Jason in the past because of the many 'gifts' he has received over the years, but this time his FS was stunning. This is perhaps his best FS outing by far, it was nuanced, intricate and thank goodness much improved musically. It was not the movement for movement's sake unlike before. It deserves higher PCS than 85, at least an 88, or higher than Chen. Shoma 91 is crazy, only 1.5 from Patrick after a bit of a disaster and off 2nd half? I vastly prever his SP to his long.

As much as people complain about Boyang, for goodness sake, he only received 77. Grant may be generally undermarked in PCS, but don't blame Boyang for this, it is what you get for a US #5 or 6 status.

While poor Nam must have seriously pissed off someone in the inner circle to get bogged down for a PCS of 72 like some ridiculous no-name newbie from no federation like poor Julian from Malaysia, surely deserve higher than 67 after putting that enjoyable energised FS, not even 70? He actually went all out and attack his programs and his SS is clearly underated.

Since we generally seem to be in agreement, I was wondering what you thought about Brendan's PCS for the FS? He got 72.

 

[chuckm]

Reynolds does have three quads, so if he doesn't make mistakes like he did yesterday, he can do pretty well. Nam can do better than Reynolds sometimes, as he has shown, but he's really a wild card with all his ups and downs in the past couple of years.

Reynolds' quads are at the mercy of the caller. At 4CC, in the SP his 4s was UR but he got credit for a rotated 4t; in the FS, all 3 quads and the 3a were UR.

Reynolds is 26 and a UR tendency is hard to change. OTOH, Nam is only 18 and IMO we haven't seen the best of his skating yet.

 

[wookchub]

Points a, b, c, and d are all pretty much irrelevant because it's Yuzuru. He could do what his whole fan fest has been screaming about and just change the original planned 4S-combo, but he won't. So of course his back-up is a 2S-Lo-4S and failing that hail-mary unplanned quads/triple axels.

 

[da96103]

I thought post-event argument would be Yuzu v Nathan. But now it turns out to be Yuzu v Yuzu.

 

[TontoK]

Reynolds' quads are at the mercy of the caller. At 4CC, in the SP his 4s was UR but he got credit for a rotated 4t; in the FS, all 3 quads and the 3a were UR.

Reynolds is 26 and a UR tendency is hard to change. OTOH, Nam is only 18 and IMO we haven't seen the best of his skating yet.

I haven't really examined the programs or protocols.

Are the rotations and UR calls legit? Were the jumps borderline and could have gone either way?

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "mercy of the caller."

 

[KatGrace1925]

I thought post-event argument would be Yuzu v Nathan. But now it turns out to be Yuzu v Yuzu.

I want to see Yuzu beat Yuzu's records. That would be fun.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I thought post-event argument would be Yuzu v Nathan. But now it turns out to be Yuzu v Yuzu.

Yeah it's kinda trivializing Nathan's victory or dismissing it as Yuzu not skating his best. And while some are saying that Yuzu's okay because one less popped quad and he would have won. Well, Nathan still left room for improvement in the FS on some of his landings, so he could have pulled higher as well. And if Nathan replicates this performance at Worlds, he's sure to crack 90 PCS and minimize the advantage Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan have in that department.

In this Yuzu vs Chen debate people are also forgetting about Uno and his 100-plus SP and could have definitely cracked 200 with his axels, only doing one combo and leaving out a 3F. He is a silent threat and is still definitely in the World medal hunt, maybe even gold if he skates to his potential.

 

[chuckm]

I haven't really examined the programs or protocols.

Are the rotations and UR calls legit? Were the jumps borderline and could have gone either way?

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "mercy of the caller."

Some callers are stricter than others. At Skate Canada, Kevin got one UR on a quad in the SP and one UR on a fall on a quad in the FS. At Nepela, he got one UR on a quad in the SP and URs on 2 quads in the FS.

 

[ranran]

Yeah, and if he falls then he loses points. And if he URs it (a great likelihood doing a quad in the latter part of a combination) he will get a BV reduction and negative GOE (affecting the whole combination).

Obviously there is a clear advantage to doing a 4S over a triple in terms of BV - but if you can't execute it or it's too risky (eg after a half loop in the second half of a program - and I reiterate, nobody has ever successfully done a combo with tacking on a quad) then the BV isn't worth it. A 4S gets more BV than a 3Z - so why doesn't Chan go for it in his SP? Because a cleaner pass instead is something he's more comfortable with and which is more feasible.

And, come on, right after doubling a quad salchow (not intentionally obviously) the plan is to then do a half loop and try the quad salchow again in that very same combination? I doubled the jump so let me risk another error by attempting that same jump - a quad, mind you - a split second later which I could stand to lose tons of points on. Note that when Hanyu played around with 2S-4S series he did it intentionally with the mindset of doing that combo, and certainly didn't do it after skating half a FS. By contrast, in his FS he was entering that jumping pass with the intention of doing a 4S+combo and erred by doubling it, and obviously didn't have the speed to execute a half loop 4S.

If his backup in doubling the quad was to do a half loop into a triple salchow, sure that is feasible (and even that isn't ideal because the GOE would be compromised on the combination for the doubled salchow, whereas putting the series on a later jumping pass like a well-executed 3A would garner more points). But I would wager the first time Hanyu lands a clean quad on the end of a combo will be because he originally intends it that way (ie it's his plan A ... Lys ) and not as a split second decision to make up for an error in the earlier part of that *very same* jumping pass.

Until skaters can execute quads out of nothingness and shift focus to adapt in a split second, I don't think anyone's backup plan from erring on a quad jump combo could feasibly be to tack on the same quad jump later on in the very same combination.

He thought about it for a moment but then obviously realised he didn't have the speed to attempt it - although really after doing the half loop he should have just put a triple salchow to get some points since he neglected to do a three jump combo later. After the 2S half loop, had he done an easy 3S, instead of his plan B (aka EMERGENCY PLAN A!!! ) of doing a 4S and then not even attempting it, he'd have his first 4CC title.

Sorry to butt in~ but I think what is thought possible or impossible in Yuzuru's head during the competition does not compared to what we see and thought is possible or impossible from our couch. His train of thoughts is obviously much different than yours.

Bolded part: reminds me of Criminal Minds episode where it said just because nobody does it before doesn't mean the idea is impossible.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Sorry to butt in~ but I think what is thought possible or impossible in Yuzuru's head during the competition does not compared to what we see and thought is possible or impossible from our couch. His train of thoughts is obviously much different than yours.

Bolded part: reminds me of Criminal Minds episode where it said just because nobody does it before doesn't mean the idea is impossible.

He can choose whatever layout he wants but I think we are all free to point out our thoughts on the layout. I'm certainly not the first person to post that it's imprudent to keep doing the second half 4S given his inconsistency. But when he says the backup in case he pops the 4S is to shift gears from a combo to a half loop series with a *4S* on the end of it (especially when his 4S has been quite inconsistent this season) I think it's fair to say that is an ambitious plan B. Generally a plan B means going to something more manageable - like swapping a 3Z for a quad ... Not adding in a 4S (which you just popped a second earlier) onto the end of the very same series in one breath.