2018 Europeans Ladies FS

[singerskates]

There are skaters, judges, and officials who have been here and even posted, it's not just a "fan board". I post here because I like having a centralized place to talk about skating, with anyone in the world. Information should be shared and better understood by all. My name is Tim Gerber, I'm a former skater who trained as a tech specialist and choreographer. I've worked with people inside (and outside) the ISU for many years at creating reforms to ice skating and changes to the scoring system. I can link you to some reading material if you'd like, I'm also doing an interview with NBC for this upcoming Olympics.



She did barely more than 2 rotations in the air, exactly provable by the footage. That's not "the way I see it", it's something anyone can see if they want to look closely. Such a thing should not be considered a sufficiently rotated Triple. I was able to spot the problem in real-time too, the shape of the jump is simply wrong in motion, it visibly looks short.



Her toe doesn't take off at 185 degrees, it's past that, nor is my scientific analysis of her jumps the result of disliking her. I've applied this exact analysis to everyone for over a decade now, including people I like. You don't seem to be looking or listening, only ignoring.

5 degrees of rotation can make all the difference in calling something underrotated or not, tech panels have to make these calls exactly as close as they can. If something is 5 degrees short of the rotation mark (and let's assume for a moment that a jump had the exact allowable amount of pre-rotation), it has to be called, that's just the rule. You defend this all the time, so stop being so hypocritical. Underrotations aren't 100% verifiable in every instance in real time and it does get annoying at times to laser focus in on the jump rotations, but fair is fair and there needs to be a clear and accurate system.

It would rarely be a big a deal anyway if the jumps were actually judged well; a visibly borderline jump that doesn't get the underrotation call should be given -1 less in the total GOE, whereas a jump that does get the underrotation call shouldn't be given any further GOE penalty. This way the points would be closer in the end and the tech panel deciding which way to make the call would not be such an all-consuming thing.



Incorrect, there ARE tech specialists and others involved with skating who care, and even if 0 people who were chosen to judge at competitions were aware of it or cared, that doesn't mean it's how things should be.

Actual skaters who have better technique certainly do care and would care that they are not getting they credit they deserve. As someone who did Triple jumps and tried varying techniques, it is definitely easier to do a jump by pre-rotating around on the toepick and then doing less actual rotation in the air. People should not be getting the same amount of credit for a jump that blatantly takes less effort to execute and becomes easier to control because of the lesser amount of rotation that is being executed by the skater. That is exactly why a Triple jump is worth more than a Double jump or a Triple Lutz worth more than a Triple Toe, because the varying levels of difficulty on the rotation or takeoff is being credited.



You've tried this false snark before and I'm getting tired of it. The work I did in 2014 (and prior to that and since then) has created actual changes to the scoring system. No rational person would consider that inconsequential.

I keep forgetting to do any prerotation at all and I can tell you, it's not so easy to eek out 1 rotation on a jump with no prerotation at all as an Adult On-set Skater. My coach keeps trying to get me to prorotate a little bit and I can't wait to jump. Currently, I'm jumping the Waltz jump to 1 Lutz jump. I've only once done an Axel by accident, only because I was mad that my coach had me doing so many Waltz jumps. The only double jump I've ever was doing was the double Salchow, 14 years, illnesses and work place injuries ago, and like my other jumps, I either did not prerotate or barely prerotated. I had a lot of falls on that double Salchow because I had trouble doing any type of prerotation.

 

[singerskates]

That doesn't establish your superior knowledge. IJS has been around for over 10 years now. It isn't rocket science. You have your favorites; so do others. That makes you a fan just like everyone else.

Blades Of Passion, somehow they didn't read your post about your experience.

 

[OS]

I hope they come out with something fresh each season. Ballerinas and magpies this year, something completely off the wall next.

Alina: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/8c/b4/55/8cb45519da7b1ad4bbdec788428187b4.jpg

Magpies: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net..._jeckle.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140617040224

I kind of like the war paint, goth look, something like

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/mp/swspZuEkWK0l.jpg

Looks fierce, she's a gorgeous baby girl can carry it off without it looking too scary. But it is not like she needs anymore PCS : laugh:

Mind you, her Exhibition package already displays some voodoo magic on the ISU judges.

The problem is that these young skaters like Zagitova, upon earning these marks, think that they have hit some kind of artistic and SS ceiling. I actually believe that with some proper ballet training and an international coach (like Orser) + good choreography Zagitova could become a much more refined and expressive skater. Instead, the judges' scores are telling her that there is literally nothing she needs to do to improve...

Totally agree with this. I wish Evegenia would have improved a lot more as a 3-years veteran, but really, there's not that much motivation to do other than ensure consistency, and build a package that kind of compensate her early Juniorish presentation. There's no one choreographic moment, or performance element that made me go wow. Now ISU judges are actually reinforced this by having a 2-year junior gymnastic program displaying none of the PCS qualities traditional Senior ladies program and performancer need to establish and develop. By rewarding gimmicky repeated programs, it is setting a new standard of artistic low.

 

[lavoix]

I kind of like the war paint, goth look, something like

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/mp/swspZuEkWK0l.jpg

Looks fierce, she's a gorgeous baby girl can carry it off without it looking too scary. But it is not like she needs anymore PCS : laugh:

Mind you, her Exhibition package already displays some voodoo magic on the ISU judges.



Totally agree with this. I wish Evegenia would have improved a lot more as a 3-years veteran, but really, there's not that much motivation to do other than ensure consistency, and build a package that kind of compensate her early Juniorish presentation. There's no one choreographic moment, or performance element that made me go wow. Now ISU judges are actually reinforced this by having a 2-year junior gymnastic program displaying none of the PCS qualities traditional Senior ladies program and performancer need to establish and develop. By rewarding gimmicky repeated programs, it is setting a new standard of artistic low.

Why the F would anyone go to Orser, he does nothing for his girls. I think Alina and Evghenia display very unique artistry on the ice, compared to any North American.

 

[chopinskate]

Such harsh hate for Alina, her costume, etc. - come on! She's 15 years old and I find both of her programs fabulous technically AND artistically. All you splitting hairs about ballet and "ballet poses" and how to translate it yo ice, have you actually ever SEEN Kitri variations? This was a perfect interpretation of the ballet.

Yes, I've watched it. What's your point?

And I'm not hating on Alina. She has issues to fix, like most, or rather all, skaters at the age of 15 do.

 

[largeman]

I’ve just started catching up.

Alina Zagitova : Sorry ...I don’t watch this program anymore unless it’s on a live feed. I’ve seen it too many times. Looking forward to seeing her SP though when time permits.

Caro: This was a hot mess. I feel for the few judges who had to go all the way from perfect 10’s down to 9.75. Must be heartbreaking for them.

Wait, Sam, did you forget your theory that Caro's PCS goes up and then up again with every pop, stumble and mistake...

As for Alina, I recommend that you watch this performance even though you've seen it many times... It was better than before

 

[Blades of Passion]

That doesn't establish your superior knowledge.

Yes it does. You were trying to make a statement that fans understand less than judges and that everyone here is merely a "fan". You are incorrect about that, as is your statement about my technical analysis being nothing more "I have my favorites". Please don't make that insinuation again.

 

[skylark]

She should go to Sandra Bezic to have choreography done. People have already mentioned her similarities to Tara Lipinski and when Tara was criticized for being robotic and not extending, she went to a ballet teacher for help with her extension and Sandra for choreography. Whether or not you think Tara deserved gold in Nagano, its hard to say she didn't improve artistically in her Olympic season.

I think that is a brilliant idea. Bezic said recently in an interview that her approach was not to try to "make" a skater more artistic, but to create a safe environment where she could see and develop the skater to be more of herself/himself.... because that's where the magic is. (not verbatim, but something like that).

With Alina's incredible jumps and technique, if her artistry from within could be developed, it would be terrific. In fact, that's my biggest issue with Alina, that nothing seems to be coming from inside herself or from real feeling for the music.

hmmm. I can't really see Eteri sending her to Bezic, though.

 

[OS]

Why the F would anyone go to Orser, he does nothing for his girls. I think Alina and Evghenia display very unique artistry on the ice, compared to any North American.

?

Where did Orser come from?

 

[Crossover]

I hope they come out with something fresh each season. Ballerinas and magpies this year, something completely off the wall next.

Alina: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/8c/b4/55/8cb45519da7b1ad4bbdec788428187b4.jpg

Magpies: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net..._jeckle.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140617040224

She can save the "magpie" costume for shows later, skating to something like this. https://youtu.be/UjDXNqG0Deg?t=19s

Rossini's La gazza ladra overture I've seen some male skater using that music for his program.

 

[Artistry]

I am not sure I agree with whoever says Alina's program has no choreography. She skates with Don Quixote Grand Pas de deux. As all classic pas de deux it starts with slow motions, pirouettes and slow spins and end with fast circular jumping by male dancer and 32 fouette by female dancer. This is a perfect music choice and choreography for backloaded program, and Alina interpretation and execution was spot on (minus male parter )

Exactly! I've been saying this, but seemingly nobody cares.

 

[begin]

Actually a lot of balletic poses have been adopted into figure skating. Charlotte is forward penche, Ina Bauer is cambre in 4th position, attitude, split jump is grand jete, etc. So ballet has been incorporated into figure skating language for a long time and no, not ridiculous at all to figure skate to a ballet program. Of all people, the Russians are the ones I would least doubt about knowledge and mastery of ballet vocabulary.

As you said, those moves have been incorporated very thoroughly into the sport for years. They are figure skating moves in their own right.

You know that's not what I'm talking about w Alina. And if you're implying that Russian skaters are inherently better at ballet? Miss me with that.

Such harsh hate for Alina, her costume, etc. - come on! She's 15 years old and I find both of her programs fabulous technically AND artistically. All you splitting hairs about ballet and "ballet poses" and how to translate it yo ice, have you actually ever SEEN Kitri variations? This was a perfect interpretation of the ballet.

Said 15 year old is being represented as one of the greatest artistic skaters of all time. It's stupid. We're gonna keep talking about how and why it's stupid.

 

[Putina]

There are skaters, judges, and officials who have been here and even posted, it's not just a "fan board". I post here because I like having a centralized place to talk about skating, with anyone in the world. Information should be shared and better understood by all. My name is Tim Gerber, I'm a former skater who trained as a tech specialist and choreographer. I've worked with people inside (and outside) the ISU for many years at creating reforms to ice skating and changes to the scoring system. I can link you to some reading material if you'd like, I'm also doing an interview with NBC for this upcoming Olympics.

No wonder you are so knowledgeable and thorough. I have been enjoying your posts. Having said that it was totally unnecessary to give dignified answers to trolls, IMO. But I guess you are a better person than I am and have more optimistic outlook in humanity. I salute you and thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights.

 

[Putina]

That doesn't establish your superior knowledge. IJS has been around for over 10 years now. It isn't rocket science. You have your favorites; so do others. That makes you a fan just like everyone else.

See this is why Blades of Passion should not have bothered to respond to jenaj in the first place. You initially asked for BoP's credentials in your feeble attempt to discredit him, yet when you received a thoughtful and overly generous (IMO) response from Blades of Passion, you simply move the goal posts as if your previous posts meant nothing (why did you ask for his credentials?). Why should anyone engage you? I have seen this behavior of yours (and many others) many times on this board. It is trolling, period, and you should stop.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Said 15 year old is being represented as one of the greatest artistic skaters of all time. It's stupid. We're gonna keep talking about how and why it's stupid.

Hmm...I don’t really look at the second mark as being an artistic mark. To me it’s relating the technical moves in the field to the music. I’m actually pretty happy to see the trend of the sport moving away from the 6.0 days and more towards an athletic endevour. YMMV but the less subjective the better for me. Love Caro but seeing her bad performances held up with high PCS is really triggering me a bit. I love the girl but when she is off the numbers need to reflect it. People out perform her and the marks often don’t reflect it but rather stay pretty consistent. The TES can drop pretty drastically for bad performances but often not the PCS. It’s clearly time to reduce it’s influence and the ISU seems to recognize this and has begun slowly erasing the “artistic” aspect of it.

Maybe if they started awarding medals for Gala performances people would be happier.

 

[frallik]

Exactly! I've been saying this, but seemingly nobody cares.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmh6N7khs8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmh6N7khs8[/URL]

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

My name is Tim Gerber, I'm a former skater who trained as a tech specialist and choreographer. I've worked with people inside (and outside) the ISU for many years at creating reforms to ice skating and changes to the scoring system. I can link you to some reading material if you'd like, I'm also doing an interview with NBC for this upcoming Olympics.

5 degrees of rotation can make all the difference in calling something underrotated or not, tech panels have to make these calls exactly as close as they can. If something is 5 degrees short of the rotation mark (and let's assume for a moment that a jump had the exact allowable amount of pre-rotation), it has to be called, that's just the rule. You defend this all the time, so stop being so hypocritical. Underrotations aren't 100% verifiable in every instance in real time and it does get annoying at times to laser focus in on the jump rotations, but fair is fair and there needs to be a clear and accurate system.

Actual skaters who have better technique certainly do care and would care that they are not getting they credit they deserve. As someone who did Triple jumps and tried varying techniques, it is definitely easier to do a jump by pre-rotating around on the toepick and then doing less actual rotation in the air. People should not be getting the same amount of credit for a jump that blatantly takes less effort to execute and becomes easier to control because of the lesser amount of rotation that is being executed by the skater. That is exactly why a Triple jump is worth more than a Double jump or a Triple Lutz worth more than a Triple Toe, because the varying levels of difficulty on the



You've tried this false snark before and I'm getting tired of it. The work I did in 2014 (and prior to that and since then) has created actual changes to the scoring system. No rational person would consider that inconsequential.

There are not specific rules for pre-rotation as far as degrees of rotation the way landings are specified. People assume that it is synonymous with a cheated takeoff when, for example, a toe axel is different than a pre-rotated 3T. Just that statement about a cheated takeoff which is primarily applied to toe axels where the skater picks their foot in facing forwards versus a skater picking in backwards and turning on the ice so it ends up facing forwards at moment of takeoff (which many skaters, especially ladies do) - and obviously tech specialists are more lenient about pre rotation on the ice, and are only harsh if the skater literally makes an attempt to take off placing the foot forward.

And you say 180 degrees is allowed, but - by definition - 180 means the skater is facing forwards on takeoff and thus any 180 degree takeoff is cheated then according to IJS rules and a downgrade should be applied. Obviously we know this isn't the case and we know any skaters' take off point can indeed be forwards especially in jumps like the salchow - this seems contradictory to the "forwards takeoff" deduction rule. The rules are gray, and skaters are given benefit of the doubt. Only if they are like a Meissner or Nguyen are the judges actually scrutinizing that.

You making calls based on your opinion or your own unique "scientific" process is fine, as your opinion is something you're definitely entitled to. But it's just one of many opinions. And it's so weird because for each staunch condemnation of URs not called you seem to negate it defending skaters like Murakami and Karen's URs. So there's a distinct lack of consistency and that is probably attributable to inevitable bias that we all have. You think Karen's jumps are "fine" and Medvedeva's jumps are UR and yet there are a dozen protocols from varying tech specialists that disagree with you --- like the European ladies' FS. And then exclaim everyone must be wrong except you, and the ISU doesn't know how to train it's tech specialists .... but then you talk about how you've taken tech spec courses and ISU seminars.

So I'm confused.... what are we supposed do then? Dismiss ISU courses and teachings as faulty and negligible ..... or acknowledge your proclaimed superiority to us because you've taken said courses? It's ironic you purport that it somehow bestows upon you additional clout over the rest of us that you've been to ISU workshops or whatever and have created actual changes - and yet you slam the very system and seminars that supposedly give you "forum cred" to claim superiority over others. You don't know the story of every member of this forum and what they have or haven't done to learn this sport, and even a newbie to this forum and the sport can still make useful contributions.

And not to give you an even higher soapbox to look down at us from, but I would love to know what actual, *concrete* changes you have been instrumental in (plus receipts).... because, really, anyone could claim that they were responsible for scoring system changes. What specific changes did you enact? What is the evidence of your proposed change and the resultant effect? Because so far the only thing I've seen is your Sotnikova rant and that hasn't amounted to any reversal of that decision or resultant system changes. She still has her gold, and the system is still flawed so I am not sure what so-called changes your work resulted in.

Anyone could also assert that they have "trained as a tech specialist" and worked as a choreographer. But we ain't no Shin Amano or Lori Nichol... have you been hired to be an actual technical specialist on an actual panel and acted as one, or have you choreographed for any elite skater? (Because I've helped choreograph juvenile-level and adult-level freeskates... doesn't make me Sandra Bezic, lol!)

Also let us know when your NBC interview will be aired - just want to make sure we all know when to PVR it.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmh6N7khs8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmh6N7khs8[/URL]

Your link got messed up so I’m reposting it below. Thanks for sharing this with us...it’s very interesting and well performed. It definitely adds perspective to the discussion.

Link 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmh6N7khs8

 

[kevinVchicago]

Alina Zagitova : Sorry ...I don’t watch this program anymore unless it’s on a live feed. I’ve seen it too many times. Looking forward to seeing her SP though when time permits.

It was reeeeeeeeeally good on Saturday, though. IJS

Caro: This was a hot mess. I feel for the few judges who had to go all the way from perfect 10’s down to 9.75. Must be heartbreaking for them.

HAHAHA

 

[3T3T]

I thought Med and Zagitova were both outstanding. I think it was the best I have seen Zag skate, the lutz/loop combo was brilliant. I have grown to really enjoy this programme and when she is, on like yesterday, it is a thrilling watch. It’s going to be tough for Med to beat her if she skates clean. However, I still think she is vulnerable in the short.

It was a great comeback after injury for Med. The 2A looks a bit wonky atm, but she has time to sort it. She is a great competitor, it must have been tough for her to skate after Zagitova. What impressed me more was how her reaction afterwards, gracious and sporting. She is under pressure for PyeongChang but I have no doubt she can handle it. I’m not sure how I would feel if she lost the gold after leading the charge for the last two seasons.

Kostner was a disaster. The outfit was horrendous. What surprised me was once the 3lutz was gone she lost all focus. It was a very disappointing performance. Totally overmarked on PCS and gifted the bronze, undeservedly. I wonder should she just dump the lutz and focus on doing everything else clean? Sotskova was robbed. I felt she was undermarked on PCS in both programmes. Probably didn’t skate her best here but I would still have her above Kostner.

I was very surprised with Lorena, a really enjoyable performance, it built to a great end. I hope she can build on this. I was looking forward to seeing Ostlund but she had a nightmare. I also enjoyed Rajicova and Paganini. Russo gave a nice performance but the lack of technical held her back.