Does a piece of music 'belong' to a favourite skater?

[noskates]

I think Kurt Browning was the first to skate to Blues for Klook. Was trying to research that but couldn't find it. I have to admit that when I see and hear anyone skating to Bolero I think it's a travesty. Does the music belong to the skater? Probably not, but some pieces of music are so aligned with wonderful performances that it's hard to see anyone else skate to them. I saw the video of Robin Cousins skating to Impossible Dream but personally feel Jason's performance surpassed it. That may be heresy to some but..... Can you imagine anyone other than Nathan skating to Rocket Man? I also think Michelle Kwan's East of Eden is iconic. Or Kurt's Casablanca?

Surprise surprise - Lucinda Ruh (whaaaaaaaaaaat?) skated to Blues for Klook.

As for Yagudin, I agree that you don't have to like him as a person but I have great respect for his skating and Winter and Gladiator will always remain in my mind as Alexi's.

 

[labgoat]

Now that you show it... I remember Usova-Zhulin's... but not Vlascenko's. Though I do remember him. So whose is more iconic then?

I’d have to say Usova/Zhulin’s. Others have tried to copy it and often imitated parts of it. The part that looks like a choreo sequence was widely imitated if I recall correctly.

 

[mikeko666]

Poeta will always be associated with Stephane.

Stephane Lambiel 2007 Worlds Free Skate HD 720p

youtu.be

 

[snowed]

As Bolero was mentioned several times I thought about Carolina Kostner

2014 Olympics - Carolina Kostner FS/LP (ÐоÑÑÐ½ÐµÑ ÐаÑолина / ã«ããªã¼ãã»ã³ã¹ããã¼)

Carolina Kostner's free skate at the 2014 Olympics in Sochi. Long program : Bolero - Ravel

www.youtube.com

 

[Mathman]

As Bolero was mentioned several times I thought about Carolina Kostner

2014 Olympics - Carolina Kostner FS/LP (ÐоÑÑÐ½ÐµÑ ÐаÑолина / ã«ããªã¼ãã»ã³ã¹ããã¼)

Carolina Kostner's free skate at the 2014 Olympics in Sochi. Long program : Bolero - Ravel

www.youtube.com

Great performance. But I wonder how many viewers had the reaction, Wow, she really did well with that Torvill and Dean music.

Michelle Kwan tried Bolero and even hired Christopher Dean to choreograph it. In the end she pretty much gutted Dean's choreography as something she could not get comfortable with. The result was, in fact, not a success. (Michelle was nearing the end of her career by that time anyway.)

 

[katymay]

Another way to put it; "When I hear piece of music X, I want to watch Y's program to this music again.
Bolero: Torvil and Dean
Don Quixote- Alina
Kill Bill-Trusova
Riverdance: Jason Brown
Gnossiennes: Anya Shcherbakova
In memoriam -Valieva
I am a Woman-Kaori

Everyone can skate to R and J, Carmen, Muse-
But just like in the NFL, certain iconic pieces maybe should be 'retired', as hearing the music only makes you think of another skater. Even if Alina Gorbecheva's version of Cruella is actually better than Trusova's version, I found myself just wanting to see Sasha's version again on You Tube. So in the sense, some skaters 'own' the music.

 

[Blades of Passion]

As Bolero was mentioned several times I thought about Carolina Kostner

2014 Olympics - Carolina Kostner FS/LP (ÐоÑÑÐ½ÐµÑ ÐаÑолина / ã«ããªã¼ãã»ã³ã¹ããã¼)

Carolina Kostner's free skate at the 2014 Olympics in Sochi. Long program : Bolero - Ravel

www.youtube.com

2013 Worlds = best version! The choreography sequence element in that program was never as good as it should have been though. She did a wonderful back spiral in her Scheherazade program at the start of the Olympic season, it should have been included in the Bolero program - https://youtu.be/Vpkf4yyYhd4&t=4m20s (this program is garbage aside from that spiral, lol)

Michelle Kwan tried Bolero and even hired Christopher Dean to choreograph it. In the end she pretty much gutted Dean's choreography as something she could not get comfortable with. The result was, in fact, not a success.

Kwan's first performance of Bolero (2004 Campbells) was a success, later attempts were not as good, because of deteriorating health and competition pressure, and trying to adapt to an entirely new scoring system. It was probably never going to be one of her absolute best programs, but if she had been able to develop it to potential I think it could have been great. The idea of "Michelle is more sophisticated than everyone else, this music will allow her to show that off" had merit.

 

[el henry]

Another way to put it; "When I hear piece of music X, I want to watch Y's program to this music again.
Bolero: Torvil and Dean
Don Quixote- Alina
Kill Bill-Trusova
Riverdance: Jason Brown
Gnossiennes: Anya Shcherbakova
In memoriam -Valieva
I am a Woman-Kaori

Everyone can skate to R and J, Carmen, Muse-
But just like in the NFL, certain iconic pieces maybe should be 'retired', as hearing the music only makes you think of another skater. Even if Alina Gorbecheva's version of Cruella is actually better than Trusova's version, I found myself just wanting to see Sasha's version again on You Tube. So in the sense, some skaters 'own' the music.

I love this way of phrasing the question. Some of the specific performances by the ladies I don’t know, and hearing Don Quixote makes me want to watch John Curry again, but the concept is great.

 

[sadya]

Perhaps music almost "belonging" to certain skaters should have a different criteria, that even people who don't follow the sport that well or a certain discipline of that sport that well, also know that program, that it then is deemed so iconic that that music belongs to that skater?

When I was a teenager, nobody in my family followed skating. Torvill and Dean recently ended their 94 Olympic season and were more popular than ever. My cousin from Britain was staying with us (in the Netherlands). I had a book about skating and when she saw their picture, she recognized them:"Hey, aren't those b******s Torvill and Dean? They were amazing!" She saw them once on telly and that was it.
Is a program really iconic when people who don't follow the sport or only watch the Olympics recognize its greatness?

Or are we as fans better equipped to recognize greatness? After all, we probably know more about the sport. People who don't really follow FS here, didn't know Gordeeva and Grinkov even after the Olympics, Baiul they only recognized when I mentioned The Swan and her Olympic lp. "Oh the crying orphan, wasn't her knee broken by a jealous American?" one of them asked.

My children recognize Hanyu because of social media. And some other skaters when their work is shared beyond the FS community. When that happens with an iconic program, like that of Riverdance by Brown, would that be more iconic than that of other amazing performances who aren't recognized/shared outside the FS community?

What really does make a program so iconic, that a piece of music "belongs" to that skater?


Personally, I also think of great performances I enjoyed, when I hear certain music. Even when I'm not watching skating. I do like to see what other skaters bring to the table, you never know that someone happens to have an iconic performance too:
- 4 seasons for years belonged to Bonaly in my mind. No she wasn't a perfect skater but I liked her energy and speed and she did some elements even in combinations others didn't (I have a memory of her doing a split-triple-triple, or am I remembering wrong?)
Then along came Chan and his 2013 TEB performance, now that is my favourite 4 seasons program of all time. Yet many skaters would say 4 seasons belonged to Usova/Zhulin in 1992. Well, I only 'discovered' FS in 1994, it would take many years and online communities who sold videotapes of skating and when the net was better developed, shared online skating files for me to watch FS before 1994. Till then, all I had were books and documentaries. After having seen many many programs since 1994, Chan still has the best 4 seasons performance of all time as far as I'm concerned (and this is perhaps the first time I dare to write this down in public, but I would have loved to have his program as an Olympic gold program, it was my favourite program of that season).

- East of Eden, of course for years Kwan, couldn't imagine anyone else skating to that music. Flatt gave it a try and had a decent performance. Nobody came close to Kwan however until Machida had his 2013-2014 SP. Ever since that season, his is my favourite EOE program of all time. Enjoyed the efforts of Bell and Gold though (hm, Bell and Gold, why does that sound like a band name or a tv series name?).

- Bolero really belonged to Torvill and Dean. To this day when I say I watch skating, especially the older generations of non skating fans even in the Netherlands will recognize them, not all of them, but still a decent number of people will.
However, since Kostner skated her FS in 2013 to Bolero, hers has been my favourite performance (and in my mind she was the true 2014 Olympic Champion). My favourite performances of her Bolero are from 2013. Liked Valieva, but not more than that program of Kostner, can't remember who did her choreography.

Bolero is one of the pieces I am really tired of hearing, I'm always disappointed when people skate to this, not because of other iconic performances, but because I heard it too often and to be honest, am bored by this music, amazing as it is. So when a skater makes me enjoy this music again, that is truly a great skater (with Kostner skating to it, I even discovered new details in the music and began listening to it more attentively instead of sighing and whining 'no not that music agaaaain, please let it be over soon, where is the mute button').

So if nobody would skate to music that "belongs" to other skaters, then there won't be a chance of someone else creating another masterpiece to that music. I wouldn't want to miss Machida's EOE of Kostner's Bolero.

That said (yes I'm not done yet ), music that belongs to certain skaters can become distracting too. In 2010 Samuel Contesti used FS music I associated with the Duchesnays. While he was skating I kept thinking about the FD of the Duchesnays and didn't pay enough attention to his actual program. He did have a good program:

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

In 2006 Chait/Sakhnovski had a FD to Bolero and that was perhaps the first time since T/D that ice dancers did that. Is this brave or is this asking for comparisons to icons which makes one seem even less good ice dancers? Either way, I did enjoy this performance too, though admittedly on mute:

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

 

[boysoprano]

Kostner's bolero is a beautiful piece of skating, and she looks beautiful, but there is a psychopathic element to bolero I think she is too nice and wholesome to capture.

 

[Mathman]

Kostner's bolero is a beautiful piece of skating, and she looks beautiful, but there is a psychopathic element to bolero I think she is too nice and wholesome to capture.

There is! There is!

By 1928 Ravel was already in the grip of the neurological disease that would kill him. At the first public performance of Bolero, a member of the audience called out, You're mad." To which Ravel replied, "She gets it!"

 

[4everchan]

There is! There is!

By 1928 Ravel was already in the grip of the neurological disease that would kill him. At the first public performance of Bolero, a member of the audience called out, You're mad." To which Ravel replied, "She gets it!"

Some may view it this way, others may see the piece as the culmination of Ravel's genius at orchestration. I am on the latter team, as you may imagine. The piece uses a repetitive rhythmic pattern indeed... nothing crazy here, especially that this is exactly what a boléro is, a Spanish dance. Ravel did it as well in his acclaimed composition La valse (1920). Such rhythmic patterns have been used over and over in music and are called ostinato . Nowadays, in pop music, we hear them often, some of them are pure ostinati... others close enough... Sometimes, people refer to them as earworms though an earworm could also be something else (like a catchy tune that is not necessarily repeated).

What Ravel did so admirably well with such a simple pattern is to create an unparalleled sonourous experience with the variety of colours and tones with the usage of various instruments getting the melody. He goes through pretty much the entire orchestra, including oboe d'amore, the saxes, even trombone. The piece is a large crescendo, it keeps building and building slowly. It's very very well-crafted. I will spare you with a detailed formal analysis here, but you can surely find one on the web if you are so inclined.

Here is a quote from Ravel about his Bolero :

In a 1931 interview with The Daily Telegraph, he spoke about the work as follows: (I bolded parts that I thought were important for this discussion)

It constitutes an experiment in a very special and limited direction, and should not be suspected of aiming at achieving anything different from, or anything more than, it actually does achieve. Before its first performance, I issued a warning to the effect that what I had written was a piece lasting seventeen minutes and consisting wholly of "orchestral tissue without music"—of one very long, gradual crescendo. There are no contrasts, and practically no invention except the plan and the manner of execution.

Since I mentioned La valse : enjoy

 

[Warwick360]

Not sure if mentioned in this forum, since a lot to go through, but while all the others have their iconic tune, like Gershwin always reminding me of Yuna and almost being untouchable if anyone else tried that music, or Bolero for Torvill and Dean to name a few, ...but since the Nutcracker is so used now and then, everytime I hear that in any program, especially for a solo skate, my mind will be off to picturing Sasha Cohen, even though I never followed much skating until 2010. She truly was a balletic wonder.

 

[Mathman]

@ 4everchan. Thanks for the perscpective.

I do have to say, though, that my own philistine reaction to the La Valse performance was that this music has an insistent quality that casts a somewhat disturbing spell. I would say that this is not music that can be appreciated by the great unwashed masses (or skated to).

By the way, for me, if I let it play to the end, the next You Tube offering that automatically comes up is Michelle Kwan skating Lyra Angelica. I suppose that this is You Tube's AI algorithm feeding me something that they think I will like given my You Tube history.

 

[4everchan]

^ Thanks for the perscpective.

I do have to say, though, that my own philistine reaction to the La Valse performance was that it was "insistent," even somewhat disturbing. I would say that this is not music that can be appreciated by the great unwashed masses. (or skated to).

By the way, for me, if I let it play to the end, the next You Tube offering that automatically comes up is Michelle Kwan skating Lyra Angelica. I suppose that this is You Tube's AI algorithm feeding me something that they think I will like given my You Tube history.

You are welcome. Sure, it's not the most accessible piece for everyone. I shared it to show how the concept is something that Ravel was already intrigued about. Now let's see what youtube suggests for me

HAHA

Ravel's La Valse but the two piano version...

So yeah.. youtube's algorithm is potent.

 

[Mathman]

... but since the Nutcracker is so used now and then, everytime I hear that in any program, especially for a solo skate, my mind will be off to picturing Sasha Cohen, even though I never followed much skating until 2010. She truly was a balletic wonder.

I totally agree with everything you say....except, it's not Nutcracker it's Swan Lake!!!

Here is her best performance (puncuated by Dick Button's gushing commentary). This is the first and virtually the only time in her career that she got through the whole program without making a distracting mistake, and also the first time she beat Michelle Kwan. Campbell's Classic cheesefest, 2003.

Sasha Cohen - 2003 Campbells "Swan Lake"

www.youtube.com

 

[Warwick360]

I totally agree with everything you say....except, it's not Nutcracker it's Swan Lake!!!

Here is her best performance (puncuated by Dick Button's gushing commentary). This is the first and virtually the only time in her career that she got through the whole program without making a distracting mistake, and also the first time she beat Michelle Kwan. Campbell's Classic cheesefest, 2003.

Sasha Cohen - 2003 Campbells "Swan Lake"

www.youtube.com

The main reason I couldn't say swan lake is because Ilynikh has that secured in my mind. For all the drama of the Sochi events, that was truly a memorable scene that for me can't be supplanted for this music.

But other than that, anything balletic Sasha's done, I agree, truly mesmerising.

 

[iluvtodd]

Michelle Kwan's "East of Eden" is magnificent, for sure. I do love how Sean Rabbitt skated to it through the years (as a short program), especially @ 2019 US Nationals!

 

[norwegianfairytale]

I havn´t gotten around the whole thread, but here is my opinion. Of course, certain music choice would make you think of iconic performances, but I don´t think they belong to certain skaters. That would be unfair to skaters to label them like that. If they like to skate to a certain piece of music, which might have been a dream the whole life, they should.

I think it´s worse when skaters skate to the same music back to back in competition, and one of the performances really blends out, making the other performance seem rather bleak, all though it´s actually pretty decent. This must kinda be the nightmare for a skater, using a lot of money and time on a new program they are really proud of, finding out that a even better skater is skating to the same piece, knowing you will be compared to a more talented skater the whole season.

 

[mrrice]

I totally agree with everything you say....except, it's not Nutcracker it's Swan Lake!!!

Here is her best performance (puncuated by Dick Button's gushing commentary). This is the first and virtually the only time in her career that she got through the whole program without making a distracting mistake, and also the first time she beat Michelle Kwan. Campbell's Classic cheesefest, 2003.

Sasha Cohen - 2003 Campbells "Swan Lake"

www.youtube.com

The performance of her life. Had she done that LP in 2006, she'd be Olympic Champion,