Wagner's world medal and her legacy

[mrrice]

You know who Ashley reminds me of........Cher She's been around forever, Every Homo the on planet loves her, and you know what....She's Talented and Beautiful. That's a Legacy that ton's of people, including me, would to love have.

 

[TwinnerA]

So I was looking at Wikipedia to see just how many World medals American ladies have won in the years I actually remember, from 1965 to 2006, and American ladies won 48 World medals! Here's the breakdown below plus if they won any Olympic medals. Just looking at all the hardware these ladies won at Worlds, I think Ashley's legacy definitely requires a World medal of some sort!

Peggy Fleming – 3 gold 1 bronze (Olympic gold)
Julie Lynn Holmes – 1 silver 1 bronze
Janet Lynn – 1 silver 1 bronze (Olympic bronze)
Dorothy Hamill – 1 gold 2 silver (Olympic gold)
Linda Fratianne – 2 gold 1 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver)
Elaine Zayak – 1 gold 1 silver 1 bronze
Rosalynn Sumners - 1 gold (Olympic silver)
Tiffany Chin – 2 bronze
Debi Thomas – 1 gold 1 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver)
Caryn Kadavy – 1 bronze
Jill Trenary – 1 gold 1 bronze
Holly Cook – 1 bronze
Kristi Yamaguchi – 2 gold (Olympic gold)
Tonya Harding – 1 silver
Nancy Kerrigan – 1 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver & bronze)
Nicole Bobek – 1 bronze
Michelle Kwan – 5 gold 3 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver & bronze)
Tara Lipinski – 1 gold (Olympic gold)
Sasha Cohen – 2 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver)
Kimmie Meissner – 1 gold

And then there is Sarah Hughes, an Olympic Gold medalist without any World medals.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Sasha got three!!!!

 

[ice coverage]

...And then there is Sarah Hughes, an Olympic Gold medalist without any World medals.

Wrong. Sarah Hughes won the bronze at 2001 Worlds.

http://web.icenetwork.com/skaters/profile/sarah_hughes

 

[arewhyaen]

Interesting that you either forgot to mention Sarah Hughes in your OP or did not consider her Olympic gold worthy of even a mention.

I actually did just forget her. If I'm being honest, I also almost forgot to put Lipinski. I suppose the Kwanatic in every fan tends to block out those two skaters from their memories

But, going deeper, I suppose its because I was just thinking of the ladies who were perceived to be the leaders of American skating. Hughes did win olympic gold and world bronze in 2001, but no one ever saw her as the leading American lady - even in 2003 - after winning the OG. Lipinski, on the other hand, was definitely seen as the top lady in 1997, and as a co-favorite going into 1998 - with Kwan being the slight favorite because of her performance at nationals. I think a case can be made for all the other ladies I mentioned as being seen as the "leader" or co-leader of American ladies skating.

 

[carriecmu0503]

So I was looking at Wikipedia to see just how many World medals American ladies have won in the years I actually remember, from 1965 to 2006, and American ladies won 48 World medals! Here's the breakdown below plus if they won any Olympic medals. Just looking at all the hardware these ladies won at Worlds, I think Ashley's legacy definitely requires a World medal of some sort!

Peggy Fleming – 3 gold 1 bronze (Olympic gold)
Julie Lynn Holmes – 1 silver 1 bronze
Janet Lynn – 1 silver 1 bronze (Olympic bronze)
Dorothy Hamill – 1 gold 2 silver (Olympic gold)
Linda Fratianne – 2 gold 1 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver)
Elaine Zayak – 1 gold 1 silver 1 bronze
Rosalynn Sumners - 1 gold (Olympic silver)
Tiffany Chin – 2 bronze
Debi Thomas – 1 gold 1 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver)
Caryn Kadavy – 1 bronze
Jill Trenary – 1 gold 1 bronze
Holly Cook – 1 bronze
Kristi Yamaguchi – 2 gold (Olympic gold)
Tonya Harding – 1 silver
Nancy Kerrigan – 1 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver & bronze)
Nicole Bobek – 1 bronze
Michelle Kwan – 5 gold 3 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver & bronze)
Tara Lipinski – 1 gold (Olympic gold)
Sasha Cohen – 2 silver 1 bronze (Olympic silver)
Kimmie Meissner – 1 gold

And then there is Sarah Hughes, an Olympic Gold medalist without any World medals.

Debi Thomas won Olympic bronze, not silver.

 

[Watermelondrea]

I mean these girls are only famous because they are from the US, not hate to them but really that's all. If they were from a country like Russia:

A) would most likely be irrelevant as they are so inconsistent

or

B) would be incredibly consistent as the Russian Coaches would've done better for them.

That being said I do appreciate the American women being older and more mature; it's a nice contrast to the Russian Teens. As for Ashley, no, I don't think her legacy depends on a world medal just like I don't think Alena Leonova's (I know she has a world silver) or Ksenia Makarova need a world medal for their legacy. All three of these ladies kept there federations going through the years and built there programs up.

 

[RABID]

Well, Kimmie Meissner won one bronze, two silvers, and three golds, one of which won her a Worlds title. How is her career viewed now these many years later? I think that might give an indication about how Ashley's career might be viewed years down the road. I certainly never hear people talk about Kimmie on these boards and elsewhere and yet that wasn't a bad haul of medals by her.

Forgot to include Kimmie also won Nationals three times as well.

 

[mrrice]

I mean these girls are only famous because they are from the US, not hate to them but really that's all. If they were from a country like Russia:

How many 3 time Russian Champions aren't Famous? I think every Russian Champion becomes Famous don't they? I completely forgot about Ksenia but, I saw her at Skate Canada in 2010. She was great!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xJKc7BHEl8

My point is. Ashley would be famous no matter where she came from because she's a 3 National and 4CC Champion. Look at Jennifer Robinson of Canada. She got a ton of recognition just for finishing in the top 10 and securing a second spot for her Country. She also has more national titles than Ashley and Gracie combined. Trust me, as a fan and skating Husband of Maria Butyrskaya. I remember when she got dumped by the Russian Federation and I also love that she never let them forget it. She didn't become really "Famous" outside of Russia until she was 25.

 

[Bonnie F]

I think Ashley's legacy will be as one of longevity but inconsistency. She is impressive in terms of fighting and making the most of her talent but her inconsistency has become a hallmark of her generation, being close but not quite good enough in the major events. Unfortunately, time marches on no matter how determined Ashley is, so her chances are becoming fewer and more ladies are developing high level programs that can top her even if she goes clean. I do think her longevity alone will make her legacy more substantial than some of the more decorated ladies like Bobek or Meissner, but a world medal would be a nice addition to her resume.

 

[Bonnie F]

I mean these girls are only famous because they are from the US, not hate to them but really that's all. If they were from a country like Russia:

A) would most likely be irrelevant as they are so inconsistent

or

B) would be incredibly consistent as the Russian Coaches would've done better for them.

That being said I do appreciate the American women being older and more mature; it's a nice contrast to the Russian Teens. As for Ashley, no, I don't think her legacy depends on a world medal just like I don't think Alena Leonova's (I know she has a world silver) or Ksenia Makarova need a world medal for their legacy. All three of these ladies kept there federations going through the years and built there programs up.

I was thinking more in terms of her legacy as an American figure skater, I doubt she will have a substantial legacy internationally even if she were to pick up a world medal.

 

[lilshorty]

Well, Kimmie Meissner won one bronze, two silvers, and three golds, one of which won her a Worlds title. How is her career viewed now these many years later? I think that might give an indication about how Ashley's career might be viewed years down the road. I certainly never hear people talk about Kimmie on these boards and elsewhere and yet that wasn't a bad haul of medals by her.

Forgot to include Kimmie also won Nationals three times as well.

Kimmie only won nationals once in 2007.

 

[mrrice]

I was thinking more in terms of her legacy as an American figure skater, I doubt she will have a substantial legacy internationally even if she were to pick up a world medal.

This is all very relative as to what one considers fame. Peggy Fleming is probably the most Famous US skater that I can think of outside of Dick Button. The biggest difference these days is that skaters don't receive huge TV contracts like they used to. Dorothy Hamill became almost as famous for her haircut as she did for her skating.

 

[fadeevfan]

Ashley's legacy, unfortunately, will be that of the top U.S. female figure during the lowest point in American figure skating since after that awful 1961 plane crash. She absolutely needs a world medal to rate with anyone on that long list of medal winners. OK, maybe she rates with Holly Cook, but . . . that's a pretty illustrious list.

I like Ashley, I think she's got a lot of grit. And I don't think she's choked or underperformed through the years -- I think she's performed well and placed where she deserved. She's a top skater with a very impressive career -- she's just not one of the greats.

 

[thegreendestiny]

Among all active skaters, she is probably the one who joined the most. Every year, she puts her heart out there. She was quite close a few times.

Hopefully, she gets one soon. And hopefully, she gets one before Gracie.

As for "legacy", all of them are just as good as their last winning performance. In 5 years time, Yuna will practically be irrelevant except to die-hard Koreans who will insist on naming her in every thread or Youtube videos to make everyone remember how "great" she truly was.

 

[mrrice]

Ashley's legacy, unfortunately, will be that of the top U.S. female figure during the lowest point in American figure skating since after that awful 1961 plane crash. She absolutely needs a world medal to rate with anyone on that long list of medal winners. OK, maybe she rates with Holly Cook, but . . . that's a pretty illustrious list.

I like Ashley, I think she's got a lot of grit. And I don't think she's choked or underperformed through the years -- I think she's performed well and placed where she deserved. She's a top skater with a very impressive career -- she's just not one of the greats.

I'll say one thing for Ashley. I think she has Maximized her gifts. She was never landing Triple Triples like Angela Wang or Gracie when they were Juniors. The other thing Ashley hasn't done during her Career is go backwards and you can't say that about a lot of skaters these days. Ann Patrice and Caroline Z. come to mind as 2 skaters who never lived up to the hype they generated as Juniors.

Lastly, I don't think Ashley's done. Something tells me she's going to be in a broadcast booth someday. Watch out Tara....

 

[mrrice]

Debi Thomas won Olympic bronze, not silver.

That's right.....Just ask Liz Manley....:agree:

 

[Imagine]

Why does she need x-amount of Worlds medals to have a "good" legacy anyway? Not every skater is going to get something at Worlds, but that doesn't mean they are irrelevant or make their legacy any less respectable. Ashley has been doing a tough job out there, but she has simply maxed out in potential, technically and artistically IMO. It's not that she sucks or anything like that, it's just that a lot of the competition has evolved to become that much better (in the same way that US skating has not suddenly declined as some perceive it, rather the other skating countries have just become very good, very fast). Before it was just Mao, Yuna, and Carolina dominating the field...if one of them slipped up maybe that's when Ashley had a real opportunity to sneak in for a podium spot (not sure if this has ever happened in actuality though). As far as other US contenders go, with Sasha out of the picture...she really only had to worry about Mirai and Caroline Zhang (who both proved to be incapacitated by puberty issues later), Alissa Czisny who was decommissioned by injury, and one or two other girls who I can't even recall the names of. Well, if she didn't make a breakthrough at Worlds then, it's become even more impossible now. Now on top of the never-ending Russian wunder train, she has to compete against Polina and Gracie, who despite their actual performance thus far, do possess the potential to do very well internationally...and who are pretty much out of the puberty danger zone. That's not to mention all of the promising up-and-comers like Karena Chen just hungering for a spot on the US team. And then there's Japan with their consistency monster Satoko, a quickly developing Hongo Rika, and a returning Mao who can all definitely beat Ashley barring serious mistakes. If Ashley's already been consistently putting out her best against lesser competition, what is she going to bring to the table now, late into her career, when her opponents have become much stronger? Realistically, this year is probably her last shot at any Worlds medal, and it would take an absolute miracle (or catastrophe depending on who you're rooting for) for Ashley to even graze that podium. I mean, yeah, people will probably point out "Well, Gracie, Mao, and Anna are inconsistent, so there's three down right away" which is definitely true, but I'd be hard pressed to believe that if that's the case, Evgenia, Elena, Satoko, and Polina would all make enough, or serious enough mistakes as well to allow Ashley onto the podium. And if Ashley and all the aforementioned ladies go clean, I don't see the judges placing her ahead of anyone other than Polina, Satoko, and maybe Anna (if they hate her for some random reason or since Worlds is in the US this year, I dunno).


Getting back on topic though, I don't think Ashely even needs a Worlds medal to solidify her place in US skating. She's sort of like the Alena Leonova of US ladies...keeping the US relevant until stronger contenders (like Polina, Gracie, and Karen Chen) emerge. Turns out, none of those contenders have really lived up to their potential thus far, while Ashley has pretty much been consistently at her best...so she alone cannot be held responsible for the sad state of US ladies skating. I have not been a big fan of Ashley, but she definitely deserves credit for being such a fighter and for so long. Before, I was really unimpressed with her because I felt she had a sense of entitlement about her, and a bit of delusion about her own abilities. Her attitude was a turn-off initially, but I guess you sort of "get it" the more you get to know her. I can see where she's coming from and it's sincere. It sucks to have to admit it, but her tenacity has definitely turned me around and I do respect all she has accomplished as well as her spirit. And while I poke fun about her highly regarded maturity, I'm finding that (somewhat to my dismay), she is in the right and it actually shows through at times in her performances. Sure, some of the things she says definitely rub me the wrong way (sorry, just not my flavor), but I agree with those who say she is an inspiration for younger skaters, in that she epitomizes hard work and self-belief. I think that is her actual "legacy", and it doesn't have to be perceived as empty just because there are no medals from a specific competition to be associated with it. She's also an Olympian with a bronze medal, and has multiple US titles so no, she doesn't need a Worlds medal to have a solid legacy in that regard. Honestly, a Worlds medal other than gold at this point isn't going to change things that much for Ashley. It's not like she'll get the silver or bronze medal and all of sudden, she's Ashley Wagner the legend. No, she'll be Ashley Wagner; fighter, role model, and a Worlds silver/bronze medalist. Now, if she gets the gold, that's another story...and tbh, even though it will have meant she has systematically destroyed most of my favorites...I would love to witness that just for the sheer drama.

 

[Mathman]

This is a difficult question. I don't remember if Janet Lynn ever won Worlds but, I think She Medaled. I will say that She was certainly very popular. Older Generation. Wasn't Janet the spokeswoman for Kodak Instamatic Camera's? Do you guys remember those things? They were basically a cardboard box that took horrible pictures that you had to take to "Photomat" to get developed.

http://www.bambootrading.com/300/a331.jpg

The incomparable Janet Lynn had a lot of endorsements. Plus, when she signed with Ice Folies she became the highest-piad woman athlete in the world (back in the day when $1.5 million was some money ) Her legacy is that she was such a sublime free skater that the ISU changed the whole structure of the sport, eventually eliminating figures altogether, to encourage "skating like Janet Lynn" (Lynn was not strong in figures, especially compared to the all-time figures champ, her rival Trixie Schuba).

They created the short program specifically to showcase Lynn's strengths. Lori Nicole famously used Janet Lynn tapes to show Michelle Kwan how she wanted Kwan to skate. Dick Button created the World Professional Championships (Landover) just to cash in on Janet Lynn.

The Kodak Instamatic was great because for $14.95 you, too, could be a photographer. The reason that the camera itself could be just a cardboard box is because Kodak invented the film cartridge which contained most of the "parts" that were built into other cameras. Only the Brownie ($1 in 1900) was cooler.

About Ashley, here is the list of all ladies who won the U.S. championship three times or more since 1950: Tenley Albright, Carol Heiss, Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamill, Linda Fratianne, Rosalynn Sumners, Jill Trenary, Michelle Kwan … and Ashley Wagner.

 

[noskates]

I guess it depends on what you consider a "legacy!" I think having won Nationals three times is pretty special. It's not like she's going to be forgotten very soon whether she wins a World medal or not.