Wagner's world medal and her legacy

[skateluvr]

To me Hughes is not in the same class as the others mentioned, nor frankly is Lipinski, who is only really remembered with such vividness because it was Kwan she beat out for the OGM. I do myself believe that having a Olympic or World medal in and of itself does not ensure you have a real 'legacy', but I'd argue that whether it is possible to have a real legacy without a World medal is a different question than whether you having said medal necessarily ensures you have a legacy.

Both Tara and Sarah were great competitors. Given Tara's age her accomplishments were stellar. She won every major gold in les than two years. And she was the first to do triple loop triple loop in competition. Then a triple half loop triple. Sarah went after the jumps too. She won OGM at 16 and decided college was more important. It does seem when she gained weight and wasn't totally focused on skating the judges kind of returned to MK at Nationals. Sarah and Sasha skated the best in 2002. Sasha deserved a medal. I think Michelle could have been 4th is Sasha were not totally new to the scene. She had a lot of confidence then. Kinda like Mirai in 2010. Funny no one mentions Mirai or Rachel who did great at Olympics. Rachel should have been 5th. School came first and if not Flatt might still be around with her reliable jumps.

I think Evgenia Medvedeva is going to end up with a world gold and an Olympic medal. Unless she is pushed out by Polina T or the next Russian baby. I think she could rack up a collection like Yuna. But on the day you never know who it might be. My dream is for Ashley to somehow get bronze this year. That means several Russian girls and a couple Japanese don't skate too well and my other dream is for Gracie to turn a corner and win a world medal or two and then get gold in Korea. She is so much more polished and stunning to watch than Evgenia. I must say it bothers me to see Evgenia that thin. Her legs look like that could snap in two in she took a bad fall. Her beautiful face will be matched I hope with some height and filling out that dress that just hangs on her. I was naturally a stick so I know she must be healthy to skate like that but sometimes I worry because eating disorders are so rampant in ballet, skating and gymnastics. This is the first year I think Elena is attractive. By that I mean you se how slender she is but her body is fuller and I don't cringe at the legs in her second position squat spread eagle or whatever they call it. Adelina was never scary skinny. One of my favorite skaters ever and in my top four all time Japanese skaters was Akiko Suzuki and she lost precious time with her battle with an eating disorder. So happy she won that fight and went on to give such beautiful joyous programs. I almost wish Akiko had returned more than Mao but I love her too. I think they are the most joyful skaters. Maos exhibitions really show she loves to skate. I have so many favorites I have to think of them by national origin to remember them all. I think that would be a fun thread to rank your all time favorites my country!

 

[mrrice]

http://www.bambootrading.com/300/a331.jpg

The incomparable Janet Lynn had a lot of endorsements. Plus, when she signed with Ice Folies she became the highest-piad woman athlete in the world (back in the day when $1.5 million was some money ) Her legacy is that she was such a sublime free skater that the ISU changed the whole structure of the sport, eventually eliminating figures altogether, to encourage "skating like Janet Lynn" (Lynn was not strong in figures, especially compared to the all-time figures champ, her rival Trixie Schuba).

They created the short program specifically to showcase Lynn's strengths. Lori Nicole famously used Janet Lynn tapes to show Michelle Kwan how she wanted Kwan to skate. Dick Button created the World Professional Championships (Landover) just to cash in on Janet Lynn.

The Kodak Instamatic was great because for $14.95 you, too, could be a photographer. The reason that the camera itself could be just a cardboard box is because Kodak invented the film cartridge which contained most of the "parts" that were built into other cameras. Only the Brownie ($1 in 1900) was cooler.

About Ashley, here is the list of all ladies who won the U.S. championship three times or more since 1950: Tenley Albright, Carol Heiss, Janet Lynn, Dorothy Hamill, Linda Fratianne, Rosalynn Sumners, Jill Trenary, Michelle Kwan … and Ashley Wagner.

KABOOOOM!!!!!! Oh Mathman.........I love all the smart people on this site..

 

[RABID]

Kimmie only won nationals once in 2007.

If that's the case then either I didn't read her Wickepedia page correctly or they are misinformed.

 

[Mathman]

...It does seem when [Sarah Hughes] gained weight and wasn't totally focused on skating the judges kind of returned to MK at Nationals…

I wouldn't exactly say that the U.S. judges "retruned" to Kwan. Michelle won 8 U.S. National titles in a row from 1998 to 2005, uninterrupted by Sarah, Sasha or anyone else.

Sarah and Sasha skated the best in 2002. Sasha deserved a medal. I think Michelle could have been 4th is Sasha were not totally new to the scene.

I agree. As the new kid on the block, Sasha had to skate squeaky clean. Kwan had more leeway with the judges.

I think Evgenia Medvedeva is going to end up with a world gold and an Olympic medal. Unless she is pushed out by Polina T or the next Russian baby. I think she could rack up a collection like Yuna.

Yuna, however, hold a record that I doubt will ever be matched: She was on the podium in every event that she entered, at any level.

By that I mean you se how slender [Radionova] is but her body is fuller and I don't cringe at the legs in her second position squat spread eagle or whatever they call it.

For me, Gracie, too, could leave out the frog-squat position.

 

[RABID]

Among all active skaters, she is probably the one who joined the most. Every year, she puts her heart out there. She was quite close a few times.

Hopefully, she gets one soon. And hopefully, she gets one before Gracie.

As for "legacy", all of them are just as good as their last winning performance. In 5 years time, Yuna will practically be irrelevant except to die-hard Koreans who will insist on naming her in every thread or Youtube videos to make everyone remember how "great" she truly was.

I think that is some wishful thinking on your part. Just for the record, I don't know a word of Korean.

 

[mrrice]

If that's the case then either I didn't read her Wickepedia page correctly or they are misinformed.

Kimmie has only 1 Senior National title and that was in 2007. Sasha won in 2006 and then was beaten by Kimmie at Worlds that same season.

 

[Mathman]

If that's the case then either I didn't read her Wickepedia page correctly or they are misinformed.

The Wikipedia page is right, but you have to notice that Kimmie's three "national titles" include one novice title, one junior title, and only one senior title. Strangely, she won the world championship before she ever won a U.S. championship.

 

[skateluvr]

Yes Ashley is in high company and she isn't done yet. If someone of the three American ladies could win a world medal this year I hope it is Ashley because she is 4 years on from Gracie and 6 from Polina. She has given many good and great performances to skating and she has improved technically at an age where we did not see even Kwan able to do that regarding her jumps. I love Michelle and have several go to programs but I must admit one gets used to the CoP busyness. Many 6.0 programs do look rather empty. One person who always had superior programs under 6.0 and as apro was Kurt Browning. Some skaters naturally did dance moves.

Well as I said a lot of people have to choke for that world medal to happen but Ashley has longevity and I think her consistent appearance amongst all these Russian babies who win a season then get bumped aside is amazing. Her achievements on the Grand Prix circuit and finals is certainly worth more than a bronze from Nicole Bobek. A skater I thought was amazing and could have done more with better work ethic less partying and stronger nerves. She was a stunner as the Eurosport guys would say.

I think many people besides here in USA are hoping Ashley is rewarded at Worlds. I think her PCS should be higher than many of the teens who beat her. She has the jumps in practice and when she puts it all together she is rather peerless. I think Radionova skates with the same great attack and presentation. She really is fun to watch and has so much talent. I think natural performers like Ashley are rare. Currently I think Gabby Daleman and of course Kaetlynne Owmond have the fiery spark I love to see. Adelina skates with much heart as well but she isn't in Olympic form as yet. Gracie Gold captures me too. A lot of comments about her windmill arms but when she is feeling confident she has a captivating presentation. For me Evgenia is good but can really improve so much in presentation. I hope she is still here in two more years because she will be great I think and deserve the PCS scores she is already getting. I think Polina T who I think is still in juniors is another dynamic performer who has it all potentially.

For me the presentation separates the women from the girls. And while it can be taught easier than the technical elements it is still so obvious when a natural born star like Kaetlyn takes to the ice. Another girl I really hope can get back into great form before the Olympics. Oh my goodness I really think that at the next Olympics they make 6 medals. The ladies are amazing. I really wish there were a pewter medal in all international events. I'm not sure why we have that at Nationals but not internationally.

Oh and one more word or two about Ashley is that given her talent and skills I think there would be some symmetry in a world bronze this year because she was a world junior Bronze medalist. I really enjoyed watching her recently in 2007 and 2008 competition. I personally thought she skated great in the Olympics and was undermarked. Okay the face was over the top but she deserved better marks than she got. Sochi sure had some interesting scoring like most Olympics I guess.

 

[Mathman]

As for "legacy", all of them are just as good as their last winning performance. In 5 years time, Yuna will practically be irrelevant...

Those two sentences kind of go in opposite directions, greensword. Yuna's last "winning performance" was the iconic Les Miz at 2013 Worlds. It remains the only non-Kwan performance on my play list.

 

[Mathman]

I'm not sure why we have that [pewter medals] at Nationals but not internationally.

It's because in the U.S. qualifying system the top four skaters in regionals move on to sectionals and the top four in sectionals make it to nationals. So the USFSA thought they should give a prize to the fourth-place finishers as well as to first, second and third.

 

[thegreendestiny]

Yuna, however, hold a record that I doubt will ever be matched: She was on the podium in every event that she entered, at any level.

Although that is a great record, 2006-2010 Yuna-Mao era was a rather weak field that can easily be exploited by a consistent skater. The amount of competitions she entered in her active years as a skater is significantly fewer.

Also, Korean nationals = Russian novice level these days.

 

[skateluvr]

Well, Kimmie Meissner won one bronze, two silvers, and three golds, one of which won her a Worlds title. How is her career viewed now these many years later? I think that might give an indication about how Ashley's career might be viewed years down the road. I certainly never hear people talk about Kimmie on these boards and elsewhere and yet that wasn't a bad haul of medals by her.

Forgot to include Kimmie also won Nationals three times as well.

People have short memories. but the reason so many US ladies are forgotten here is that we have very few people who were even watching skating 10 years ago. It seems the demographics of the board are young and getting younger. Kimmie Meissner had a lot of success but everyone seems to think a decade is normal because of Michelle. I think people will remember Ashley because of her Longevity and many great performances in the sport. Caro Kostner was amazing at 16. . Then there was a long drought for her. But she stuck around. People remember great performances or a dress. Not many people love a skater because of their medal haul. You either are a fan or not based on how much you get out of their skating. Ashley Wagner will stick in our minds because of Black Swan, Delilah maybe or Satine because she makes characters come to life. Even for those of us not memory challenged lol I think we remember the ones who skated a long time or specific moments. Besides a silver for Liz Manley at Calgary I have no idea how many Canadian titles she has or world titles. I guess as a non Canadian I'm typical. But I remember the performance she gave that brought down the house. To me the gold was due to Katarinas competing nerve. And Debbie we recall sadly for the huge meltdown. So I think if great performances are given then we recall that. It doesn't matter about edge calls rotations etc. we remember what moves us. And thus I will pay homage to my avatar. There are few skaters as fun to watch as Ashley Wagner and I'm grateful she wears her heart on her sleeve. When she makes mistakes we are still with her. I think her legacy will be that.

Brian Orser to me was a better skater than Boitano. But Brian won gold and had many endorsements and his own pro show for twenty years. Brian Orser had two silvers and never got the attention Boitano got or the money in those glory days of Northamerican men's champions. Does it matter? Who moved you the most?

Adelina has gold and Caro has bronze. But I think Caros Sp is on the top of the Sochi re watch list. So for long time true fans I think we will always love a skater if they moved us, entertained us or made our jaw drop.

For Ashley's sake I hope she gets a world medal in any color. It matters deeply to her as she has given her life thus far. To me I'm still going to love Hip Hip Chin Chin because it is a "cracker." Gotta love those Eurosport guys.

Edited to take out the OT Trump reference and thank you Mathman for the pewter explanation. I once had a memory like yours but sadly never the math ability. Thanks for your erudition!

 

[mrrice]

I think BOTH Brian's have been very successful. I realize Brian Orser is still very busy in the skating world. However, Brian had a successful cooking show on the Food Network and I think is still involved with food activities around San Francisco Ca. I live not too far from there so any time Brian does anything it makes the news here in Clovis. I still think if you came to the mall here in town and asked which skater people knew.....They'd probably still say Sasha. She was HUGE hit when Stars On Ice came to town.

 

[TwinnerA]

Wrong. Sarah Hughes won the bronze at 2001 Worlds.

http://web.icenetwork.com/skaters/profile/sarah_hughes

Yikes! My eyes were just so blinded by all the other American ladies' medals that I missed Sarah!

 

[mrrice]

I started watching figure skating in 00' or 02'. I will remember Ashley as my favorite American skater since Michelle Kwan and I feel like she should be remembered as the best American lady of this era. That's just my opinion, though.

Ashley is the best performer from a theatrical standpoint since Rosalynn Sumners. Though others may disagree, I think, like Ros, We'll be seeing Ashley in the public eye for many years to come.

 

[karlowens2]

You know who Ashley reminds me of........Cher She's been around forever, Every Homo the on planet loves her, and you know what....She's Talented and Beautiful. That's a Legacy that ton's of people, including me, would to love have.

Snap! Snap!!

 

[da96103]

Whoever breaks the ladies' World Medal drought will have a legacy.

That lady would be like rain in California.

 

[tulosai]

So I've thought about this more, and decided it flat out depends what is meant by 'legacy'.

If 'legacy' means being remembered across many nationalities among many people for decades and being counted among the all-time greats like Katerina Witt, Torvill and Dean, Gordieva and Grinkov, and so on, Ashley's not going to have a legacy, probably, even if she does win a World medal. By this definition though an extremely small number of skaters have legacies, and the only two women from the past 10 ish years who I am absolutely certain will have one are Yuna and Mao.

If legacy means simply having a good number of fans and being remembered by your fans after you're done skating for a very long time, then sure of course, Ashley will have one. Her longevity in the sport alone assures this. By this definition, a lot of skaters actually have legacies, being remembered fondly by some people for a very very long time after they are done. By this definition countless ladies currently competing will have one, including skaters like Nagasu who overall have had way less impressive careers than Ashley.

If legacy means something in between these two extremes, as I suspect it does, then I think the answer is we'll have to wait and see. I do think it may also depend on whether the question is whether she has/is going to have an international legacy, or whether she is going to have something of a legacy as an American skater. I'd argue that maybe her Nationals results alone give her an American legacy, but whether that translates into the kind of legacy even Kerrigan, Yamaguchi, etc have (I mention them because I'd argue they are not in the Witt, G/G, Torvil and Dean league but do have some kind of international 'stamp' so to speak) is another question.

 

[yyyskate]

Among all active skaters, she is probably the one who joined the most. Every year, she puts her heart out there. She was quite close a few times.

Hopefully, she gets one soon. And hopefully, she gets one before Gracie.

As for "legacy", all of them are just as good as their last winning performance. In 5 years time, Yuna will practically be irrelevant except to die-hard Koreans who will insist on naming her in every thread or Youtube videos to make everyone remember how "great" she truly was.

But I am pretty sure that In 5 years time, Yuna will be relevant to die-hard haters like you though

Back to Ashley, even if not a particular a fan of hers, but I think her legacy is she already left a handful of programs/performance that is masterful, such as black swan, S&D and Moulin Rouge etc (and her R&J). Those are the things I will remember Ashley for, and Those are the performances, I will rewatch maybe tens year after her retirement. With/O a world or OG medal really does not change a bit at least for me.

 

[andyjo24]

Although that is a great record, 2006-2010 Yuna-Mao era was a rather weak field that can easily be exploited by a consistent skater. The amount of competitions she entered in her active years as a skater is significantly fewer.

Also, Korean nationals = Russian novice level these days.

Have you even seen Korean Nationals this year? The girls are pretty much almost on the same level as the Russian ladies. You'll be surprised.