2015-16 Grand Prix Final Mens SP

[AprilS]

Two observations: the first is, Patrick Chan could say the sky was blue and people would criticize him because he didn't say it was azure!

Second observation (and this won't be a popular one) Yuzu skated lights out - no question about it. But the scoring is ridiculous. Basically he could skate his LP on his butt and still win the competition. This will be like last year when he fell twice and still won. I really don't like that possibility. Yuzu hasn't always been the most consistent skater and the reality is he could have a bad LP and win. And there's something intrinsically wrong with that scenario. I think the judges need to calm down!!!

Then who do you think should have won last year? :confused2: Also, I don't think the situation is very comparable - it's not like Hanyu was so far ahead of Machida in the short last year that he "could skate his LP on his but and still win" if Machida skated lights out... which he didn't.

 

[xibsuarz]

Except he's never actually said that he's going to retire after 2018. True, he's only committed to skating to 2018 Olympics, but he hasn't ruled out continuing to compete. I remember reading an article where he told fans to calm down, he wasn't going to just completely stop skating after 2018.

He loves competing so much, I can imagine him being like Plushenko, constantly coming back as his body allows.

He said it would depend on whether he felt he has achieved everything he could or if he felt like there was still something left to do. But back to your original question, as for physical limitations to his improvement, I'm not sure we can know how far it'll go until he actually reaches that point but it will be exciting to watch in the meantime

Then who do you think should have won last year? :confused2: Also, I don't think the situation is very comparable - it's not like Hanyu was so far ahead of Machida in the short last year that he "could skate his LP on his but and still win" if Machida skated lights out... which he didn't.

Shoma actually scored a higher TES in the JGPF in the FS than all the senior men sans Yuzuru...it was a combination of Yuzuru skating very well and the rest of the field underperforming which led to such a gap between him and the second place.

 

[Interspectator]

Looking at NHK and GPF programs, it boggles the mind where Yuzu was hiding this gorgeous 4t-3t all this time. He showed glimpses of it in shows, but suddenly BAM in both programs, and so beautifully done.

 

[AprilS]

Looking at NHK and GPF programs, it boggles the mind where Yuzu was hiding this gorgeous 4t-3t all this time. He showed glimpses of it in shows, but suddenly BAM in both programs, and so beautifully done.

It didn't matter if he did it or not until he started adding more quads (he even got more points for doing a solo quad(s) and the 3-3 in the second half of his programs instead!) - I reeaaally hope ISU starts making difficult combinations worth more

 

[nolangoh]

Regarding the 10s, especially on the performance, yes i agree that skaters should be awarded if they skated a spectacular program perfectly. And I think the PCS in these few years is getting higher and higher because the judges are getting used to the system and I think it is good for the skaters for getting a number that they really deserve. A few years before (around 2006-2012) the judges tend to give 8s or 9s for a superb performance, probably that's due to the practice of 'leaving room' in the 6.0 system. If we look at the past, quite a few skaters, at least imo, should deserve a much higher PCS. Daisuke Takahashi has been given way less than he deserved imo, esp on Performance and Interpretation.

As for Patrick, well it was unfortunate that he zayaked, but that does not mean his SS is any worse. He still sold the program ok, though I would take one full mark away from performance cuz he wasn't as cheerful as he used to be, or should be.

 

[Ophelia]

Hahah, true. I actually love both Yuna and Patrick, so I didn't mean to put them into a negative light.

It is also true, I'm discussing skaters at different points of their careers. I guess my question is, how much more room is left for Yuzu to peak? How much further is he going to try to push himself? How long can his body sustain such high level abilities before physical limitations force him to slow down?

Maybe he'll try to attempt a 5-rotations jump. What's next after a quad?

What if Hanyu pushed the sport forward to such a degree that skaters of the future will have a hard time catching up? O_O the body can only handle so many jumps.

 

[solani]

Regarding the 10s, especially on the performance, yes i agree that skaters should be awarded if they skated a spectacular program perfectly. And I think the PCS in these few years is getting higher and higher because the judges are getting used to the system and I think it is good for the skaters for getting a number that they really deserve. A few years before (around 2006-2012) the judges tend to give 8s or 9s for a superb performance, probably that's due to the practice of 'leaving room' in the 6.0 system. If we look at the past, quite a few skaters, at least imo, should deserve a much higher PCS. Daisuke Takahashi has been given way less than he deserved imo, esp on Performance and Interpretation.

As for Patrick, well it was unfortunate that he zayaked, but that does not mean his SS is any worse. He still sold the program ok, though I would take one full mark away from performance cuz he wasn't as cheerful as he used to be, or should be.

I agree.
I have no problem with the PCS Hanyu received, but he's obviously maxed out his PCS, so to improve his score (what he'll want) he has to put in more difficult elements. I hope that his coaching team will try to hold him back a little. We need him healthy and they'll have to try to keep him happy. Because he won't get this PCS when he doesn't skate clean. I liked that he looked very fierce right at the end of the performance and then seemed to remember that he should smile, haha. He's a fighter. I read from various althetes that staying on top is the most difficult thing, because you have to motivate yourself.
I'm really a little dissapointed by Patrick, yes, his 3Lz-3T was a very nice combo and he fighted for it, but it was really stupid to go for it. I don't like the rules (to me they should at least count that lutz), but he should definitly know them. If you do two toeloop jumps in the short program in seperate jumping passes you should simply know about this rule. This will cost him a medal here, but he'll probably don't care.

 

[MIM]

I think Brian also works really well with people who have a constant desire to improve and better themselves. I remember after Vancouver, Brian was so excited, and was talking about how maybe the next challenge would be for Yuna to learn the Triple Axel, and when Yuna was asked about it later, she was like, "My coach said WHAT?!?" I think if Brian says, "We're going to do the Quad Axel now," Yuzu will be just like, "Sign me up!"

So, Yuzu is constantly tryiing to improve, but he's running into the problem that there's no more room in the scores. Once Yuzu gets everything perfect, he won't be satisfied, and will change something to make it even more harder. First he's going to start moving one of the quads into the second half, and then both... and then he's going to switch out one of them for a higher base value quad.

Compare this to Patrick and Yuna. Once they had gotten so far ahead of the field, they didn't really see a need to improve technically, and let things slide. Yuna stopped trying to consistently get L4 spins, and gave up on the triple loop. You can win a few competitions this way, but after a while, your competitors will catch up.

I don't know how long Yuzu can stay this hungry either... at some point, is he going to be satisfied with maintaining this high level without trying to get even better?

Everyone has a priority in their life and life has to go on after the peak of their career. What Yuna has achieved with Brian until Vancouver is truly amazing and doesn't become any less valuable because she didn't continue upping her technical difficulties. Same goes with Patrick. Settling in the technical aspects doesn't mean they stopped growing. Figure skating is unkind to aged skaters, but I believe it certainly is something deep and further; they still pushed other boundaries equally valuable.

The virtue of Yuzu is fearlessness and youth; he is not afraid of challenges. He has endured too long to perfect quads. Honestly, I wished he settled sooner with less difficult elements, but that is not who yuzu is!

I think his time just started. Many people thought he couldn't repeat the NHK. But, imo, It was only a beginning. His goal is not putting multiple quads anymore; he will deliver one divine performance, making quads look disappeared within it. The season hasn't ended yet, but I am already excited by thinking of what programs he will be skating next year!

I don't have an answer to your question; how long yuzu can stay hungry? Obviously it is too soon to mention a retirement. However, everything has a rise and a fall. I hope his long reigning epoch with Brian. And, when the time comes, I hope Brian and yuzu prepare well his post peak of career. It is as important as how you reach to the peak, imo.

 

[draqq]

Let's look at the results on quads so far from the Men's SP from highest to lowest:

Yuzuru Hanyu: Two perfect quads
Javier Fernandez: Severe step out on quad
Boyang Jin: Scratchy quad, thereby under-rotated triple toe, also a double-footed quad
Shoma Uno: Fall on quad, also under-rotated
Daisuke Murakami: Clean quad salchow
Patrick Chan: Pop on quad into triple

So out of the top six male skaters, we have 8 quad attempts with only 3 landed cleanly. Not that great with the exception of the godly Yuzuru.

 

[Wo|flax]

People act like the 1.0-10.0 scale on PCS is not relative to what the standard in skating is, but it really is. Otherwise, how does one determine "good" "great" or whatever terms are used in defining what each PCS score is supposed to mean. It has to be relative because it's quantifying qualitative and subjective things. It's not like a jump that's easily identifiable. I don't mind 10.0s if we get something that truly was out of the ordinary and rare and special in the the time the performance happened. If we keep playing a game of "what if something was better..." or trying to interject our very own ideas of the perfect routine with the perfect execution with the perfect skater only deserving a ten, then the 10.0 will always only be a hypothetical and unattainable. I don't think a scoring system should have any score that's unattainable. Extremely difficult to receive, yes, but unattainable, no.

I wonder how many people said that Nadia Comeneci didn't deserve her 10.0s in the case that another hypothetical gymnast was better? Of course, gymnastics improved technically and had its artistic golden age in the 1980s (about 6+ years after she received the first 10.0s), but nobody looks back and says "they shouldn't have given her a 10.0 because gymnastics evolved." Instead they recognized what a revolution her difficulty + technique was and like that she made gymnasts realize it was possible.

:agree: That's a great comparison, I hadn't thought of that, and I randomly re-watch that performance too; I guess I'll be doing the same with Yuzu's performances in the years to come

'Zayak' is shorter than 'invalidated element as it didn't meet SP requirements' (I've been using it colloquially anyway).

Yuzu became a next level skater, not because he landed all planned quads, but because he made every element a part of his program. The quads were not the highlight of his program, it was the seamlessly integrated entire program. That made him a true master, IMO.

Some people may or may not agree, but I think this it the quality BO tries to bring in the figure skating. Most successfully done with Yuna's Gershwin LP in Vancouver Olympic and Yuzu's Chopin SP here. I think this vision makes Brian the best coach/artistic director and makes his students special.

Yuzuru was talking about that- making the jumps seamless part of the program- right after the Sochi olympics as his vision for the future- it's why he always does so many difficult transitions into jumps and never prepares/telegraphs.

I don't know how long Yuzu can stay this hungry either... at some point, is he going to be satisfied with maintaining this high level without trying to get even better?

His first interview after the SP he goes 'I have to practice my step sequence' (only level 3) I'm not sure if that answers your question...

 

[TryMeLater]

Maybe he'll try to attempt a 5-rotations jump. What's next after a quad?

What if Hanyu pushed the sport forward to such a degree that skaters of the future will have a hard time catching up? O_O the body can only handle so many jumps.

Different kind of Quads.
Hanyu didn't push the sport forward.
Boyang Jin did so, by consistently doing 4 quads in the LP and 2 in the SP and inspired all of the other skaters (including Hanyu).
What will happen is another Midori Ito situation...skaters will try up there technical ante in order to win...I would not be surprised if we see more 4 quads LP and even a 4-4 combo or a 4A.
It's an exciting time for the sport...

 

[Sugarpova]

I love these two so much! :dance2:

aw I cant get enough of them! Its SOOOO sweet to see this kind of support of such close rivals

 

[machin]

Maybe he'll try to attempt a 5-rotations jump. What's next after a quad?

Quad axel

Zago and Petrenko had gigantic triple axel so maybe they tried it for fun. I would have bet on Plushenko + Mishin but it seems it wasn't ever considered. There's still Gumennik and Hanyu for it depending how the first grows.

 

[Jombi]

. Daisuke Takahashi has been given way less than he deserved imo, esp on Performance and Interpretation.

This, very much.

 

[viennaskater]

BESP not realizing about zayaking yet??

British people like me don't know what it is - please explain.

 

[viennaskater]

I'm not one to nitpick at what skaters say in interviews, but Patrick could've really endeared himself to me if he just said "Yeah I ****ed up."

I've never understood all the fuss about Chan anyway.

 

[machin]

British people like me don't know what it is - please explain.

Zayak rule prevent skater to repeat more than two of the same kind of triple/quad per LP. Because Elaine Zayak won 1982 Worlds landing four or five triple toe in her LP (though with differents entries).

In the SP you can't repeat the same jump twice. It comes from the fact that SP was at first a required elements program you were asked to perform specific jumps or combos usually changing over a quad period and known in advance in order to allow a rotation between the jumps or things like circular/straight line step sequences and for juniors to master all different edges entries (very much for pairs but also singles). They tried to come back to this spirit changing a bit the rules and invaliding elements this season, which is a right thing IMO.

Zayak rule is the most known of figure skating rules and is very often mentioned on air. If a skating speaker doesn't realize a major element is invalid when it's happening in front of his eyes and most of the fans said it right away is quite telling.

 

[seniorita]

Boyang Jin is doing 4 different quads? I have missed the starting carrier of this skater.
Of course Hanyu has pushed the sport forward, he doesnt do all kinds of quads but he has incorporated them and all his other elements into choreo, he skates like none else ,plus he does the best triple axel entry ever:agree2:

 

[matmuh]

another world record by Yuzuru like its nothing we knew he had what it takes to be a top men but he wasnt able to do clean programs, but now it seems like his body has finally caught up with the crazy ideas and goals he has on that beautiful mind of his and he is on top of his game (or maybe not even 100% yet!) to quote Chris from BESP "i thought i had seen the best, i thought i had seen all i was gonna see this season in the NHK Trophy" and yet we still think about "can he top that? is there still room?" then he does once again, it is amazing
and not just how he performs on the ice, they way he held back after seeing his score, telling audience to calm down bc Javier was next, what a kind soul and one of the reasons i love him

Re Javier, it wasnt perfect but he did so much better than last year , judging by his comments we know his form his very good, and its good that he wont have to skate right after Hanyu at LP, i really love his programs this season, yes his LP is similar to previous years but i think this one is the best he had (minus Chaplin), good luck in the LP JAVI!! you can do it !!

about Patrick, it wasnt a bad skate actually but i wonder if skaters actually look other skater's protocols, cause its really a shame when your main rival makes a mistake and you do the same mistake a month later, you dont have to study rule book with you when you have an example right in front of you,
there is no shame in studying your rivals, look at Yuzuru, he is like a spunge, collecting best of skaters

 

[nolangoh]

British people like me don't know what it is - please explain.

The 'Zayak Rule' refers to the limitation of a certain jump performed in a program. In the free, skaters are NOT allowed to do two identical solo jumps. For example, if one does a 4T twice, at least one of them must be in a combination. Otherwise the second one would receive only 70% of the base value. This applies to any triple or quad jump. Moreover, NO jump can be done three times or more, other wise the third jump will receive no value. (If the third jump is in a combo, then the whole combo will get 0 point)

In the short, a solo jump CANNOT be executed as a part of the combination. Otherwise the combo will receive no point.

This rule is named after Elaine Zayak, the world champion in 1982, who did 6 triples, 4 out of which are toeloops.