2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[moriel]

On choreo.

1. Russian skaters sometimes outsource choreo, but not always. Why would they do it, if there are tons of great choreographers in Russia?
2. Observation: if you don't like a specific choreo style, it does not mean that it is bad. "Eteri team" choreo style seem to be quite well received by judges. Should the girls change it because some fans want to see them with a different choreographer? Debatable.
3. Outsourcing is expensive, as the skater needs to travel to a different location. So getting choreo "at home" has massive financial advantages, less traveling, and more time to work with the choreographer. All those things are a big deal.
4. For real, you people want juniors to outsource choreo? Who will pay for it? Unlike top seniors, they do not get much prize money, and its not like their parents can easily pay for a trip to USA or Europe.

 

[moriel]

Im hoping Eteri reads Golden Skate forums for serious feedback. Seriously.

I'm pretty sure that Eteri does not cares on what a bunch of "coach experts" say about her coaching style and about the programs her skaters get, and I would be very disappointed if she does.

You kinda say it like you think your opinion is as important as Eteri's own experience, and feedback from fed and judges.

 

[hanyuyuzuru1207]

On choreo.

1. Russian skaters sometimes outsource choreo, but not always. Why would they do it, if there are tons of great choreographers in Russia?
2. Observation: if you don't like a specific choreo style, it does not mean that it is bad. "Eteri team" choreo style seem to be quite well received by judges. Should the girls change it because some fans want to see them with a different choreographer? Debatable.
3. Outsourcing is expensive, as the skater needs to travel to a different location. So getting choreo "at home" has massive financial advantages, less traveling, and more time to work with the choreographer. All those things are a big deal.
4. For real, you people want juniors to outsource choreo? Who will pay for it? Unlike top seniors, they do not get much prize money, and its not like their parents can easily pay for a trip to USA or Europe.

No we were suggesting top notch skaters like Zhenya, Zagitova and maybe Alena K to get NA choreos like Jeff Butt or Shae Lynn

 

[moriel]

No we were suggesting top notch skaters like Zhenya, Zagitova and maybe Alena K to get NA choreos like Jeff Butt or Shae Lynn

Alena K is a junior. Read #4 please.
As for Zhenya and Alina, why would way want to outsource if they get better choreo in Russia?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think on the contrary... they want everything to be perfect so therefore they exaggerate with overcrowded programs and even attention to details (I may say).

The thing about details and complexity is that they're only good when they are effective. If a position is half-completed or an edge not held, the detail is a bit useless and the choreography ends up looking like a checklist of movements.

Of course if the judges still reward it then that's an issue with them. If the judges dock skaters in the choreography mark for choreography that's too busy then maybe they would focus more on finesse and actually letting the choreography breathe.

 

[russianfan]

Im hoping Eteri reads Golden Skate forums for serious feedback. Seriously.

Eteri: comes home tired after 8-10 hours at work, thinks "hmm, what should i do next? read goldenskate of course!"

P.S. Also, serious feedback? Here?

 

[madison]

Usually, their choreo is overcrowded and this diminish the impact of the program. Don't forget that less is more
And a busy choreo might work for skaters with great musicality and skating skills, but this is something isolated.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

If the judges dock skaters in the choreography mark for choreography that's too busy then maybe they would focus more on finesse and actually letting the choreography breathe.

Isn’t this something that’s made up? Where is there any basis for “too busy” choreo in the rulebooks being a deduction? It sure beats flirty or other acting type skills that aren’t even figure skating related that we see in some programs adding to PCS scores. Sure...hold out an edge and let a program breath if it fits your style. Just the same as overwhelm the senses with a brilliant delivery of focus and tenacity. There is no rule that says they all need one particular style to score a specific score is there? That’s a good thing in my opinion.

 

[madison]

I think they are more or less interested in the public opinion about the programs, but more in general terms.... if the public likes the music, the costumes, the overall impression.

 

[madison]

Isn’t this something that’s made up? Where is there any basis for “too busy” choreo in the rulebooks being a deduction? It sure beats flirty or other acting type skills that aren’t even figure skating related that we see in some programs.. Sure...hold out an edge and let a program breath if it fits your style. Just the same as overwhelm the sensors with a brilliant delivery of focus and tenacity. There is no rule that says they all need one particular style to score a specific score isvthere?

Of course, but take it for example Erokhov's next season program, from what Daniil posted. The music is a masterpiece, but it already looked really busy, full of movements, you cannot even enjoy the music, you don't have time to feel the music because the skater passes from a movement to another sometimes, in fact in many cases, it's more - in terms of quantity- than what the music demands.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Isn’t this something that’s made up? Where is there any basis for “too busy” choreo in the rulebooks being a deduction? It sure beats flirty or other acting type skills that aren’t even figure skating related that we see in some programs.. Sure...hold out an edge and let a program breath if it fits your style. Just the same as overwhelm the senses with a brilliant delivery of focus and tenacity. There is no rule that says they all need one particular style to score a specific score is there?

In PCS there are multiple areas where a skater can get docked for a sloppy, half-done or exceedingly busy program. Eg:

- Performance: Clarity of movement, emotional/intellectual involvement (keyword being clarity)

- Transitions: quality of transitions means that transitions should have clear edges, and be neatly executed (including transitions of body movements)

- skating skills - sureness of foot placement; glide; cleanliness of steps and deep edges (which can get compromised if the choreography is too busy)

- Choreography/composition: Unity = purposeful threading of the elements and movements in a program (keyword being purposeful)

- Interpretation: use of finesse to reflect nuances in the music (keyword being finesse)

 

[edge of transition]

'Concerned' Russian skater fans:
"based on my opinion and subjective anecdata, Medvedeva and Zagitova should go get better choreo/coaching".

Real world of ISU competition:
Score PCS consistently in the top 3 of skaters, in each competition (while scoring top 2, in TES & GOE).

What's the maximum delta here - 1 to 3 points between Caro and the top russians?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In PCS there are multiple areas where a skater can get docked for a sloppy, half-done or exceedingly busy program. Eg:

- Performance: Clarity of movement, emotional/intellectual involvement (keyword being clarity)

- Transitions: quality of transitions means that transitions should have clear edges, and be neatly executed (including transitions of body movements)

- skating skills - sureness of foot placement; glide; cleanliness of steps and deep edges (which can get compromised if the choreography is too busy)

- Choreography/composition: Unity = purposeful threading of the elements and movements in a program (keyword being purposeful)

- Interpretation: use of finesse to reflect nuances in the music (keyword being finesse)

Well speaking in general I don’t really think those problems actually apply to very many programs we saw this year. Maybe a brief moment here or there but nothing really noteable.

I’ll go as far to say as I’ve come to notice that starting with a StepSequence is actually adding to a lot of programs. A large portion and maybe the majority of music in figure skating starts soft and builds into varying swells. Just starting off with your hardest jumping pass often times seems contrary to the musical landscape. Not to mention predictable and very common. Meh.

I’m going to leave the generalizing comments to you guys...I prefer to speak in specifs and about specific skaters and assigning comments about sloppy, half done, and exceedingly busy to a large group is not high on my interest meter.

 

[[email protected]]

Bradie Tennell

Gracie Gold

 

[colormyworld240]

Gracie Gold

I don't understand how the concept of NA skaters having better choreo came to be. Imo, of all the NA skaters, only Kaetlyn and Karen have any connection to the music they're skating to. That's 2 of many skaters. But even then, I think their programs are sometimes riddled with crossovers and long set ups for jumps that makes it feel empty, in the case of both their LPs. In the short, I think it works well and showcases their movements. But this is also based on preference; some prefer more choreo packed programs while others prefer less. I think it depends on the program. For ex. I prefer busier choreo for more dynamic music with many cues, quick crescendos and staccatos, like ballets, which is why I think it worked for Alina's programs, and then less busy choreo for more chanson types like Carolina, Kaetlyn, and Karen's SPs. I think lighter choreo doesn't suite more dynamic music, like Kaetlyn's FS, and busy choreo doesn't suit more melodic music, like Evgenia and Alena Kostornaia's SP, and Alina's SP from last season.

And some choreographers only work for some skaters/programs. Shaelynn is amazing but her programs for Radionova are very lacklustre, while her masterpieces this season are Wakaba's programs. Same with Buttle for Kaetlyn's LP, and Wilson for Marin's FS; both have done beautiful pieces but those were not.

As for Eteri's girls, they mostly have Daniil's choreo, which again works for a few skaters/programs but not all of them. Poor Panenkova seems to get the shortest straw when it comes to this.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don't understand how the concept of NA skaters having better choreo came to be. Imo, of all the NA skaters, only Kaetlyn and Karen have any connection to the music they're skating to. That's 2 of many skaters. .

It exists in some people’s minds that way...selective taste and all. I certainly don’t think it’s true. :confused2:

Now hold on a second though with that last part...

https://youtu.be/J0fafIQWxGk

...this girl has gorgeous choreo. Doesn’t matter that she is from US and that her choreo suffered a bit under a Russian coach this season She is a great example that any skater could learn a thing or two from just like our favorite Russian skaters are too

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Our Shade Queen: "I came back to Moscow"

 

[moriel]

Of course, but take it for example Erokhov's next season program, from what Daniil posted. The music is a masterpiece, but it already looked really busy, full of movements, you cannot even enjoy the music, you don't have time to feel the music because the skater passes from a movement to another sometimes, in fact in many cases, it's more - in terms of quantity- than what the music demands.

This depends on personal taste.
For example, I personally find Kostner's programs a snoozefest, since she literally spends most of the program doing jump setups. A few years ago, it was fine as we had no other options, but now that I see programs with almost 0 time spent on jump setups, the programs Kostner does do not appeal to me anymore.

 

[esteticlove]

Agreed. Many times it just looks like they're going through the movements instead of actually performing them. Like Kostornaia's weird spiral with her arm wrapped around it, it's like it's just thrown in there to show she can do it. It was like Lipnitskaia's programs where you'd see a spiral or illusion thrown in there just because. Highlights like those are fine but they have to be highlighted with the music and be completed movements otherwise they just come across as just filler and half hearted. Editing down is a huge issue in many Eteri programs... like they could be so good and skaters could actually develop their performance skills if it didn't look like they were trying to get steps and transitions out of the way because the choreographic movements are so jam packed, and it's not always nice, finessed movements at that.

This is very interesting, I agree that sometimes spirals or movements don't really go along with the music. However, the choreography from Eteri's team is generally matched to the details and accents in the music, even more than the choreos from other famous coaches/choreographers - there are so many examples for it - Tarakanova's ending spin at the SP, Evgenia's pretty much all programs, not to mention Zagitova's or Scherbakova's. And honestly, from my observations, sometimes it takes to watch a program a couple of times to actually see all of the little details and to appreciate them, because there are many many subtle movements etc that compliment every sound in the background.

So, I don't really get it why people keep going after them, telling how bad they are at complementing the music with their choreography because, in my opinion, their team, in comparison to other foreign teams, give extra attention to those things. I am just fed up with those arguments, because in those discussions everyone praises some famous names of choreographers but if we look at the 2017/18 season (only females) they were only 3 ladies with perfectly matched programs alongside Medvedeva and Zagitova, those were Carolina Kostner (SP), Satoko Miyahara (SP) and Wakaba Higuchi (FS). And what about the rest? How good are they if Eteri's programs are that bad?

The thing about details and complexity is that they're only good when they are effective. If a position is half-completed or an edge not held, the detail is a bit useless and the choreography ends up looking like a checklist of movements.

Ok, I kind of understand what bothers you. Yes, their programs are overpacked and is extremely difficult to manage to change all those positions and to pay attention to the actual acting at the same time. However, Eteri's girls tend to improve with every competition . I can give you an example of Medvedeva because she's been on the senior circuit for 3 years. Compare her FS from Worlds in Boston to her Anna Karenina from the Olympics, you will see a huge difference. Do you still think that her movements at her Olympic FS are unfinished?

 

[tars]

Our Shade Queen: "I came back to Moscow"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I5uixqOpH0 :cool14: