2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[JazzUp]

It's so funny that yesterday everyone here was so ready to riot against the judges of Lombardia Trophy because Anna was supposedly underscored while today everyone is cool with it despite Liza was in fact underscored.

PCS got lower by 4 points compared to last year

Anna - PCS 64.32
SS 8.00 TR 7.80 PE 8.20 CO 8.15 IN 8.05

Liza - PCS 64.24
SS 8.05 TR 7.70 PE 8.25 CO 8.10 IN 8.05

Where exactly do you think Liza was underscored this year? And how is her last year score relevant to today's performance?

 

[mathlike]

Same goes to Anna Shcherbakova tho.

I didn't want to go there, because I'm just happy for Anna today, but seriously... How can you compare Liza's sliding from board to board, while twisting her wrists with some smirk on her face with Anna's choreo?
I may agree Shcherbakova gassed out a bit in the second part of the program, but the effort was there throughout the whole skate, she accentuated every pose and line as sharp as she could. Liza didn't even bother to mask her tiredness in the end. I admire her will, zeal and longevity, but in my opinion, she hasn't been taught enough respect to the artistic side of the sport by Mishin.

 

[Tolstoj]

Where exactly do you think Liza was underscored this year? And how is her last year score relevant to today's performance?

I was using the exact same logic you all used here yesterday, which i disagree.

And now we all pretend nobody ever said such things, but you can all go back and read previous pages. LOL

For me personally Liza was underscored only in GOE on certain jumps, i could have seen Liza or Anna winning, it would have not made much difference really.

 

[Mishaminion]

Oh no i'm just using the same exact logic you all used yesterday, which i don't agree.

Anna's transitions into her last 3ltz are nothing all that worthy, the only thing she had over Liza's 3ltz was more speed, but the jumps itself was weaker.

This is a girl who jumps a 4LZ for heavens sake, her 3LZ is pretty good in itself, not "weak" enough to make that much difference and she has the advantage of actually using transitions and not just straight lining in to it. The judges like that, they don't tend to like telegraphing much these days.

 

[JazzUp]

Same goes to Anna Shcherbakova tho.

It was not a question of Anna's "last year scores" etc, but her SP being heavily underscored with no apparent reason.

 

[JazzUp]

And now we all pretend nobody ever said such things, but you can all go back and read previous pages. LOL

So you can't actually back anything up. LOL.

 

[colormyworld240]

Anna did so well today, I love firebird on her.

To clear up the confusion, and I speak for myself only: The outrage for Anna's SP PCS being lower than her scores last season were because I think she has the better program this season and the program has more complex interpretation. Why I'm not outraged with Liza's reduction in PCS compared to last season is because I think she has a worse program with less inspired PE/IN. I don't think her SS/TR changed, though. And the biggest outrage of how they're scored compared to each other - I think Anna is a far superior artist and performer.

And Liza's layout is so frustrating. I wonder what's going on with her jumps - does she have a lot of trouble with some of them? Why are there still 2As in her program, when it's obvious replacing them with the 3A maximizes her TES (which is her advantage - her jumps are gorgeous). I'd be all for Liza winning the competition on her TES, and do think she was lowballed in GOE (as I think Anna is lowballed in PCS) but she needs to maximize her layout.

 

[Mishaminion]

It's best if judges stayed well away from 'appropriateness' of themes and images. Seniors are seniors, there is no such thing as 'theme ratings' in the ISU rules.

It's the objective artistry that matters, and in this I see no reason to deduct Anna, none at all!

Nor Kseniya in this case. In a sense I am pleased the choreographers stage a mature theme for young senior skaters. Kseniya must have read the poems, discussed them with her trainer and choreographer and committed herself to convey the staged image in the proper way as best as she can. Bubbly and bouncy but otherwise empty routines are IMO best left to range skaters like Kurakova or Samodurova.

And while on this matter, where did the Strange Fruit routine go? Wasn't it supposed to be performed at this stage? The inappropriateness of that music choice is of a whole different order.

Maybe it is a case of not thinking a 15 year old is able to interpret such a theme adequately, which I sort of have to agree with. Out of all the top skaters in the SP, Anna did come across as the more childlike, fragile innocent little girl type. Perhaps because she is. I think giving her a more mature theme might work against her at this point, she is still 15 and is still so tiny and wispy even compared to her first year Senior teammates Sasha and Alyona.

 

[Tolstoj]

So you can't actually back anything up. LOL.

Is it so difficult to understand?

Here's what happened:

1. Anna was second after the SP

- Everyone here (and not just here) was mad at judges throwing all sorts of conspiracy theories, because score was significantly lower than what Anna got in juniors (despite you should never make such comparison)

2. Anna won in the FP and overall, Liza had the exact same issue of Anna.

- Suddenly we are all cool with that because our favourite won.

I just wish all this hypocrisis to stop

A) You should never compare scores between different competitions that applies to any skater, Eteri's skaters included.

B) If you say "that's because judges didn't like Liza's FP" well the exact same could be said for Anna's SP, and maybe that's the reason, maybe they don't like both programs.

 

[Finley]

By conspiracy you are suggesting this particular group of judges agreed to lowball Anna specifically, in favour of Liza... because?
For &$#@s and giggles?

Because they can and for some reason they wanted to.

Potential reasons range from anything including, but not limited to, - prior agreement, personal preference, upholding the pecking order, deference to a former World Champ, respect to an honored coach, etc. If you want me to be a little more creative there is always - trading favors, promoting agendas, maintaining the status quo as they see it, bribery. Who knows?

I don't really care about their motivations and intentions. I'm sure their reasons make perfect sense to them. I'm just not thrilled about it.

If you believe it's all random and a complete coincidence then nothing I can say will change your mind. We can agree to disagree.

 

[theharleyquinn]

Anna did so well today, I love firebird on her.

To clear up the confusion, and I speak for myself only: The outrage for Anna's SP PCS being lower than her scores last season were because I think she has the better program this season and the program has more complex interpretation. Why I'm not outraged with Liza's reduction in PCS compared to last season is because I think she has a worse program with less inspired PE/IN. I don't think her SS/TR changed, though.

And Liza's layout is so frustrating. I wonder what's going on with her jumps - does she have a lot of trouble with some of them? Why are there still 2As in her program, when it's obvious replacing them with the 3A maximizes her TES (which is her advantage - her jumps are gorgeous). I'd be all for Liza winning the competition on her TES, and do think she was lowballed in GOE (as I think Anna is lowballed in PCS) but she needs to maximize her layout.

I agree with this although I would also add that Liza does a lot of two-footed skating and has consistently done so. She is also relatively slow, which I would also dock her for in SS (probably lower than what she's already given).

But to the second point, her layout was so confusing in the FS. No 3F3T or even a 3T3T. She has a recurring turnout problem on her 3A, so I don't understand why they would prioritize a combo there instead of establishing a high BV triple triple that she could get good GOE with.

 

[JazzUp]

- Everyone here (and not just here) was mad at judges because score was significantly lower than what Anna got in juniors (despite you should never make such comparison)

The problem was not with the last years junior score, but with blatant underscoring of the current SP performance.

2. Anna won in the SP, Liza had the exact same issue of Anna in the SP

Liza in her FS was not underscored in any way similar to Anna in her SP.

 

[Mishaminion]

Because they can and for some reason they wanted to.

Potential reasons range from anything including, but not limited to, - prior agreement, personal preference, upholding the pecking order, deference to a former World Champ, respect to an honored coach, etc. If you want me to be a little more creative there is always - trading favors, promoting agendas, maintaining the status quo as they see it, bribery. Who knows?

I don't really care about their motivations and intentions. I'm sure their reasons make perfect sense to them. I'm just not thrilled about it.

If you believe it's all random and a complete coincidence then nothing I can say will change your mind. We can agree to disagree.

I'm not one for screaming "conspiracy" at absolutely everything that's all. There's lots of reasons for things without them being a conspiracy also.

I personally don't like Anna's SP as much as her LP, I also think she was slower, wobbly in parts and quite hesitant. If I had been a judge (SO glad I'm not LOL), my scoring might also have reflected that, independent of any other judge.

 

[cell]

I actually haven't seen the Perfume movie and while it may be inappropriate for a 15 year old, I don't see what that has to do with Anna's interpretation of the music... the program is about the tension and darkness of the music as much as it is about anything inappropriate...

 

[Tolstoj]

The problem was not with the last years junior score, but with blatant underscoring of the current SP performance.




Liza in her FS was not underscored in any way similar to Anna in her SP.

That's so subjective.

Anna's theme for the SP could be seen as inappropriate, and she was a little slower compared to the free.

 

[silveruskate]

So there has been no comment on Anna's 4Lz being clearly under? Interesting.

 

[Tolstoj]

I actually haven't seen the Perfume movie and while it may be inappropriate for a 15 year old, I don't see what that has to do with Anna's interpretation of the music

It's about a man who kills his lovers. I'm not sure if Anna is supposed to portray the assassin or the dead women, i guess the second, which would be the usual theme about a ghost on the ice (a bit like Evgenia's SP at the Olympics)

It's also about creating the essence (perfume) of a human being.

Great movie but yes i wouldn't recommend it to a 15 years old.

That said i really like her free program like i said already after the Test Skates.

 

[Jontor]

ISU's inofficial ranking list has been updated: http://www.isuresults.com/events/jgp2019/jgpsladies.htm
Is it correct?

What are your ideas over the remaining 3x2 assignments?
Sinitsyna and Usachyova are still very much in the race to earn a start in JGPF.

Sinitsyna and Usachova will probably make it with Silvers and good scores, though Gold in their stages is not impossible.

Vasil'yeva and Tarakanova next week in Gdansk will need a Gold to get the 26 points of last year's cutoff Otherwise one of them best substituted with Frolova?? Frolova's chances of winning Silver there??

Tarusina, and Kanysheva, are most likely out of the race. Unless Kanysheva is completely healthy, will they risk her for a chance at SB in Gdansk?

Well, I am worried that Russia is running out of Juniors to compete! If Kanysheva and Tarusina is injured, they are probably out. We still have Frolova. But then what if someone else gets injured?

Valieva is clear for JGPF, but the others still have a tough way to go. In Gdansk the Russians will probably fight for silver and bronze, but who else is there? A lot of really good Japanese and Korean skaters are left too. If Vasilieva skate like she did today then I think she can grab the silver. That means Tarakanova is probably out for JGPF.

I loooved Sinitsyna today and I hope she will also q to JGPF.

The rest of the JGPF spots are very uncertain at the moment. Maybe it will only be Sinitsyna and Valieva there for Russia??

 

[Jontor]

So there has been no comment on Anna's 4Lz being clearly under? Interesting.

It was less then 90. So it was not.

 

[Finley]

And people keep pointing out that reputation scoring is as old as figure skating competition itself. In an ideal world perhaps it shouldn't be but it is and is often the case with all subjectively judged sports.

Just be grateful it's not 6.0 anymore.

It is, but things don't get better by being left alone in silence. Change comes excruciatingly slowly but the only reason it happens at all is because someone somewhere spoke up.

I'll be the first to admit that not all change is good. Some of the changes in gymnastics have ruined my enjoyment of the sport and now I barely watch it.

I hope I never feel that way about skating.

I remember reading a book (maybe Scott Hamilton's bio) where he talked about reputation scoring and how he felt it was fair because you earned it by waiting your turn, putting in the time and proving yourself. Some day the time would come when the judges would hold you up when you didn't have your best skate.

I can see his point, but also the other side of it. Holding someone up always comes at the expense of others. Maybe some of those others couldn't stay in the sport long enough to see the benefits of waiting their turn.

Anyway, 6.0 is gone. Long live fair and unbiased judging!