2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

[el henry]

i wonder if she felt she couldn't trust Frank enough to tell him. i believe i've read he's made comments before about eating when he coached Evan and Michelle but i could be wrong. maybe that's why?

I think I have read that Frank made comments that were typical, very unfortunately, of now discredited thinking regarding weight way back in the day, as with Linda Fratianne.

My understanding is that he has changed with the times and now understands that such tactics hurt more than help. In fact, Dice Murakami credited Frank with saving his life (for real, that’s why he said) when Frank sent him to a nutritionist to learn healthy eating. Dice had been, he said, sometimes just drinking a cup of coffee a day, to meet the weight goals of his former coach.:shocked:

Long story short, I think by the time Gracie was with Frank, his opinions on weight were not the issue. My complete and totally unsupported speculation would be that Frank was a man in his late 70s, Gracie was a young woman in turmoil, and he would not be a natural confidante.

But I have no real idea

 

[Nigel]

It's great to see Rachael Flatt's update on her life. I've always wondered why someone would opt for a Masters and PhD in Psychology rather than become an MD Psychiatrist?

most PhD programs allow for some level of scholarship or stipend support from the university, and depending on the program and the quality of the candidate, tuition may be paid for as well....., and there is the opportunity to write NIH, NSF grants etc. .....and if all those things come in to play, perhaps looking at the $250,000 cost of medical school could be a deciding factor ;-)

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

i wonder if she felt she couldn't trust Frank enough to tell him. i believe i've read he's made comments before about eating when he coached Evan and Michelle but i could be wrong. maybe that's why?

Frank said that back in the day when pretty much every coach did, as in when Fratianne trained with him. Nothing I know personally of Michelle or Evan having remarks made to them, he has changed since he started coaching and knew what wasn't proper. And he's helped Dai T. and Denis Ten when they trained with him as far as nutrition and healthy lifestyle changes. Evan actually put on healthy weight and muscle in his time training with Carroll.

Frank wasn't the issue.

 

[brightphoton]

Yes, kind, understanding, empathetic coach Frank Carroll. Why wouldn't Gracie open up to him? I'm sure he's understanding of people who are going through mental health issues. Remember how he helped his former student, two-time world medalist Christopher Bowman?

When Bowman won the silver medal at the World Championships in 1989, Carroll, for one, was torn between feeling proud and guilty. "I remember people coming up to me and congratulating me, saying 'Oh, your boy is wonderful, we just love watching him, and he has so much charisma,'" says Carroll. "But inside I was just dying, I was in so much pain because I hadn't seen him for weeks before we left, and the program he was doing — I felt like it was not what this boy could do. I was really in despair because he was also doing drugs."

...

"Frustrated at not being able to help Bowman, Carroll decided to cut off all contact with the skater. "I felt that I needed to use a tough love approach, that if I didn't help him, didn't enable him, that it was a statement that you have to stop doing drugs if you want me in your life," says Carroll.

Despite the rebuffs, Bowman continued to email his coach, imploring him at one point just about six months ago, "Come on, Frank, give in."

And then the news of his death broke.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1703048,00.html


I know what you're going to say. Yes, he released Michelle and her sister Karen Kwan's weight to NBC so they could be broadcasted all over the nation, and remind everyone how thin they were. Yes, he was cold to Bowman. But that was in the 1990s and 2000s. He's changed, and for the bett--

The venerable Frank Carroll, emerged through the curtains backstage at the U.S. national championships holding Gold’s black warm-up vest. He was on a mission. He was looking for a trash can.

Moments later, he found one, and stuffed the vest into it.

“That’s what I was told to do,” Carroll said curtly. “I asked her what she wanted me to do with it and she said, ‘Throw it away,’ so that’s what I did.”

...

A few minutes after Carroll threw her vest away, [Gracie] went back and quietly fished it out.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...old-meltdown-caps-lackluster-season/96925948/

 

[Skater Boy]

most PhD programs allow for some level of scholarship or stipend support from the university, and depending on the program and the quality of the candidate, tuition may be paid for as well....., and there is the opportunity to write NIH, NSH grants etc. .....and if all those things come in to play, perhaps looking at the $250,000 cost of medical school could be a deciding factor ;-)

Whatever her reason good for Rachel! There is life after skating

 

[Skater Boy]

Yes, kind, understanding, empathetic coach Frank Carroll. Why wouldn't Gracie open up to him? I'm sure he's understanding of people who are going through mental health issues. Remember how he helped his former student, two-time world medalist Christopher Bowman?

When Bowman won the silver medal at the World Championships in 1989, Carroll, for one, was torn between feeling proud and guilty. "I remember people coming up to me and congratulating me, saying 'Oh, your boy is wonderful, we just love watching him, and he has so much charisma,'" says Carroll. "But inside I was just dying, I was in so much pain because I hadn't seen him for weeks before we left, and the program he was doing — I felt like it was not what this boy could do. I was really in despair because he was also doing drugs."

...

"Frustrated at not being able to help Bowman, Carroll decided to cut off all contact with the skater. "I felt that I needed to use a tough love approach, that if I didn't help him, didn't enable him, that it was a statement that you have to stop doing drugs if you want me in your life," says Carroll.

Despite the rebuffs, Bowman continued to email his coach, imploring him at one point just about six months ago, "Come on, Frank, give in."

And then the news of his death broke.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1703048,00.html


I know what you're going to say. Yes, he released Michelle and her sister Karen Kwan's weight to NBC so they could be broadcasted all over the nation, and remind everyone how thin they were. Yes, he was cold to Bowman. But that was in the 1990s and 2000s. He's changed, and for the bett--

The venerable Frank Carroll, emerged through the curtains backstage at the U.S. national championships holding Gold’s black warm-up vest. He was on a mission. He was looking for a trash can.

Moments later, he found one, and stuffed the vest into it.

“That’s what I was told to do,” Carroll said curtly. “I asked her what she wanted me to do with it and she said, ‘Throw it away,’ so that’s what I did.”

...

A few minutes after Carroll threw her vest away, [Gracie] went back and quietly fished it out.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...old-meltdown-caps-lackluster-season/96925948/

Whatever the situation I hope Gracie can get some peace. You have to give her credit and admire her courage. It would be hard for anyone to be the darling of the skating world or at least in the US which is huge and then left struggling to get to Nationals and landng jumps and completing spins that were once so easy. I hope Gracie can enjoy the journey even if it ends not as she may have wished I hope whoever is around her coaches, choreographers, friends and family that they are supportive and give her what she needs.

 

[el henry]

Whole post

I’m sorry, all this has done is prove to me that I was correct in my original assessment of Frank Carroll

No one said Frank was Mr. Warm and Fuzzy, that’s a straw person. We did say that his attitudes toward healthy eating and weight have evolved with the times. And they have :yes:

But since the example was brought up, no one loved Christopher Bowman back in the day more than I did, or at the time, was amused by his antics. Knowing what I know now, I am *amazed* that Frank tried to train him and help him for as long as Frank did. Even Toller couldn’t put up with Christopher’s crap.:eeking:

And anyone, anyone who has been hurt by another person’s addiction would completely understand Frank’s reaction toward contacts from Bowman. I know I do.

The incident with the jacket is well known. That has Jackson B. Squat to do with Frank Carroll’s attitude toward weight and healthy eating, which was the original query.

Frank is not the coach for everyone. No one is the coach for everyone. And hopefully Gracie is with the best coach for her now. I will trust her to make that decision.

 

[Tavi...]

Yes, kind, understanding, empathetic coach Frank Carroll. Why wouldn't Gracie open up to him? I'm sure he's understanding of people who are going through mental health issues. Remember how he helped his former student, two-time world medalist Christopher Bowman?

When Bowman won the silver medal at the World Championships in 1989, Carroll, for one, was torn between feeling proud and guilty. "I remember people coming up to me and congratulating me, saying 'Oh, your boy is wonderful, we just love watching him, and he has so much charisma,'" says Carroll. "But inside I was just dying, I was in so much pain because I hadn't seen him for weeks before we left, and the program he was doing — I felt like it was not what this boy could do. I was really in despair because he was also doing drugs."

...

"Frustrated at not being able to help Bowman, Carroll decided to cut off all contact with the skater. "I felt that I needed to use a tough love approach, that if I didn't help him, didn't enable him, that it was a statement that you have to stop doing drugs if you want me in your life," says Carroll.

Despite the rebuffs, Bowman continued to email his coach, imploring him at one point just about six months ago, "Come on, Frank, give in."

And then the news of his death broke.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1703048,00.html


I know what you're going to say. Yes, he released Michelle and her sister Karen Kwan's weight to NBC so they could be broadcasted all over the nation, and remind everyone how thin they were. Yes, he was cold to Bowman. But that was in the 1990s and 2000s. He's changed, and for the bett--

The venerable Frank Carroll, emerged through the curtains backstage at the U.S. national championships holding Gold’s black warm-up vest. He was on a mission. He was looking for a trash can.

Moments later, he found one, and stuffed the vest into it.

“That’s what I was told to do,” Carroll said curtly. “I asked her what she wanted me to do with it and she said, ‘Throw it away,’ so that’s what I did.”

...

A few minutes after Carroll threw her vest away, [Gracie] went back and quietly fished it out.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...old-meltdown-caps-lackluster-season/96925948/

Erm. You almost certainly don’t know the entirety of what went on between Frank Carroll and any of the skaters you mentioned. Perhaps you shouldn’t judge.

 

[readernick]

I’m sorry, all this has done is prove to me that I was correct in my original assessment of Frank Carroll

No one said Frank was Mr. Warm and Fuzzy, that’s a straw person. We did say that his attitudes toward healthy eating and weight have evolved with the times. And they have :yes:

But since the example was brought up, no one loved Christopher Bowman back in the day more than I did, or at the time, was amused by his antics. Knowing what I know now, I am *amazed* that Frank tried to train him and help him for as long as Frank did. Even Toller couldn’t put up with Christopher’s crap.:eeking:

And anyone, anyone who has been hurt by another person’s addiction would completely understand Frank’s reaction toward contacts from Bowman. I know I do.

The incident with the jacket is well known. That has Jackson B. Squat to do with Frank Carroll’s attitude toward weight and healthy eating, which was the original query.

Frank is not the coach for everyone. No one is the coach for everyone. And hopefully Gracie is with the best coach for her now. I will trust her to make that decision.

Agree.

Anyone with an addict in the family or a close friend who is an addict understands that sometimes you have to cut people off so as not to support their addiction. And, to save yourself. Frank's ignoring Bowman's messages is a completely rationally reaction.

I don't think Frank Carroll seems like the type of coach you would be close friends with. He seems very businesslike. I would like that type of coach because I enjoy separation between work and life.
But, some people would benefit from someone more personable. I don't think he would be a young girl's first choice as a confidant but I do think he had a healthy view to nutrition later in his career.

It was Gracie's former coach who made comments about her weight that started the problems. We all know who that is.... but it is a common issue in figure skating. Many skaters ( probably most) get weighed in each week. Any weight gain could lead to consequences for them.... if the coach doesn't provide nutritional advice.. this can lead to dangerous habits. I think it is wiser for coaches to focus on strength to weight ratios.

 

[LiamForeman]

But since the example was brought up, no one loved Christopher Bowman back in the day more than I did, or at the time, was amused by his antics. Knowing what I know now, I am *amazed* that Frank tried to train him and help him for as long as Frank did. Even Toller couldn’t put up with Christopher’s crap.:eeking:

And anyone, anyone who has been hurt by another person’s addiction would completely understand Frank’s reaction toward contacts from Bowman. I know I do.

I think Frank handled Bowman the only way he could by cutting him off. That's how I would have and have done with others who were addicted to drugs. It is devastating because unless you are an addict yourself you just don't understand WHY they continue on that track. Especially someone as talented as Bowman. I suppose there is a great deal for me to learn, but I'd say "Go to rehab and get better. Don't lie to or steal from me ever again. And pull yourself together." If they can't do that, I still would just check out on the situation. Probably makes me a rather unkind person, but that's all I'm capable of. So I'm behind Frank Carroll on that.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Agree.

Anyone with an addict in the family or a close friend who is an addict understands that sometimes you have to cut people off so as not to support their addiction. And, to save yourself. Frank's ignoring Bowman's messages is a completely rationally reaction.

I don't think Frank Carroll seems like the type of coach you would be close friends with. He seems very businesslike. I would like that type of coach because I enjoy separation between work and life.
But, some people would benefit from someone more personable. I don't think he would be a young girl's first choice as a confidant but I do think he had a healthy view to nutrition later in his career.

It was Gracie's former coach who made comments about her weight that started the problems. We all know who that is.... but it is a common issue in figure skating. Many skaters ( probably most) get weighed in each week. Any weight gain could lead to consequences for them.... if the coach doesn't provide nutritional advice.. this can lead to dangerous habits. I think it is wiser for coaches to focus on strength to weight ratios.

There actually are many former students Frank is friends with. He also said somewhere (an article or memoir IIRC, that he still feels bad to this day over what happened to and with Christopher Bowman).

Gracie went to work with Alex O alot with jumps and everything before she had her full on break down. So no one can say that it was Frank causing her weight issues. It could have been anyone or anything she was dealing with.

 

[brightphoton]

If my loved one was suffering from addiction, I'd try my best to get them to rehab, therapy, medical treatment, whatever. And until they got the healthcare they needed, offer them a relatively safe and stable situation, whether it be roof over the heads, meals, general support. Not "cut u off, tough love bai."

When Gracie was suffering from an eating disorder, she needed support, not being cut off. It's the same for drug addiction, even if it's not as sympathetic a condition.

 

[natsulian]

If Gracie entering ONE competition can generate this much interest and conversation, imagine what it will be like in one or two years from now? 1,000 pages in a few months...

Jest aside, more power to Gracie for doing what she can in her current condition. Upwards and onwards from here, right? Also, kudos to people who are constructively criticizing and not bashing. Figure skating conversations can be very engaging and fun when people act maturely.

 

[readernick]

If my loved one was suffering from addiction, I'd try my best to get them to rehab, therapy, medical treatment, whatever. And until they got the healthcare they needed, offer them a relatively safe and stable situation, whether it be roof over the heads, meals, general support. Not "cut u off, tough love bai."

When Gracie was suffering from an eating disorder, she needed support, not being cut off. It's the same for drug addiction, even if it's not as sympathetic a condition.

Would you? Have you actually experienced the pain of having a loved one undergo addiction? Because If you haven't, I suggest you aren't so judgmental. You sound like someone with no experience of dealing with those who are addicted. People under the control of addiction, lie to, cheat, and hurt those who love them. Loved ones go through years of trying to help, often without results. They get their money stolen, their hopes crushed and and their energy used up by the addict. Eventually they often realize that there is nothing they can do to change the other person, and realize other people in their lives deserve their love and attention. I speak from experience. I believe Frank Carroll tried to help for years. As human, we have limits. Don't sit in your high horse in judgement.

 

[medoroa]

It's not helpful to claim that an adult suffering from addiction is the personal responsibility of friends and family. In fact, it's probably the direct opposite of constructive.

Anyway I can't wait to see Bradie at SA! She hasn't premiered her SP anywhere yet, has she? Her FS was sweeping and big and beautiful, but her SP music seems a bit more edgy and rhythmic like the music she used last season. Her range has improved so much and I hope she can go clean to get a bit of a PCS boost.

 

[brightphoton]

Gracie's own father, Dr. Gold, has had his troubles with drug addiction, which resulted in a (most likely temporary) suspicion of his medical license. Usually in cases like these, as long as he shows he's gone though rehab, the board will re-instate his license and he'll be good as new.

When Gracie had depression and an eating disorder, her family showed understanding and support, and hopefully they treated Papa Gold the same way. Or I don't know, maybe they shunned and cut him off, but that approach didn't work for Bowman.

https://www.sj-r.com/news/20170528/...er-fighting-to-get-medical-license-reinstated

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Gracie's own father, Dr. Gold, has had his troubles with drug addiction, which resulted in a (most likely temporary) suspicion of his medical license. Usually in cases like these, as long as he shows he's gone though rehab, the board will re-instate his license and he'll be good as new.

When Gracie had depression and an eating disorder, her family showed understanding and support, and hopefully they treated Papa Gold the same way. Or I don't know, maybe they shunned and cut him off, but that approach didn't work for Bowman.

https://www.sj-r.com/news/20170528/...er-fighting-to-get-medical-license-reinstated

Wow, bringing this up is kind of rude. Especially since this was all happening at the same time and likely contributed to Gracie's issues. No one really knows but her and her therapist and we need to leave it that way.

 

[brightphoton]

See, that is exactly my point though. Therapy is useful, people should have therapists. That's considered getting help. Never talking to someone ever again isn't "helping" that person. Throwing someones TeamUSA jacket away isn't helpful. Maybe some can call it "tough love" or "business only attitude" but it's just wrong, to me.

Furthermore, he shouldn't complain that Gracie didn't come to him with her problems. Why would he even blame Gracie for that? In many interviews, she often said things, I paraphrase, I made so many cries for help and no one noticed. Frank should have said something like, "I wish I had noticed the signs and gotten Gracie help."

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

See, that is exactly my point though. Therapy is useful, people should have therapists. That's considered getting help. Never talking to someone ever again isn't "helping" that person. Throwing someones TeamUSA jacket away isn't helpful. Maybe some can call it "tough love" or "business only attitude" but it's just wrong, to me.

Furthermore, he shouldn't complain that Gracie didn't come to him with her problems. Why would he even blame Gracie for that? In many interviews, she often said things, I paraphrase, I made so many cries for help and no one noticed. Frank should have said something like, "I wish I had noticed the signs and gotten Gracie help."

Can one stop blaming Frank for the end of the world and everyone's mental state?! You keep bringing this around and around and twisting it different ways to fit a so-called agenda. One you nor others know the answers to.

Just drop it and let it go.


Can we go back to talking about the other ladies of the USFS? Please?

 

[KatGrace1925]

Can one stop blaming Frank for the end of the world and everyone's mental state?! You keep bringing this around and around and twisting it different ways to fit a so-called agenda. One you nor others know the answers to.

Just drop it and let it go.


Can we go back to talking about the other ladies of the USFS? Please?

I agree, let’s talk about Skate America coming up, all the wonderful USFS ladies who are working hard this year. There is no point in rehashing the same old issues that have been picked apart for years.

We’re not in 2016/17 anymore. It’s 2019 and it’s an exciting new fresh season.