Women and the Quad

[Baron Vladimir]

I'd say that doing it badly and hurriedly only in hopes of getting a higher GOE on the jump would make it a meaningless transition.

Doing it well, in relation to the music and the overall patterning of the program, would make it meaningful . . . and would therefore be more likely to inspire judges to actually raise the GOE of the jump and also to reward it in several program components.

Yeah, I really don't know which special connection Charlotte spiral can have with the idea behind the programme, beside to be well timed with the music. We can take any other spiral and i don't see how any type of it can be connected with the character or the story/general mood/idea behind the programme. Every spiral is a move in the field and meaning of them in first place is to show skater's flexibility/extension/body movements and/or blades work. In Alina's case specificaly the meaning of the move is to be transitional one - it is not performed as a required element/ Choreo/Spiral sequence - but as a part of the pattern (and i would say very original one with whom she fullfills another Compositions criteria as it is Multidimensional use of space) to help her get in another part of the ice rink where she needs to perform one of her required element/jump. It also can count as a difficult entry into the jump.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

The vast majority of men do not do transitions into their quads. Yes transitions make the jump harder but it is a single GOE bullet. And it’s not worth doing transitions into a quad or any jump if it compromises the jump having a good landing and looking effortless.

Trusova has long preparation into her quad toe. But that’s fine... before she did a lazy spiral just for the sake of it and it wasn’t effective and it probably messed up the success rate. Not every jump element needs to have a transition before it especially the big ticket ones that need more speed and flow to execute properly. A skater is being foolish if they add difficult transitions that compromise the success rate, speed, and landing/overall quality of the jump.

I know I'm kind of late for this, but I was replying to a comment calling Liza's 4T better than the top men.
I dont think she needs to add a transition to it. But it would make more impressive. Landing a quad in itself is an accomplishment. She should definitely land it in competition before thinking of complicating the entrance.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

I am not crazy about transitions for the sake of transitions. They are very effective when integrated beautifully within the program together with the jumps.
For example, Lipnitskaya's Shindler's List was a complete piece where everything was woven together. She was telling a story and she would jump out of the blue. You almost wouldn't notice when she jumped. But that's very difficult to achieve even with triples and almost impossible with quads as they take longer set up time. Maybe one day, when they are as easy as triples for most skaters.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

I am not crazy about transitions for the sake of transitions. They are very effected when integrated beautifully within the program together with the jumps.
For example, Lipnitskaya's Shindler's List was a complete piece where everything was woven together. She was telling a story and she would jump out of the blue. You almost wouldn't notice when she jumped. But that's very difficult to achieve even with triples and almost impossible with quads as they take longer set up time. Maybe one day, when they are as easy as triples for most skaters.

Maybe it's not about the transitions just the long entrance. I don't know, I'm just not a fan of telegraphed jumps I guess. It takes me out of the program

 

[Krislite]

This is mind-boggling to see the sudden emergence of quads among that top ladies skaters. I can't believe that even with Kostornaia, Tuktamysheva and Kihira's triple Axels they're feeling the pressure to add quads to the program to keep up...

 

[Arbitrary]

This is mind-boggling to see the sudden emergence of quads among that top ladies skaters. I can't believe that even with Kostornaia, Tuktamysheva and Kihira's triple Axels they're feeling the pressure to add quads to the program to keep up...

The PCS happiness is volatile. Today your PCS are enough to compensate the lack of daredevilness, but tomorrow you're thrown off the podium.

I read some interesting opinion of the FSO forum right after TUKT landed her 4T in practice:
- So we can see now a real quad for the lady, not those fake quads from TUT girls.

Do we consider all those quads amassed so far all fake?

 

[jenm]

The PCS happiness is volatile. Today your PCS are enough to compensate the lack of daredevilness, but tomorrow you're thrown off the podium.

I read some interesting opinion of the FSO forum right after TUKT landed her 4T in practice:
- So we can see now a real quad for the lady, not those fake quads from TUT girls.

Do we consider all those quads amassed so far all fake?

But Sasha's 4T is awesome. not much flow out but the height is unbelievable, almost like when Midori Ito did her 3As. (of course Midori's was better but still) I'd say it's better than Liza's.
If we're nitpicking quads, then I'd say Anna's quad Lutzes are the most suspect. Too much pre-rotation and shallow outside to flat edge. Her takeoff is scary sometimes.

 

[jenm]

I love that Liza's determined to not get buried in this era of quad and 3a jumpers.
But I'd be more excited if she works on the rest of her program. She's like Ashley in that way. Excellent performers but falling short on SS, spins, and difficult combos.

 

[Arbitrary]

But Sasha's 4T is awesome. not much flow out but the height is unbelievable, almost like when Midori Ito did her 3As. (of course Midori's was better but still) I'd say it's better than Liza's.
If we're nitpicking quads, then I'd say Anna's quad Lutzes are the most suspect. Too much pre-rotation and shallow outside to flat edge. Her takeoff is scary sometimes.

Sasha does her quads like Stojko, Urmanov, Kulik and others did. With a long prep.
I have nothing against this technique so, as because the Ladies of Quad are still not so much common. Like men were 20y ago.

 

[jenaj]

If you really think that Charlotte spiral is a meaningless move on the ice, we must be watching a different sport. Or you have a problem with it just when it is by being a well know element also an entry into another element or connection between the elements :dumb:

It's meaningless if it's just there to get points. Here is an example of a well-placed Charlotte spiral. https://youtu.be/lsQbrwqNE0A?t=190 We never see things like this anymore.

 

[theharleyquinn]

This is just my opinion, but the Charlotte spiral is just aesthetically not pleasing and sometimes translates strangely as a musically interpretive move. The skater disconnects from the audience because they're looking down, and the alignment can often be off if the skater isn't in a straight line. It's less forgiving than a lot of other spiral positions. Sasha Cohen had good ones, but even then, they're just not to my taste.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

It's meaningless if it's just there to get points. Here is an example of a well-placed Charlotte spiral. https://youtu.be/lsQbrwqNE0A?t=190 We never see things like this anymore.

Well every element is there to get you points. If that is not the case skaters would not jump triple and quads, but only doubles. The difference between those two spirals is that in one case spiral is a part of a choreo sequence and in second case is a part of the steps/pattern which leads to the jump. While in first case spiral is there to be a highlighted part of the program, in second case is originaly integriated as a connectional move. And actually it is Michelle case where spiral is there to get you points for spiral per se (choreo sequence).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I love that Liza's determined to not get buried in this era of quad and 3a jumpers.
But I'd be more excited if she works on the rest of her program. She's like Ashley in that way. Excellent performers but falling short on SS, spins, and difficult combos.

I'd like that too, but I guess it might be easier for her to add difficult jumps than improve her artistry, given her solid jump technique.

 

[Mawwerg]

Quads count: 80

Thanks to Philip Hersh's article I've found one more Alysa's attempt.

 

[ladyjane]

I used to be a fan of the men's...they had quads. It was fascinating to watch the likes of Stojko, Kulik, Yagudin, Pluschenko and many others (Timothy Goebel any one?), and then I lost interest because of the Splat fests. I still love a men's programme performed cleanly, even without the quads. They're no longer the great appeal (though they used to be...and a well landed quad loop can still make me salivate). As long as there are no falls, and there is beautiful skating I will enjoy it. I never did get the negativism about Lysacek not having a quad. He had a wonderful skate at the OG's. And even though I agreed that that there should probably have been a quad, I enjoyed it that beautiful skating won in the end. It wasn't as if Evan was dong doubles...

Ladies was never my thing, except for a few favourites...like Kwan and Slutskaya. My interest grew with Asada and Kim, with Rochette and Osborn (who had these soaring jumps), and then of course the triple axel. And now the quads. Happy though I am that ladies are finally getting there, I so much fear the splat fests to come....

Don't get me wrong. I like a bit of progress and revolution technically even if I don't always agree with the PCS marks. But looking ahead and seeing the ladies become another splat fest with ladies winning with two or three falls, just because they've got some quads, is a bit depressing.

I don't want to stop the development (how could I) just wish I could pass over the transitional phase with all the ladies trying things and not succeeding. We'll have talks about inconsistent men and ladies, not just the men. Argh!

Guess I'll stick to pairs and Ice Dance.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Don't get me wrong. I like a bit of progress and revolution technically even if I don't always agree with the PCS marks. But looking ahead and seeing the ladies become another splat fest with ladies winning with two or three falls, just because they've got some quads, is a bit depressing.

I don't want to stop the development (how could I) just wish I could pass over the transitional phase with all the ladies trying things and not succeeding. We'll have talks about inconsistent men and ladies, not just the men. Argh!

Remarkably, those skaters attempting the 3A and beyond are surprisingly consistent with them, and I don't think any of them are below a 50% success rate. Alena K. has not fallen on the 3A in eight attempts. I think Anna has landed all five of her 4Lz tries this season. Liza's and Rika's 3A have been mostly solid, and I don't recall Alysa missing a 3A or 4Lz (although she may have). I remember one fall from Kamila and a few from Sasha, but otherwise these women have been very successful with what they're attempting.

 

[Amei]

Ladies was never my thing, except for a few favourites...like Kwan and Slutskaya. My interest grew with Asada and Kim, with Rochette and Osborn (who had these soaring jumps), and then of course the triple axel. And now the quads. Happy though I am that ladies are finally getting there, I so much fear the splat fests to come....

Don't get me wrong. I like a bit of progress and revolution technically even if I don't always agree with the PCS marks. But looking ahead and seeing the ladies become another splat fest with ladies winning with two or three falls, just because they've got some quads, is a bit depressing.

I don't want to stop the development (how could I) just wish I could pass over the transitional phase with all the ladies trying things and not succeeding. We'll have talks about inconsistent men and ladies, not just the men. Argh!

Guess I'll stick to pairs and Ice Dance.

While the quads/multiple triple axels (more than 1 skater doing the jump) is in its infancy yes we are going to see some competitions like Trusova at GP Russia win with multiple falls - but that's going to lessen and there's a good chance that it doesn't affect the 'big competitions' - Europeans/Worlds. Using GP Russia because that is the event this season where that occurred: Trusova won because she is able to do the quads she lands with pretty decent quality that would be competitive in the men's competition and there were no other skaters at the competition doing quads or triple axels and we all know she was at home and that means getting some generous scoring (like most skaters get when they skate at home). If Trusova and Kostornaia skate at the GPF exactly as they did at their GP event Trusova wouldn't win.

I used to be a fan of the men's...they had quads. It was fascinating to watch the likes of Stojko, Kulik, Yagudin, Pluschenko and many others (Timothy Goebel any one?), and then I lost interest because of the Splat fests. I still love a men's programme performed cleanly, even without the quads. They're no longer the great appeal (though they used to be...and a well landed quad loop can still make me salivate). As long as there are no falls, and there is beautiful skating I will enjoy it. I never did get the negativism about Lysacek not having a quad. He had a wonderful skate at the OG's. And even though I agreed that that there should probably have been a quad, I enjoyed it that beautiful skating won in the end. It wasn't as if Evan was dong doubles..

Favorite men's program for me is Han Yan's FS at GP China so lovely and exquisite.

 

[kwanatic]

Very impressed with Liza adding the 4T to her arsenal. It's a beautiful jump too. Looked easy, like a 3T instead of a 4T. To me, that's the mark of how well something is done--when it looks so easy it could have been something that easier but is actually much harder.

People are saying she breaks the whole "quads are only for pre-pubescent girls" mold and I agree, but only a little bit. Let's be clear on something: Liza has ALWAYS had fabulous jump technique. From the time she was a junior (and I watched her all the way back then) and through her career, she's always been one of the best technical jumpers. She jumps from her legs and pulls her rotation without excessive use of her upper body. It's strong technique. It's lasted from her junior days through puberty and into adulthood. IMO, it's why she's been able to add the difficult elements to her arsenal: her technique.

Yes, we just witnessed a 23 year old land a quad. However, it was a 23 year old with very strong technique.

It remains to be seen if the technique these younger girls have will grow with them and enable them to perform quads into adulthood. Again, this whole quad thing is just too new...there's no data to say whether it will or won't last. For now, it's nice to see that the quads and 3As (Liza really is an effing queen...) is not just a teenager's advantage.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Very impressed with Liza adding the 4T to her arsenal. It's a beautiful jump too. Looked easy, like a 3T instead of a 4T. To me, that's the mark of how well something is done--when it looks so easy it could have been something that easier but is actually much harder.

I agree with everything you said in your post. She has yet to land it in competition, so it will be interesting to see how successful it is in the long run. My hope is that she lands it regularly and shows the value of good technique for keeping those jumps past puberty.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

It's looking good. Having a 3A and a quad will really help her achieve huge scores in both segments. Hopefully she gets the 3Lz back in her programs soon.

Rika mentioned that she would have to stop training in order to heal her injury :/ so maybe we won't see the Lutz this season? (My hope is that she can skip 4CC, let her leg rest and come back for Worlds)