Women and the Quad

[rollerblade]

Except for the long steps in, unfortunately. If she could add a transition, it would be magnificent

I wonder if the reason for her long setup is for mental preparation rather than physical. A comfort zone, so to speak. It's not like she gained speed with those long glides (correct me if I'm wrong). Also with the way she jumps, she probably doesn't need supermassive speed to pull it off.

 

[Amei]

Except for the long steps in, unfortunately. If she could add a transition, it would be magnificent

This is Mishin skater so the likelihood of transitions happening....

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

This is Mishin skater so the likelihood of transitions happening....

She added a bit to her 3A. It didn't really help her GOE, though.

I'm curious if she does the 4T, will it replace a 3A or will she go for three risky elements?

 

[colormyworld240]

She added a bit to her 3A. It didn't really help her GOE, though.

I'm curious if she does the 4T, will it replace a 3A or will she go for three risky elements?

If she wants to compete she has to replace a 2A with the 4T, and if they're stable then include two of them. But again this is Mishin's skater so they'll probably replace a 3A, which means the 4T doesn't so much as she'll lose whatever she gains to her layout. With 3As and 4Ts, she should really have the highest BV by a lot (with the exception of Sasha). But for some reason they just aren't maximizing her layouts.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Except for the long steps in, unfortunately. If she could add a transition, it would be magnificent

Now see that's where I'm old school...I find it exciting when there's build up to a jump. You know something big is coming! Where as if you do fancy footwork the jump seems to get lost, at least to me

Obviously, my short attention span does me no favours.

 

[anonymoose_au]

If she wants to compete she has to replace a 2A with the 4T, and if they're stable then include two of them. But again this is Mishin's skater so they'll probably replace a 3A, which means the 4T doesn't so much as she'll lose whatever she gains to her layout. With 3As and 4Ts, she should really have the highest BV by a lot (with the exception of Sasha). But for some reason they just aren't maximizing her layouts.

We haven't seen a new layout, but I'm going to assume there's a reason Liza's layouts are the way they are and it's not because Mishin has been sitting around thinking: "I wonder how I can make the worst possible layout for Liza...oh, I know!"

Doing 2 3A's plus a quad in a program is no easy feat. I don't hear people demanding Sasha put a 3A in her FS or even her SP, and suggesting she or her coaching team foolish if she doesn't.

 

[lusterfan]

I'we haven't seen a new layout, but I'm going to assume there's a reason Liza's layouts are the way they are and it's not because Mishin has been sitting around thinking: "I wonder how I can make the worst possible layout for Liza...oh, I know!"

Doing 2 3A's plus a quad in a program is no easy feat. I don't hear people demanding Sasha put a 3A in her FS or even her SP, and suggesting she or her coaching team foolish if she doesn't.

I would like to believe that her team is maximizing her layout scoring, given what she's capable of. I do wonder though, if her layout really does that. If she really cannot do more than the 3Lz+SEQ+2A then that's that. We can wish and hope for more, but a skater has a limit.

However, to be competitive enough to make a Russian team, she will have to smart-up the layouts wherever possible. If she can replace a 2A with a 4T, the advantage is huge. Not including +SEQ in her layout will also help. However, it will be difficult to change everything suddenly mid-season. Maybe by next season she can come up with a maximized and competitive layout!

And I guess the excitement and push for Liza to cram everything (4T, 3A) into her program is because she's fighting from behind. Sasha doesn't need to add more to still win, whereas Liza honestly needs all that she can get to make the team.

 

[Elaine]

Since Liza doesn't have a -3Lo combo or a -Eu-3S (and doesn't seem to have intention to do a 3Lz/3F-3T combo in a LP), I think realistically this is the best layout.

4T
3A-2T
3A
3F
2A-3T
3Lz-2T-2Lo
3Lz

or 3T-3T / 3Lo instead of 2A-3T / 3Lz.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5U5-v4pCyl/?igshid=escprdvdfsdx

Elizaveta Tuktamysheva,4T

Omg...this is amazing Liza!

Not to diminish what the otherextraordinary quadsters are doing but this is truly astonishing - to be able to do this at 23 years old as a grown woman without the pre-puberty ultra slim physique the others have the benefit of. Wow, just wow. She is not going away and isn’t settling for 4th or 5th. Hope she can compete this, but regardless BIG props for this.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Except for the long steps in, unfortunately. If she could add a transition

Really?!?!

Can we just appreciate without tearing down the qualities to make it better? It’s a lovely quad regardless of the set up. And it’s a QUAD. Ironically if this was Jason Brown doing his first quad Salchow legit nobody would be like, “he needs a spread eagle or something before it because the set up is rather unfortunate”.

Like, if I said, “It’s a nice quad, but I really think she should add a tano or rippon arms to make it truly stand out” it would be ridiculous of me.

And it’s not like Sasha/Anna/Elizabet (or whoever else is landing them in practice) is doing walleys and twizzles going into their quads.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Now see that's where I'm old school...I find it exciting when there's build up to a jump. You know something big is coming! Where as if you do fancy footwork the jump seems to get lost, at least to me

Obviously, my short attention span does me no favours.

I definitely feel sometimes I miss jumps But this would take even more choreo away from her programs. But she should land it in competition first.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Really?!?!

Can we just appreciate without tearing down the qualities to make it better? It’s a lovely quad regardless of the set up. And it’s a QUAD. Ironically if this was Jason Brown doing his first quad Salchow legit nobody would be like, “he needs a spread eagle or something before it because the set up is rather unfortunate”.

Like, if I said, “It’s a nice quad, but I really think she should add a tano or rippon arms to make it truly stand out” it would be ridiculous of me.

And it’s not like Sasha/Anna/Elizabet (or whoever else is landing them in practice) is doing walleys and twizzles going into their quads.

I wasn't trying to tear it down. It's a lovely quad. A transition would make better. When I said "except the long steps in" I meant in comparison to the top men, because the top do transitions into their quads. Maybe it will be better in competition.

 

[jenaj]

Except for the long steps in, unfortunately. If she could add a transition, it would be magnificent

It’s just a practice. And I really don’t care about steps into a difficult jump. They are not the only thing that gains GOE. They are, in my view, another example of how transitions trump everything else in GOE and PCS in IJS judging.

 

[Happy Skates]

I'we haven't seen a new layout, but I'm going to assume there's a reason Liza's layouts are the way they are and it's not because Mishin has been sitting around thinking: "I wonder how I can make the worst possible layout for Liza...oh, I know!"

Doing 2 3A's plus a quad in a program is no easy feat. I don't hear people demanding Sasha put a 3A in her FS or even her SP, and suggesting she or her coaching team foolish if she doesn't.

I mean I think Liza's layouts are a combination of ability and Mishin not being the best strategist. Of course he isn't deliberately trying to make them bad, but the point is that it doesn't look like he's sitting there looking for the best layout to maximize her points. With an Eteri program, you can tell that the team has considered the best possible layout for points. And of course Liza shouldn't do a layout that she can't do, but I find it hard to imagine that they kind find a better solution than the lutz + 2A + SEQ. That literally loses you points on the base value, its just not smart. There's a reason why you don't usually see skaters doing that combo. I understand that Liza isn't the best at 3-3 combos, but even doing 3+2 combos are better than the SEQs. And people aren't demanding Sasha put a 3A in her FS because she has already maximized her lp base value so much... but people are definitely saying to put it in the short. Of course no one knows what the actual consistency rates of these jumps are, so we can't really say anything. But its fun to speculate layouts as if we knew they were consistent.

And no one said they would be foolish to not replace a 2A with a 4T, just that it wouldn't help her much. Which is true. If they can't help it, they can't help it, but its not going to make much of a BV difference.

 

[snowflake]

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5U5-v4pCyl/?igshid=escprdvdfsdx

Elizaveta Tuktamysheva,4T

yohoo!!! Women's skating getting more and more exciting

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I wasn't trying to tear it down. It's a lovely quad. A transition would make better. When I said "except the long steps in" I meant in comparison to the top men, because the top do transitions into their quads. Maybe it will be better in competition.

The vast majority of men do not do transitions into their quads. Yes transitions make the jump harder but it is a single GOE bullet. And it’s not worth doing transitions into a quad or any jump if it compromises the jump having a good landing and looking effortless.

Trusova has long preparation into her quad toe. But that’s fine... before she did a lazy spiral just for the sake of it and it wasn’t effective and it probably messed up the success rate. Not every jump element needs to have a transition before it especially the big ticket ones that need more speed and flow to execute properly. A skater is being foolish if they add difficult transitions that compromise the success rate, speed, and landing/overall quality of the jump.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I mean I think Liza's layouts are a combination of ability and Mishin not being the best strategist. Of course he isn't deliberately trying to make them bad, but the point is that it doesn't look like he's sitting there looking for the best layout to maximize her points. With an Eteri program, you can tell that the team has considered the best possible layout for points. And of course Liza shouldn't do a layout that she can't do, but I find it hard to imagine that they kind find a better solution than the lutz + 2A + SEQ. That literally loses you points on the base value, its just not smart. There's a reason why you don't usually see skaters doing that combo. I understand that Liza isn't the best at 3-3 combos, but even doing 3+2 combos are better than the SEQs. And people aren't demanding Sasha put a 3A in her FS because she has already maximized her lp base value so much... but people are definitely saying to put it in the short. Of course no one knows what the actual consistency rates of these jumps are, so we can't really say anything. But its fun to speculate layouts as if we knew they were consistent.

And no one said they would be foolish to not replace a 2A with a 4T, just that it wouldn't help her much. Which is true. If they can't help it, they can't help it, but its not going to make much of a BV difference.

Problem with Liza's possible layout is in combos she is not good at. It is hard to attach 3T to a 3Lz in her case, because she jumps single 3Lz with big height and less distance, and in a combo 3Lz should be jumped with less height and more distance to be easier to attach 3T to it. She is able to perform 3T-3T combo, but if she does that in a free, she can't jump any additional 3T because the Zayak rule. Eu combos are also hard for her because 3S is her worse jump. So, 2A SEQ is the best solution.

The vast majority of men do not do transitions into their quads. Yes transitions make the jump harder but it is a single GOE bullet. And it’s not worth doing transitions into a quad or any jump if it compromises the jump having a good landing and looking effortless.

Trusova has long preparation into her quad toe. But that’s fine... before she did a lazy spiral just for the sake of it and it wasn’t effective and it probably messed up the success rate. Not every jump element needs to have a transition before it especially the big ticket ones that need more speed and flow to execute properly. A skater is being foolish if they add difficult transitions that compromise the success rate, speed, and landing/overall quality of the jump.

Nobody is asking from skaters to have multiple transitions before the jump. I remember when Alina missed her 3Lz-3Lo combo and then she tried to attach 3Lo to her 3F and failed too, Eteri told her that she should have tried 3F-3Lo without the Charlotte spiral entry to it (because that entry makes it almost impossible to perform the combo after it). If skaters do an entry to a jump they will get one GOE point, and that's it. But the problem is when jump looks as it is totally disconnected from the programme, and skaters may get negative GOE points because of it (if nothing is happening beside the preparation for a jump/ there is no any pattern or body movement happening). Components score will also be lower than it can be without the preparation for the elements.

 

[jenaj]

Nobody is asking from skaters to have multiple transitions before the jump. I remember when Alina missed her 3Lz-3Lo combo and then she tried to attach 3Lo to her 3F and failed too, Eteri told her that she should have tried 3F-3Lo without the Charlotte spiral entry to it (because that entry makes it almost impossible to perform the combo after it). If skaters do an entry to a jump they will get one GOE point, and that's it. But the problem is when jump looks as it is totally disconnected from the programme, and skaters may get negative GOE points because of it (if nothing is happening beside the preparation for a jump/ there is no any pattern or body movement happening). Components score will also be lower than it can be without the preparation for the elements.

Doing a Charlotte spiral as an entry into a jump to gain points is the essence of a meaningless transition and everything that is wrong with IJS skating.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Doing a Charlotte spiral as an entry into a jump to gain points is the essence of a meaningless transition and everything that is wrong with IJS skating.

If you really think that Charlotte spiral is a meaningless move on the ice, we must be watching a different sport. Or you have a problem with it just when it is by being a well know element also an entry into another element or connection between the elements :dumb:

 

[gkelly]

I'd say that doing it badly and hurriedly only in hopes of getting a higher GOE on the jump would make it a meaningless transition.

Doing it well, in relation to the music and the overall patterning of the program, would make it meaningful . . . and would therefore be more likely to inspire judges to actually raise the GOE of the jump and also to reward it in several program components.