Women and the Quad

[Lunalovesskating]

Hm, it seems I was too strict for Liza's quad after all - my apologies I mean - I've just rewatched some other 4Ts from even men - and it seems I was wrong in assuming that this technique is something unusual for 4T. It appears majority of 4Ts are done with "toe axel" technique anyway - and noone cares about it Given that - it makes "cheated take off" rule even more useless than it appeared before
Example: Yuzuru Hanyu 4T https://youtu.be/nYvvwVkp3Es?t=445
Yes, he has pretty low amount of prerotation there - but why it should matter when he begins it in a moment where his picking foot is already turned to face forward? If the best of the best among men are jumping like that - it makes all usual blames against "cheated" ladies quads seems.. hypocritical, mildly speaking

The example you showed of Yuzuru's 4T is not a toe-axel and neither Liza's 4T is a toe-axel.
This is what ISU means with a toe-axel
https://twitter.com/chiburahakkai/status/1029637802990821379?s=20
That toeloop technique was very common in the 90s and early 2000s and is rarely seen today.

 

[ruga]

Apparently, mistaking prerotation for toe-axeling is quite a common mistake that fans make. Almost all skaters have 180° prerotation on toe loops, especially in combinations. I usually do not notice prerotation at full speed, but toe axels as shown above somehow look 'wrong' for me.

 

[Elucidus]

That’s just the technique for the toe-loop, I think. 180° rotation or less on the ice because of the mechanics of the jump. I’m not an expert, but I’m pretty sure ‘forward’ /toe-axel takeoff or similar is just common.

The problem is - it's not rotation on the ice. It's turning the leg in air before the jump even begins. It's not prerotation of any kind. Before I thought that's the main target of cheated take off rule - as there is clear difference between rotating on ice and making initial position for backward jump like it is forward jump - and the latter can be more easily noticed in real time. Now, given how everyone are jumping (and judged) - I am not that sure anymore :scratch3:

 

[LiamForeman]

I don't like her 4T take off tbh. It's similar to "toe axel" take off - instead of usual 180 degree prerotation from backward position she puts her picking foot on ice turned almost forward in the air - before any prerotation even begins. Strict TP could downgrade this jump by "cheating take off" rule if they notice it in real time. And it's noticable as the quad is unusually low in height and very similar to triple visually. Trusova and Valieva 4Ts are miles better since they begin the jump from backward position properly and/or having less prerotation - and their quads have more rotations in the air and more height - looking more like proper quads as a result. Tuktamysheva begin her picking phase when she has stolen at least 140 degree of a turn already - after that she prerotates for 120 degree additionally - and only then she lifts off the ice.
Maybe she will improve her take off with time - but I doubt it tbh. Given her relatively low height and rotation speed - it would be impossible to rotate the jump otherwise.

I disagree. Do you skate or have you ever skated? You understand that different jumps do require pre-rotation, right? You don't leave the ice perfectly backwards. When I first started skating I had a terrible toe-axel. I had just landed my 1axel, and then went around and did the 2toe-axel. It's a completely different jump from a 2toe in terms of picking, getting into rotational position, and just from a visual standpoint. I never really 'got' a real 2toe because of my dreadful toe-axel. It's a bad habit that's really hard to break. Anyway, Liza's 4toe is NOT a toe-axel by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Elucidus]

The example you showed of Yuzuru's 4T is not a toe-axel and neither Liza's 4T is a toe-axel.
This is what ISU means with a toe-axel
https://twitter.com/chiburahakkai/status/1029637802990821379?s=20

I don't see any difference between Yuzuru take off and Asada take off there, tbh. Except at what speed it's taking place. Sorry

 

[nussnacker]

I don't see any difference between Yuzuru take off and Asada take off there, tbh. Except at what speed it's taking place. Sorry

Toe axel is called that because Mao is virtually almost doing an axel, she did not go in the air “backwards“.
Yuzu has a perfectly normal 4T.
Axel, toe and Salchow are all related to one another, so that can be causing confusion to you.

 

[Elucidus]

Toe axel is called that because Mao is virtually almost doing an axel, she did not go in the air “backwards“.
Yuzu has a perfectly normal 4T.
Axel, toe and Salchow are all related to one another, so that can be causing confusion to you.

B-but Yuzuru didn't go in the air backwards either?

 

[nussnacker]

B-but Yuzuru didn't go in the air backwards either?

Hmm... how do I explain it.
Yuzuru, picks with his toe, and the jump already begins at that point, as he’s released in the air, his foot rotates and releases.
In toe axel example of Mao, she rotated on her foot first, and then starts the jump, she has already turned her torso by 180 and then she starts to vault into the air. Because of that delay, she has to rotate like 90 grad more additionally to 180, in order to make the jump.
Hope this makes sense.

 

[Nocturne]

Hmm... how do I explain it.
Yuzuru, picks with his toe, and the jump already begins at that point, as he’s released in the air, his foot rotates and releases.
In toe axel example of Mao, she rotated on her foot first, and then starts the jump, she has already turned her torso by 180 and then she starts to vault into the air. Because of that delay, she has to rotate like 90 grad more additionally to 180, in order to make the jump.
Hope this makes sense.

I know this is off topic, but I just want to point out that that is a video of Mao's sister Mai, not Mao herself

 

[waltzjump2]

That’s just the technique for the toe-loop, I think. 180° rotation or less on the ice because of the mechanics of the jump. I’m not an expert, but I’m pretty sure ‘forward’ /toe-axel takeoff or similar is just common.

I don’t think I explained this ^^ well enough but basically I think the toeloop never takes off completely forwards. Toe axel and pre-rotation are different. (And pre-rotation is basically necessary for toeloop.) As more ppl have said, it’s also about timing of the picking, etc. not just how much rotation on ice.

 

[StephenGfan]

Good on tuk for breaking the narrative that the quad race with ladies only between teenage girls! that was nicely landed!

 

[gkelly]

Toe axel is when the whole body turns forward while/before sticking the toepick in the ice.

Placing the toe in the ice while traveling backward and then beginning rotation before the pick is completely off the ice is completely normal and not a toe axel.

 

[skatenewbie]

I don't see any difference between Yuzuru take off and Asada take off there, tbh. Except at what speed it's taking place. Sorry

Mai Asada clearly didnt use her toe pick and step in forward, its almost like an SEQ where she step after her first jump and then jump forward (axel style)

 

[Elucidus]

Good on tuk for breaking the narrative that the quad race with ladies only between teenage girls! that was nicely landed!

Definitely. It's funny how usual mantra of ladies quads naysayers about how "it's possible only in child bodies" and "puberty will destroy them" suddenly became useless What they'll think up next, I wonder?

P.S.: with "naysayers" I implied not only many forum users - but fs officials (coaches, skaters etc) as well. Arutinyan, Orser, Fernandez.. list goes on - all of them will be presented in not very positive light now :yay: Of course, they will try to make it look like they never even said something of the sort :sarcasm: Still, it makes their previous criticism even more humiliating for them now - since it appears it's not impossible to make adult ladies to jump quads - it's just makes them look incompetent as coaches who tried to cover their unwillingness/inaptitude to prepare quads for their pupils with lame excuses
All in all - it appears jumping quads isn't that hard for ladies even with female adult curves and weight - as many thought before. Which always was pretty obvious if you think about it - ladies with adult bodies are jumping 3As for many years already - and there isn't principal difference between 3A and 4T for example. One can even say that 4T is even easier - number of rotations in air there are similar (4T have more prerotation than 3A) but toe pick entry is more convenient. It even makes one to wonder why they were so cowardly to avoid quads for ladies all this time until Eteri showed the way - if that was rather easy? :confused2: All these coaches missed so many potential medals all these years for their pupils - due to their own disbelief :taunt: I wonder many of them are like this now :hpull:

 

[Elucidus]

https://youtu.be/qdtrf8fcA9g?t=9
Here is another Liza's 4T with more closer camera angle :cool2:

 

[doublequad]

nothing like seeing the ig vid, getting excited, then going on gs and seeing gs non-skaters complaining about PR and toe-axels that really make them sound like TSL.

 

[silveruskate]

Sasha has the same technique as well. You can see it in the side-by-side with Yuzuru and it's just how you do a toeloop. The Mai Asada jump was a toe-axel because she picks in with the skate facing forwards. What matters is your body position at the first instant when the toepick touches the ice so even if it looks the same, freeze the frame on that moment and all the answers are there.

 

[katymay]

nothing like seeing the ig vid, getting excited, then going on gs and seeing gs non-skaters complaining about PR and toe-axels that really make them sound like TSL.

Liza's 4T is easy and beautiful. Period. She does it with the same ease as a 3T.

 

[nussnacker]

Liza's 4T is easy and beautiful. Period. She does it with the same ease as a 3T.

I dare to say, it looks easier than 4T of some very prominent men

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

I dare to say, it looks easier than 4T of some very prominent men

Except for the long steps in, unfortunately. If she could add a transition, it would be magnificent