Women and the Quad

[Mathman]

Lutz 33(17)
Toeloop 31(18)
Salchow 14(4)

So can we conclude that the 4Lz and 4T are the easiest, the 4S is harder, and the 4Lo and 4F are virtually impossible (at least so far)?

 

[skatenewbie]

Looks like Rika is planning the 4S for NHK! (and 3Lz back in the FS?)

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5FQnd8pXgF/?igshid=135l6q573af4i

But why the SP 3Lo?

I dont really believe planned content since its sometimes doesnt get updated and they just slapped old layout or the desired content even though they have yet try it or even land the jump... like Gracie when she went to CoR last year she had 3Lz+3T and other set of triples she barely can landed in the practice, also Kailani here have 3Lo+3Lo planned but she ditched that since late last season i think? If she then ry to jump 4S and lutz in run thru/practice i'll believe it

 

[lzxnl]

So can we conclude that the 4Lz and 4T are the easiest, the 4S is harder, and the 4Lo and 4F are virtually impossible (at least so far)?

Lo is harder to cheat the takeoff. T and Lz are quite easy to cheat. Presumably no one has felt the need to do a F yet; Sasha and Anna can also do a 4F.

In the men's field, at least if you look at Nathan and Yuzuru, both of them find 4T easy, 4S is ok, 4F is easy for Nathan, 4Lo is challenging for Yuzuru, 4Lz is hard for both. Makes you think why the women are doing 4Lzs.

 

[skatenewbie]

Lo is harder to cheat the takeoff. T and Lz are quite easy to cheat. Presumably no one has felt the need to do a F yet; Sasha and Anna can also do a 4F.

In the men's field, at least if you look at Nathan and Yuzuru, both of them find 4T easy, 4S is ok, 4F is easy for Nathan, 4Lo is challenging for Yuzuru, 4Lz is hard for both. Makes you think why the women are doing 4Lzs.

i think 4Lz is not that hard for Nathan and Boyang but yes Yuzu kind of struggle (ehem injuries...) I think 4S is trickier than we think, sure many men tried it and few women have attempt it both in competition and practices but many also struggles with it, i dont think many skater have more than 50/50 success on 4S unlike 4Lz/4T

 

[nussnacker]

So can we conclude that the 4Lz and 4T are the easiest, the 4S is harder, and the 4Lo and 4F are virtually impossible (at least so far)?

Depends on a skater. as usual.
Matteo Rizzo cannot learn 4S, he says he even struggles with solo 3S (not even a combo), yet he nailed 4Lo in a matter of weeks.

I think what this data shows, is that we have 2 skaters, who try and land quads frequently, and the data is just skewed because of their attempts, that's all.
Anna doesn't have other quads in competition yet, so she increases 4Lz ratio.
Alexandra does, however, she ditched 4Sal for a year, and now is having troubles with getting it consistent.
She also landed 4F in practice, but did not try it yet in competition, because 4 quads is already an insane content.
The rest just didn't try and land enough of quads.

 

[lzxnl]

i think 4Lz is not that hard for Nathan and Boyang but yes Yuzu kind of struggle (ehem injuries...) I think 4S is trickier than we think, sure many men tried it and few women have attempt it both in competition and practices but many also struggles with it, i dont think many skater have more than 50/50 success on 4S unlike 4Lz/4T

Boyang's success rate on the 4Lz is touch and go recently. He used to have it down really nicely.
Nathan hasn't skated a 4Lz in his free for the GPs, but was happy to do a 4S, so...?

 

[Imagine]

In the men's field, at least if you look at Nathan and Yuzuru, both of them find 4T easy, 4S is ok, 4F is easy for Nathan, 4Lo is challenging for Yuzuru, 4Lz is hard for both. Makes you think why the women are doing 4Lzs.

Maybe since the ladies doing quads will generally perform fewer quads than men do in their programs, it’s more worth it to just go for the quad that’s worth the most points (but is this even true about the Lutz? I don’t even know...)?

 

[ruga]

I think the reason why lutz, sal and toe seem to be the most popular quads is because once the skater masters sal and/or toe, he/she probably tries the most difficult one. The flutzers or those who do not like lutzes choose flip instead. And loop gets left behind not only due to difficulty but also to this learning process.

 

[Arbitrary]

4Lo never landed by a lady yet. Sasha said once she has no idea how to do it. She's struggling with 3Lo..

Some other girl (Kostornaya?) mentioned she'd like to enter the Quad Race with a flip or a loop. Apparently she tried both in harness.

Flip was landed in practice only twice (Sasha did it more than a year ago, Anna following in half a year).

Was it Hanyu who named the 4Lo the most difficult one, not talking about the Grand Quaxel?

 

[bubblecherry]

Boyang's success rate on the 4Lz is touch and go recently. He used to have it down really nicely.
Nathan hasn't skated a 4Lz in his free for the GPs, but was happy to do a 4S, so...?

4Lz seems to be pretty easy for Nathan when he's well trained. It was good at Nationals and Worlds last year when he got a bit of time to work with Raf prior. If I recall he wasn't doing 4S at all last year until WTT. It seems to be one that's always in his back pocket but not neccesarily his strongest quad.

 

[sheetz]

There are two types of difficulty: physical and technical. Nathan feels more comfortable doing the toe jumps but 4Lz is the most physically demanding quad for him. Technique-wise 3A and 4S are harder for him but he can backload them because they require less energy.

 

[lzxnl]

I dont really believe planned content since its sometimes doesnt get updated and they just slapped old layout or the desired content even though they have yet try it or even land the jump... like Gracie when she went to CoR last year she had 3Lz+3T and other set of triples she barely can landed in the practice, also Kailani here have 3Lo+3Lo planned but she ditched that since late last season i think? If she then ry to jump 4S and lutz in run thru/practice i'll believe it

http://twitter.com/beth_gifs/status/1197388159371423744
Does this mean anything to you? Sure, it's not perfect, but that's a pretty serious attempt at a 4S.

 

[SkatingFan9]

http://twitter.com/beth_gifs/status/1197388159371423744
Does this mean anything to you? Sure, it's not perfect, but that's a pretty serious attempt at a 4S.

That’s one tiny ‘quad’. It looks almost like a triple if we’re being honest.

 

[lzxnl]

That’s one tiny ‘quad’. It looks almost like a triple if we’re being honest.

It's small, yes, and I was surprised that it made it around, but it'll count as a 4S. In time, she'll stabilise it like she did with the 3A and make it larger. She's only just started jumping lutzes again.

 

[colormyworld240]

Rika's quad attempt does look tiny; is that the smallest 4S so far? Strange, because some of there other jumps, even the triples, look bigger.

On the other hand, I'm surprised by Maiia's quad. It's actually quite big, which is strange because I find her other jumps so small; I've never thought of her as a talented jumper. But I'm not a fan of any of her elements or her skating, and find her very boring, so it might just be bias.

 

[Arbitrary]

Quads frequently look tiny vs the same triple due to the more horizontal vector of momentum.
Better to rotate faster than having higher parabolic curve. Also, it makes the jump less costly, saving energy.

 

[theharleyquinn]

Rika also just isn't someone with big jumps even though her technique is strong, although her 3A is looking much, much bigger this season.

 

[readernick]

Quads frequently look tiny vs the same triple due to the more horizontal vector of momentum.
Better to rotate faster than having higher parabolic curve. Also, it makes the jump less costly, saving energy.

And, this is true some of Rika's other jumps (her 3A, 3Lz, and 3F have nice height and distance) but her 3S is not a particularly high jump. It is a distance covering jump. The 4S looks like it covers quite a bit of distance, too. Additionally, it looked a bit higher over the summer but she didn't practice it for a month or two prior to bringing it back so she is probably just trying for focus on the rotation and landing. She will increase its height later, as she did with her 3A.

 

[moriel]

Rika`s quad issue is not size, but the UR there, specially considering the pre-rotation too.
That is the sort of thing that the judges may pass, but bad technique (Hamada, sigh) and likely harder to land due to the underrotation.

 

[Mathman]

Better to rotate faster than having higher parabolic curve.

I think this is the key to the "quad revolution" in ladies' skating. Someone -- Eteri Tutberidze I suppose -- figured out a teachable technique for rotating faster. (And the rest is history.)

As for under-rotations, Rika Kihira is one skater who just doesn't have this problem in general. It looks to me like she is on the verge of mastering this jump.