Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

[ParadiceSport]

I would welcome this change. This change would give a chance to female category. We would be able to see more "women" skating.

 

[flanker]

I would welcome this change. This change would give a chance to female category. We would be able to see more "women" skating.

What "women skating" precisely we weren't able to see now?

 

[ParadiceSport]

By women skating I mean skaters such as Ashley Wagner, Carolina Kostner, Miki Ando. More adult as age wise. Currently in Women skating we see Little girls (mainly from Russia) dominating.

 

[Shayuki]

I would welcome this change. This change would give a chance to female category. We would be able to see more "women" skating.

More? I assume you mean fewer. After all, after a change such as that many more skaters would never be skating in seniors and would give up on the sport altogether. It almost exclusively affects Russian ladies and they'd need to endure 4 years of competition in juniors before any potential for a payoff(junior events essentially give out no rewards).

By women skating I mean skaters such as Ashley Wagner, Carolina Kostner, Miki Ando. More adult as age wise. Currently in Women skating we see Little girls (mainly from Russia) dominating.

Are Ashley Wagner, Carolina Kostner and Miki Ando prevented from skating in seniors due to these age limits? Which 15-16 yo American girls replaced Ashley Wagner? How about the 15-16 yo Italian girls overtaking Carolina Kostner?

 

[ParadiceSport]

At least by rising the age slightly, there is a chance for other countries to be on top. Right now there is full dominance By Russian. It is more like Russian championships with others.

 

[Shayuki]

At least by rising the age slightly, there is a chance for other countries to be on top. Right now there is full dominance By Russian. It is more like Russian championships with others.

Yeah, that's the true reason isn't it? Russian girls are too good, so let's hinder them. As I've been saying, that's the primary motivation for wanting this change.

 

[flanker]

By women skating I mean skaters such as Ashley Wagner, Carolina Kostner, Miki Ando. More adult as age wise. Currently in Women skating we see Little girls (mainly from Russia) dominating.

I understand what kind of skaters you thought about. The thing is not that "We would be able to see more 'women' skating",rather "We would be able to see more 'women' winning." The fact that Russians send Kostornaia/Shcherbakova/Trusova to competitions shouldn't prevent US of A or Japan from sending their own adult amazing age-wise mature artistic and whatever skaters. If you don't see such at worlds than the problem lies more in the fact that there are not such or that they couldn't qualify for big competitions (if you don't consider Bradie, Mariah or Satoko fulfilling those criteria).

 

[Scott512]

Didn't we just go through this b******* two years ago after Alina won the Olympics at 15 and Zhenya la won Worlds at 16? Would they be pushing to raise the age rules it's a 15 year old American Girl won the Olympics and another American Girl won a World title at 16? Me thinks nyet!

And now you have so many eteri girls looking to dominate and actually having dominated the last couple years that all this is happening two years after we went through this because there's more Russian dominatio in ladies figure skating. Raising the age limit to 17 or 18 would Main eteri and Russia wins last which is the end goal here.

Does anyone remember the Tara Lipinski won senior world's at 14 and then the Olympics at 15 and Michelle Kwan was great at 15 and 16? I'm trying to remember the outcry for raising the age limit back in the late 90 when 14 and 15 year old American girls were dominating winning big events. But these decisions are being made in large part by the powers in the international skating again and those people are all in their 50s 60s and 70s. So for the reasons I laid out above the age limit will be raised after the next winter Olympics in 2022. This is like total government control like we're facing around the world due to the pandemic creating opportunities to control people. International skating Union should be serving figure skating fans worldwide but they don't and they never have. Taking the most spectacular ladies figure skater ever Sasha or the next Sasha a few years from now off the ice until she say 18 or aliona the most beautiful skater I've ever seen in ladies figure skating off the ice until she's 18 is absolutely ridiculous. Enjoy these girls while you can because it's likely we won't see fantastic 14 15 and 16 year old skaters in the future in ladies figure skating. I'm trying to find information on the outrage when Tara won Worlds at 14 in the Olympics at 15. Maybe someone can help me with that. When Lipinski and Kwan were great at 14 15 and 16 years old I'm sure Christine Brennan wrote many articles on why the age limit should be raised. Um maybe not.

Also there's too much competition in Russia among the ladies and even the novice girls the strongest survive and the weaker ones even though they're really good get pushed out of the way. I say that sports and that's life.

 

[flanker]

Yeah, that's the true reason isn't it? Russian girls are too good, so let's hinder them. As I've been saying, that's the primary motivation for wanting this change.

I guess if there was no Eteri's team at all or other strong russian teen girls, but there was Alysa Liu, the forums would be full of hopes "I want Alysa in seniors ASAP."

 

[YuBluByMe]

At least by rising the age slightly, there is a chance for other countries to be on top. Right now there is full dominance By Russian. It is more like Russian championships with others.

Full dominance by Russians?? Have you seen the Russian men lately? They’re not dominating diddly.

As for the Russian ladies (because that’s who you meant, no?), so what! I’m sick of the idiotic rule changes. When Usain Bolt was dominating track and field, was he made to run with a 20-pound pack on his back to give the slower runners a chance to win? When Mike Tyson was knocking out dudes in 20 seconds, was he made to fight with one hand tied behind his back? If ISU wants to prioritize so-called “mature artistry” over technical prowess, then they need to act like it. Give out the points. Overhaul the PCS system. But this isn’t what they are doing. Instead, they’re trying to handicap the best technical skaters while not realizing that those skaters are still going to get the gold medals. Why? Because “leveling the field” by lowering the value of a 4Lz doesn’t mean that the technical skater suddenly can’t land it and that the 24-year old artist can.

 

[jenaj]

Didn't we just go through this b******* two years ago after Alina won the Olympics at 15 and Zhenya la won Worlds at 16? Would they be pushing to raise the age rules it's a 15 year old American Girl won the Olympics and another American Girl won a World title at 16? Me thinks nyet!

The current age rule of 15 by July 1 was introduced in 1996, when the US had two young champions. Michelle Kwan won Worlds at 15 in 1996 and Tara Lipinski, because she was grandfathered in, won it at age 14 in 1997 and won the Olympics at age 15.

 

[flanker]

The current age rule of 15 by July 1 was introduced in 1996, when the US had two young champions. Michelle Kwan won Worlds at 15 in 1996 and Tara Lipinski, because she was grandfathered in, won it at age 14 in 1997 and won the Olympics at age 15.

There was a talk about it already. Those who could be affected like Tara were protected by the "Grandfather clause" and at that time nothing looked as if the US dominance in ladies should be threatened in the future. However. the line of the US teen winners was disrupted only later by adult Maria Butyrskaya. The history has a sense for paradoxes

 

[Tolstoj]

Yeah, that's the true reason isn't it? Russian girls are too good, so let's hinder them. As I've been saying, that's the primary motivation for wanting this change.

I don't think rules are made to prevent countries winning ever (especially in the case of Russia, considering how big is the presence of the country inside ISU) but more to send messages that this is not the way we want athletes to be raised or it's not great for the future of the sport.

If we merely talk about skating, in my opinion components nowadays are so reputational/momentum based in ladies that we barely look if X skater actually has great skating skills or great interpretation to deserve an 8 or an 9, despite current rules say loud and clear you should look at that.

The reason why Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner, Yuna Kim became such great skaters artistically is because the rules were different, more strict perhaps, so you needed to be really good to earn high components, and it took time to earn those skills, and while it wasn't perfect back then either, i find the thought process more logical than now on the way components were given.

Nowadays skaters range from 7s to 9s-10s in 5-6 months with the exact same program, just showing the momentum. Yes it can get better over time, but it is still the same program after all.

 

[flanker]

I don't think rules are made to prevent countries winning but more to send messages that this is not the way we want athletes to be raised or it's not great for the future of the sport.

And the "we" is?

If we merely talk about skating, i think components nowadays are so reputational/momentum based in ladies that we barely look if X skater actually has great skating skills or great interpretation to deserve an 8 or an 9, despite current rules say loud and clear you should look at that.

The reason why Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner, Yuna Kim became such great skaters artistically is because the rules were different, more strict perhaps, so you needed to be really good to earn high components, and it took time to earn those skills, and while it wasn't perfect back then either, i find the thought process more logical than now.

Nowadays skaters range from 7s to 9s-10s in 5-6 months with the exact same program, just showing the momentum. Yes it can get better over time, but it is still the same program after all.

So generally those are the choreographers who should receive the medals

This is weak, to be honest. Orchestra is always playing the same Beethoven's 5th symphony and still the differences in quality of performance can be very significant easily.

 

[Tolstoj]

So generally those are the choreographers who should receive the medals

Well those are the contents you show, programs change mid-season but usually they add little details (unless you change it entirely), often accordingly to judges feedbacks, but is it an extra twizzle in the steps, the one that gives you the 9s in skating skills? when you were a 7 type of skater in the Grand Prix just 4-5 months before?

I already said that performance can get better over time, but again better to degree of from zero to hero in a flash? Debatable, especially when we talk about girls who just came out from juniors.

I provided in other threads examples of (in my opinion) overmarked programs all of a sudden due to momentum/consistency, not because of any groundbreaking improvement in artistry.

 

[flanker]

Well those are the contents you show, programs change mid-season but usually they add little details (unless you change it entirely), often accordingly to judges feedbacks, is it an extra twizzle in the steps, the one that gives you the 10s in skating skills? when you were a 7 type of skater in the Grand Prix?

Yes, that's how it works with everyone all the time (not only in particular cases you are so obsessed with that you can't leave them even two years later).

 

[Scott512]

The current age rule of 15 by July 1 was introduced in 1996, when the US had two young champions. Michelle Kwan won Worlds at 15 in 1996 and Tara Lipinski, because she was grandfathered in, won it at age 14 in 1997 and won the Olympics at age 15.

Thank you for that information. I'm glad Tara got grandfathered in and I hope the same is gifted to some eteri girls in the future. But I won't hold my breath.

 

[Tolstoj]

Yes, that's how it works with everyone all the time (not only in particular cases you are so obsessed with that you can't leave them even two years later).

It's not that i'm obsessed, these are the current champions, so it's always worth questioning: Is this actually the best Ladies figure skating can offer artistically given the components they got?

Shcherbakova's PCS are already higher than Rika Kihira, despite imo she skates worse.

For 15-16 years old they skate well, but if you talk in general past and present figure skating, we have seen more mature and developed skaters artistically in the past like Yuna, like Mao,... and a lot comes from the maturity they developed over time.

 

[Mathman]

I think that the current age limits are about right. I do not advocate any changes (and frankly, I do not think that the ISU does, either.) Fifteen and sixteen year old skaters have always led the way in this sport. That's just how it is.

But I have to admit that I am disappointed in the so-called "arguments" put forward by advocates of the youngsters. Instead of debating the issue, all I read is, "You don't care about young or old, you just hate Russia (or Eteri Tutberidzee), boo hoo." I wish there were some actual content posted about the question instead of wallowing in imagined national victimhood and martyrdom.

 

[flanker]

I think that the current age limits are about right. I do not advocate any changes (and frankly, I do not think that the ISU does, either.) Fifteen and sixteen year old skaters have always led the way in this sport. That's just how it is.

But I have to admit that I am disappointed in the so-called "arguments" put forward by advocates of the youngsters. Instead of debating the issue, all I read is, "You don't care about young or old, you just hate Russia (or Eteri Tutberidzee), boo hoo." I wish there were some actual content posted about the question instead of wallowing in imagined national victimhood and martyrdom.

I would say that this time it was provoked by this comment. Otherwise this wouldn't be mentioned today.

But when it is brought here, it should be mentioned that 99 % of time people bring the question of the raising of the age eligibility anywhere, they always connect the question of "russian girls". Not just here, once again I remind that you cannot behave as if GS was existing in the vacuum. Just a small example, I was literally dying during the broadcasting of Europeans by the Czech TV, where the moderators were bringing the question of the rising of the age eligibility back and back everytime when a girl with the russian roots (not just 3A, but also Ryabova, Safonova, Urushadze, Ioffe...) was on the ice (while ommitting it when other girl even of the same age skated - like Mazzara for instance).

And that's not the isolated case. Miss Kiira always connects this case with russian girls and exclusively with Eteri. The same did the Guardian aticle posted here recently. Maybe Eteri is a symbol of this era, but if you judge the thing that must have the impact on the whole sport (and definitely not just on ladies), you should do it impartially. which, IMO, is not happening, the suspision of bias is not raised only be the age question.