2022 Olympics: Men's Short Program

[Florian]

Actually, I'm not sure it is. Yuma has absolutely amazing SS. I would question the Performance, Composition, and Interpretation scores more...

I don't know, I think giving out a 10 is unrealistic and exaggerated. It is kindergarten to me. I expect that from teenage fanboys, but not from mature judges who should know there is no perfection. I would never give it to anyone. But giving it to an 18-year-old in a short program where he himself states that there is still a lot to improve... no. And yes, the other components are of course not less ridiculous. It seems when the judges see a (more or less) surprisingly good program, the only question left for them is whether to give a 9,0; 9,25; 9,50 or 9,75 and when they belong to Russia or today also Japan, they just add a bit more because those skaters must be quality material already because of their nationality. That's insane and random. If it was realistic, some component would be 6,75, another 7,50 and another maybe 8,25. They just don't distinguish. And maybe it is not possible within the short time span. Another bad thing is the one-sidedly (positive) inflated GOE's. If I touch the ground, I can't get away with 0 or with -0,something. There must be congruency between positive and negative GOE's, otherwise they make no sense. Sometimes I think the judges are paid according to the points they give. The more points, the more they get.

 

[Silvia451]

After some impressive performances, young talents get a jump in PCS. It's partly because they indeed get better and partly because, well, they are the rising stars, that's how things go. Yuma was quite consistent recently and I am not surprised by his score.

Regarding the "juniorish" program, I would say it is a proper program for someone at 18. I wouldn't like to see him skate Shoma's program which requires such maturity that Shoma has, but Yuma not yet.

I feel sorry for Yuzuru, but I hope he'll skate without pressure now (dreaming of a Mao moment...). I think he gets a lot of unnecessary hate because of his fandom.

Looking forward to see many clean free skates tonight and maybe also a clean 4A.

 

[moonvine]

Imagine if they set it up so you could ask the audience like on Who Wants To Be Millionaire although, in that case Donovan could win depending on the make-up of the crowd

I could deal with a Chen Messing Carrillo podium.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Once again, integrity of the composition, not program. Do you think that the ISU does not choose the wording in the rules very carefully?
Composition is specifically defined by the ISU, it is not some sort of undefined entity. You cannot simply substitute it by performance (another part of PCS) or program, as they do not mean the same thing within the strict confines of the ISU. You can say that in your opinion he should receive lower PCS because his interpretation/performance/... was not as good as usual - that's fine, that is your opinion. What you cannot say is that his PCS should have been capped, because while you categorically consider pops as serious errors, the only thing the ISU will always consider a serious error is a fall. In every other case, it is up to the judges to decide if the technical error impacted the composition - To me, it didn't (and I say that as a person that is actually not that interested in Yuzuru Hanyu as a skater, but I'm interested in rules and to me, the case is not as clear cut as some of you are making it seem) and 3 judges agree. (The remaining 6 scored him below the maximum scores either way, if it was because they felt his error impacted his composition or because they didn't think he was as good as normally or for whichever other reason is not for us to know) - Just as a little reminder, the maximum PCS score a skater usually scoring 10s with a fall would be 48.25 (higher than the score Yuzuru received). We haven't seen this program internationally, so we cannot compare this score to what he would receive for it clean, but in the past, clean SPs from Yuzuru have scored between 9.50 and 10.00, the average landing closer to the 9.75 mark than to the 9.50 mark. With this in mind, the maximum with a major error would be 47.00, 0.08 below the score he received (explained by three judges not deeming his mistake as disruptive to the composition)



Also, as per your own definition of serious errors, wasn't for example Keegan Messing even more overscored in PCS than Yuzuru Hanyu? (Not a dig against Keegan, he did the best he could and definitely didn't score himself) As you brought up the stumbles, he did have 2 visible stumbles in the StSq (by the way, I feel quite sorry for Keegan, seems like the World is out to get him this year, from losing his luggage multiple times, his dog dying, him catching Covid and almost missing the Olympics to making small mistakes in spins and step sequences, probably due to jet lag or lack of practice time - but he seems to be very happy to be here despite that, lovely to see a skater enjoy themselves like Keegan does) which should be serious errors by your definition - and he still received the highest PCS he has received internationally since Skate America in 2019. (Average SP PCS per category when clean: ca. 8.75 (here he received a slightly higher average of 8.788), with one serious error his maximum should be around 42, with 2+ around 39).
And still, I don't see you going around criticising his scores. And I understand that it's impossible to look through every single skater's scores (and I certainly wouldn't want to), but if you want to apply the rules so strictly and broadly and even bring up stumbles in Step Sequences yourself, then it seems absurd to pick out one skater, who "only" popped one jump and scored pretty close to what he should have received at the maximum with a serious error, while overlooking PCS scores that would be much harder to explain by how you understand the rules.
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Falls are not the only thing the ISU considers a serious error.

"Serious errors are falls, interruptions during the program and technical mistakes that impact the integrity/continuity/fluidity of the composition and/or its relation to the music."

And "the composition" is clearly synonymous with "the program" in this case. And a pop impacts the integrity of it. It seems as though you think it's saying "composition" as in the choreography as intended -- but even jumps are part of choreography and the composition of a program. And doing a popped quad is compromising that - or at least not performing it to its ideal.

Jumping_Bean, do you personally think it's appropriate/fair/correct if a program with every jump popped (but everything else done as is) was still awarded 10.00s in every component?

Also, it's not like the rest of the program was skated as well as it could have either... even his own fans have admitted that he seemed to skate slower and performed this short program better at Japanese Nationals.


And re: Keegan's scores. I think he WAS overscored in the SP on PCS given the errors and on the StSq (would have been a -1 or -2 on my scorecard... the +2/3s are absolutely ridiculous for that element), and B) while Keegan was overscored, he should be marked down on PCS for the stumble but they do not equate to two serious errors the way 2 pops or 2 falls would). To compare a popped quad to Keegan's minor stumbles in the footwork are just not the same thing at all, and you know that. It is the Olympics, so PCS is bound to be better, but Keegan also performed that SP very well outside of the step sequence. Some people might even say Keegan's StSq errors are part of the StSq which is TES so that shouldn't adversely affect his PCS .... but I consider everything in the program when I assess PCS from jumps to spins to sequences, so even errors on those can affect the overall components. And yeah, similar to Hanyu's 9.75 I thoroughly disagree with Keegan getting 9 (even a ridiculous 9.50) for PE and above 9s for IN. Given no rational person would consider his blips in footwork as "2 serious errors", and he interpreted well, about 9.00 for IN is fine, but on my scorecard, he was 8.50/8.75/8.50/8.75/8.50. For comparison, Hanyu was a 9.25/9.25/9.00/9.25/9.00 for me.

 

[moonvine]

He already has! Team Bronze!

I somehow missed him skating in the TE? How did that happen? I’m truly losing my mind.

 

[moonvine]

Recall the time when a leading pair's music didn't play and they skated the entire program without music. Did they have to skate their program again?
Recall Harding getting a restart after she claimed her boot strap broke?
And another time when some sequins on the ice caused a problem for a skater. Can't remember, but was that skater allowed to start over?

Just in US Nationals this past January Yaros strap broke - and I don’t know about Tonya but his definitely broke, there was an audible gasp from the audience. If a gymnast has an equipment failure they get to fix their equipment and start again with no penalty as it is a safety . It is my belief this should be true of skating as well.

 

[Artistry]

Are there any videos besides NBC of Chen's short? Or other channels in general covering the skaters? I'd like to hear how Canadians, British, Russians called it etc

 

[moonvine]

Former gymnastics judge here, attended all Olympic Trials since 2000 etc and you are correct big time. Bela was all about the glory. He sacrificed kids and their bodies right and left and Marta was even worse. And yes, we had already won the gold but he pushed her to do the vault and he wasn't even suppose to be on the floor. Did you know he practiced jumping over the barrier that's suppose to keep people off the floor?

No, I did not know that. And they both got away scot free back to Romania

 

[moonvine]

Oops! I did not know that - I thought the whole TEAM got medals. How embarrassing ...

I know. It stinks.

 

[msteach3]

Read an article today that these were the least watched Olympics in a very long time (in America).

It's no wonder. This coverage is just awful.

Part of the problem in the NBC coverage of the men's SP was that the men's downhill had been delayed due to weather and rescheduled to the same time as the men's skating. If it hadn't been for that, I think they would have covered more of the men's short program. I had NBC on my TV and Peacock going on my laptop, so didn't miss anything. I really enjoyed the fluff piece on Nathan and would have been disappointed if they didn't air something like this.

As for these Olympics being the least watched, I think it has to do with China, the lack of an audience, and Covid (along with the Hazmat suits) taking out some of the athletes. It just overall has a bad vibe.

 

[yume]

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two big differences in my book :
Patrick skated last in the final flight and the ice was clearly melted by then. It was a large problem.
Yuzuru : i believe he got unlucky but the ice was fine enough for him to nail the rest of his program and for the other skaters to do so as well.

Boston : the entire event was over. No matter what is said, results are punched in.
Beijing : this happening after the SP distracts from the other skaters.

There should be more posts about Nathan, Yuma, Shoma, Jason, and others and less about a popped jump.

You're free to write about these other skaters. But you did choose to write about this popped jump on i don't know how much pages.
Don't let Yuzu and his "excuse" distract you.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

False. Falls are not the only thing the ISU considers a serious error.

"Serious errors are falls, interruptions during the program and technical mistakes that impact the integrity/continuity/fluidity of the composition and/or its relation to the music."

And "the composition" is clearly synonymous with "the program" in this case.

I said "the only thing the ISU will always consider a serious error" - as in, with every other technical fault there will have to be a subjective decision made by the judges on whether or not they find the mistake to impact the integrity/continuity/fluidity of the composition and/or its relation to the music.

And is it that clear? Why would they then not use "the program" but deliberately use a word with a pre-defined meaning within their own rules? Even outside of skating "composition" is not a word used often as a synonym for "program", the times I have heard it used in a similar context (for example in dance), it was always used as a synonym for "choreography".

At this point, I don't really even care anymore because we are only going in circles - And the only thing I'm hoping for is that the ISU will be more clear in their wording in the future or provide specific examples to illustrate how certain rules are meant to be understood and used (like the FIG does in quarter-/half-yearly newsletters).

 

[4everchan]

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You're free to write about these other skaters. But you did choose to write about this popped jump on i don't know how much pages.
Don't let Yuzu and his "excuse" distract you.

i have written about the other skaters tons

 

[coldblueeyes]

I think Performance should definitely be more affected by a pop, plain and simple. It’s one of seven elements that you have to perform in the SP and he didn‘t. One of the judges even gave him a 9.75. Mind you, I didn’t watch the program, so I can only say what I saw in the scoresheets. But he had the weight of his career behind, so can’t go against that.

 

[4everchan]

9.75 is way too much. Just my opinion.

 

[moonvine]

that's not true, flowers and other stuff are not allowed due to covid19 control. A simple google you can find the truth, why started rumor like that?

There were stuffies presented to all skaters who won medals in the team comp. It is not a rumor. I watched it. Many pictures and videos exist also.

 

[4everchan]

Also : I agree with @readernick here about Yuma. His skating skills are stellar. If he will acquire more maturity in connecting with the audience and music, his attention to detail and care + the precision of his skating is among the best in the world. There is nothing juniorish about that. Many seasoned seniors will never get those smooth edges and that precise blade. I do not find the judges' love exaggerated here.. Not at all.

 

[Florian]

I think Performance should definitely be more affected by a pop, plain and simple. It’s one of seven elements that you have to perform in the SP and he didn‘t. One of the judges even gave him a 9.75. Mind you, I didn’t watch the program, so I can only say what I saw in the scoresheets. But he had the weight of his career behind, so can’t go against that.

I agree. Thus it should lead to a reduce of 1/7 of points at least in this component.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Actually, I'm not sure it is. Yuma has absolutely amazing SS. I would question the Performance, Composition, and Interpretation scores more...

I don't question it anymore after i saw this performance. I mean, i may not prefer this music for him, or the flailing arms, or youthfulness or bla bla bla... but what he did was perfectly right. So (as a judge) you need to reward it, you like it or not

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I think Performance should definitely be more affected by a pop, plain and simple. It’s one of seven elements that you have to perform in the SP and he didn‘t. One of the judges even gave him a 9.75. Mind you, I didn’t watch the program, so I can only say what I saw in the scoresheets. But he had the weight of his career behind, so can’t go against that.

I think it's very hard to judge the scoring if you haven't seen the program.

Also, like I said, it is completely up to you to say that the performance was worse than usual - but scoring someone lower is not the same as a PCS cap. Skaters' PCS scores often have some natural fluctuation, and even without serious errors you will sometimes encounter lower scores than usual (if a skater is for example solely focusing on technical elements after they had a few rough skates, you might see lower scores than expected from a clean skate of that particular skater)

But to be honest, could you explain to me why you believe that a pop in itself (if a skater manages to perform to the same level as usual, hypothetically speaking - completely separate from Yuzuru, just in general) should impact the performance score? (Performance is defined as "Involvement of the Skater/Pair/Couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they deliver the intent of the music and composition.")