2022 Olympics: Men's Short Program

[*~RussianBleux~*]

Also : I agree with @readernick here about Yuma. His skating skills are stellar. If he will acquire more maturity in connecting with the audience and music, his attention to detail and care + the precision of his skating is among the best in the world. There is nothing juniorish about that. Many seasoned seniors will never get those smooth edges and that precise blade. I do not find the judges' love exaggerated here.. Not at all.

I thought about taking out the word juniorish because it always triggers people.

The lack of maturity in connection to the audience/music is what is juniorish to me. His StSq to me felt more like he was performing his choreography incredibly well rather than emoting or displaying actual musicality. I would have rewarded in GOE but not so much in PCS in relation to Brown/Hanyu/Chen/Uno.

I agree about attention to detail, absolutely. He was accenting everything but it lacked that mature emotional connection and just utter brilliance of the others performance wise.

 

[4everchan]

I thought about taking out the word juniorish because it always triggers people.

The lack of maturity in connection to the audience/music is what is juniorish to me. His StSq to me felt more like he was performing his choreography incredibly well rather than emoting or displaying actual musicality. I would have rewarded in GOE but not so much in PCS in relation to Brown/Hanyu/Chen/Uno.

I agree about attention to detail, absolutely. He was accenting everything but it lacked that mature emotional connection and just utter brilliance of the others performance wise.

you know, i am a new yuma fan since the team event... i am just seeing more and more to his skating... and the more i look, the more i appreciate it... do i prefer others? Yes... but yuma is special too and his jumps are probably the best out there... so clean. So I cannot help but cheer on him though my heart has belonged to others for much longer haha... this is what i like about the Olympics : discovering new skaters to cheer for !

 

[WeakAnkles]

Kerry Strug probably performed that Vault properly 10 times a day getting ready for the Olympics.
I'd be happy if you're right and the magic of pure adrenalin has us seeing the first ever 4A tomorrow,
but I think these moments are created through hard work and practice, and he can't get near it in practice.

Oh for the most part I totally agree with you, and it wasn't the best example I could think of, but I was very tired when I wrote. I just really meant to say that there ARE moments in high level competitions, both athletic and otherwise, where there is this burst of inspiration and one performs at a level never reached before. Doesn't happen often, but when it does it's magic.

And I for one would love Hanyu to have a bit of that magic with the 4A here.

 

[coldblueeyes]

I think it's very hard to judge the scoring if you haven't seen the program.

Also, like I said, it is completely up to you to say that the performance was worse than usual - but scoring someone lower is not the same as a PCS cap. Skaters' PCS scores often have some natural fluctuation, and even without serious errors you will sometimes encounter lower scores than usual (if a skater is for example solely focusing on technical elements after they had a few rough skates, you might see lower scores than expected from a clean skate for that particular skater)

But to be honest, could you explain to me why you believe that a pop in itself (if a skater manages to perform to the same level as usual, hypothetically speaking - completely separate from Yuzuru, just in general) should impact the performance score? (Performance is defined as "Involvement of the Skater/Pair/Couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they deliver the intent of the music and composition.")

The jumps are part of the composition. Delivering seven technical elements is part of the physical involvement of the skater with the composition. I don‘t think performance should be based only in the emotional or intellectual part, especially if were going by semantics, the physical part came first, and should be valued as such.

There’s composition and interpretation for the intellectual and emotional part to shine more. Performance should be about the balance between them all. And a missing element does not a balanced program make.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I thought about taking out the word juniorish because it always triggers people.

The lack of maturity in connection to the audience/music is what is juniorish to me. His StSq to me felt more like he was performing his choreography incredibly well rather than emoting or displaying actual musicality. I would have rewarded in GOE but not so much in PCS in relation to Brown/Hanyu/Chen/Uno.

I agree about attention to detail, absolutely. He was accenting everything but it lacked that mature emotional connection and just utter brilliance of the others performance wise.

Ok, but nobody asking from the skaters to express the music as some true mature artists. The point is to express the music the way it is close to you, as young people, as Guinean people or as aliens. All are allowed to express the music the way they want. Timing/rhythm is the most important task for the IN of the music. There is no obligation for the 'maturity of being an artists' nor in figure skating nor in any other competition for that matter (even in some music competitions, as Eurovision is)...

 

[WeakAnkles]

I thought about taking out the word juniorish because it always triggers people.

The lack of maturity in connection to the audience/music is what is juniorish to me. His StSq to me felt more like he was performing his choreography incredibly well rather than emoting or displaying actual musicality. I would have rewarded in GOE but not so much in PCS in relation to Brown/Hanyu/Chen/Uno.

I agree about attention to detail, absolutely. He was accenting everything but it lacked that mature emotional connection and just utter brilliance of the others performance wise.

Oh I think this is spot on. But there are two reasons I so thoroughly enjoyed that program AND performance. First, it was age appropriate, which isn't the same as "juniorish." And it wasn't an Angst Fest screaming to the judges, Hey! Look at how MATURE and IMPORTANT I am. Olympic season programs can so often be like an Ingmar Bergman film fest, so I appreciated how light and joyful it was. Even if it was a "coached" performance. I honestly think he will develop that performer's ability to convey emotion and connect with the audience. Few have that as an innate ability, but I can think of quite a few skaters/teams who developed it over the course of their skating careers.

 

[ICeleste]

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

Donovan Carrillo's Olympic short program has surpassed 1 million views already. The video is geoblocked outside Latin America, so it is a million viewers just within LATAM. It seems to be the most watched figure skating performance at these Olympics so far.

 

[el henry]

For those of you who are new to Yuma... (I've been watching since juniors )

He has improved tremendously in the expression/performance department. I almost fell off my chair when I saw him mug at the judges. Younger Yuma was incredibly talented with the blade, and rotations, but was a "Gitt 'er done" kind of skater and would never have done that. And at IdF, when his short was falling apart, he lost all connection to the audience and the judges. Experience will hopefully teach him how to keep that going even with a tough skate.

However, is he as good as he was scored in PCS, as much as I love watching him? No. But that's the scoring system, and the way it's applied, and banging my head against a brick wall hurts. So someday I'll stop

 

[ICeleste]

He already has! Team Bronze!

He does not have it. Only Yuma, Shoma, Kaori, Wakaba, the Japanese pair and dance team won that medal.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

you know, i am a new yuma fan since the team event... i am just seeing more and more to his skating... and the more i look, the more i appreciate it... do i prefer others? Yes... but yuma is special too and his jumps are probably the best out there... so clean. So I cannot help but cheer on him though my heart has belonged to others for much longer haha... this is what i like about the Olympics : discovering new skaters to cheer for !

Oh believe me I completely understand and agree. You explained that so well. I seriously think this kid is going to be amazing in another year and we will have a new era in the men’s skating. The attention to detail really is very special and something not every skater is able to manage. I think the judges are already anticipating this hence the scoring, which happens. He is far from from the least deserving skater to ever receive slightly inflated PCS.

I also prefer the Iron Mask program to this one and hope it will be as jaw dropping fantastic tomorrow as I know it can be.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

The jumps are part of the composition. Delivering seven technical elements is part of the physical involvement of the skater with the composition. I don‘t think performance should be based only in the emotional or intellectual part, especially if were going by semantics, the physical part came first, and should be valued as such.

There’s composition and interpretation for the intellectual and emotional part to shine more. Performance should be about the balance between them all. And a missing element does not a balanced program make.

That's certainly one way to interpret "physical involvement" - I was thinking more of the way some skaters use their whole body to deliver the composition, things like carriage, movement of the upper body and arms, control of movement, ...

Once again, it would be very helpful if the ISU actually gave examples and more detailed explanations. They've already improved on that, but some things are still very vague and open to interpretation (Based on their rules, for Single skaters performance involves "Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement", "Projection", "Carriage & Clarity of movement", "Variety and contrast of movements and energy" and "Individuality/Personality" - I'd say at least 2 of these are unclear in meaning.)

 

[el henry]

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

Donovan Carrillo's Olympic short program has surpassed 1 million views already. The video is geoblocked outside Latin America, so it is a million viewers just within LATAM. It seems to be the most watched figure skating performance at these Olympics so far.

Not only that, his IG follows have increased from 120K last week to 200K .

Another "old home week" skater for me. I have been following Donovan since 2017, when I believe he was under 20,000 followers. Really under.

I don't want to hear word one, from anyone, about how having skaters from small feds at the Olys doesn't really increase skating exposure, doesn't matter, blah de blah. Donovan Carrillo, training under conditions that would horrify any skater in the US, Russia, Canada, or Japan, has expanded the reach of figure skating all by himself. By skating well at the Olympics.

Bravo, orgullo mexicano

 

[moonvine]

Hanyu did a major error, which affects the overall impact of a program. It diminishes interpretation (a single salchow on the music is a different vibe than a 4S on the music). It also shows a lack of skating skills when the timing/technique is off.

People need to stop saying a "pop" isn't a serious error. It is. People need to stop diminishing their severity the way they say "a fall wasn't disruptive". It's a big, glaring, obvious error, especially on the first jumping pass/first impression/setting the tone of the program.

The program was excellent, don't get me wrong, but you can't give 9.75s to a performance with a pop (especially an SP where there are just 3 jumping passes) no matter who/how good the skater is.

Re: Hanyu/Jason vs. Chen.... a program with low-difficulty quads or no quads is inherently easier to execute. Easier difficulty impresses less than harder difficulty -- if a woman did 3S+3T, 3L, 2A and did the same program 3Z+3L, 3F, 2A, the latter deserves more credit on the performance because the skater literally performed a harder program. It's worth reiterating Chen did the same layout as Brown except with an extra rotation on his flip and lutz. After Hanyu got 47 I joked that Jason should get 49 then because Hanyu with a pop should get outscored on PCS by Jason going clean, as the overall impact of the clean skate is better (I'd put Jason higher on CO/IN and Hanyu higher on TR/SS). Hanyu's PCS should have been about 45-46.

Brown's PCS was correctly 47-48, but he attempted no quads -- with Hanyu's jump layout Brown should get low-mid 49 in my books, with Chen's jump layout mid-49 to 50. And for reference, Hanyu at his best in the SP is about 48-48.5 for me (48.5-49 if he had Chen's layout). Chen at his best in the SP is around 47-47.5 (and of course that would be higher if he/his programs matched Jason/Yuzu's artistic ability).

A pop is a major error. I agree there. But Jason does much harder transitions into his jumps than skaters who are jumping quads.

 

[moonvine]

I streamed the event for some friends who have never watched FS before, and their thoughts were... interesting. They loved Yuma (many wanted to place him first), liked Matteo/Kevin/Junhwan/Yuzu/Shoma/Donovan, and felt very lukewarm towards Nathan and Jason. Many wanted to score Matteo and Jun a little higher in particular, and were in disbelief that Jason placed as high as he did. I guess something something sometimes intricate choreography doesn't immediately connect as well with less trained eyes? They could also just have been influenced by my bias, considering their fav list has a lot of overlap with mine

What? No opinion on Keegan?

 

[ICeleste]

Not only that, his IG follows have increased from 120K last week to 200K .

Another "old home week" skater for me. I have been following Donovan since 2017, when I believe he was under 20,000 followers. Really under.

I don't want to hear word one, from anyone, about how having skaters from small feds at the Olys doesn't really increase skating exposure, doesn't matter, blah de blah. Donovan Carrillo, training under conditions that would horrify any skater in the US, Russia, Canada, or Japan, has expanded the reach of figure skating all by himself. By skating well at the Olympics.

Bravo, orgullo mexicano

Donovan's name was trending #1 in his country yesterday on twitter

 

[coldblueeyes]

That's certainly one way to interpret "physical involvement" - I was thinking more of the way some skaters use their whole body to deliver the composition, things like carriage, movement of the upper body and arms, control of movement, ...

Once again, it would be very helpful if the ISU actually gave examples and more detailed explanations. They've already improved on that, but some things are still very vague and open to interpretation (Based on their rules, for Single skaters performance involves "Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement", "Projection", "Carriage & Clarity of movement", "Variety and contrast of movements and energy" and "Individuality/Personality" - I'd say at least 2 of these are unclear in meaning.)

In my interpretation, and we’ll definitely veer off track here, Performance is the combination of all the other four aspects of the PCS, and it’s relation to the technical side of the program, because if we go by usage of the body, for example, that’s covered in choreography. Skaters are not performing movement simply out of nowhere in a program, it‘s already choreographed beforehand, so assuming that they will be mostly executing movements they already practiced, it’s kind of a moot point to reward choreography another time. The same for interpretation. Which is why Performance, if it’s not, it should be more about the complete delivery of what it’s in the composition of the program, technically and choreographically, to the whole extent of the athlete’s possibility and expressing the utmost dedication to what they proposed to do.

In that sense, to me, even with complete abandon and soulful interpretation, a program with a deficit technically because of an execution mistake, should not be rewarded a high score. At least not in this part of the PCS. But I agree, there are still too many big words and not enough practical explanation to some of them in the scoring system.

 

[ice coverage]

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

Donovan Carrillo's Olympic short program has surpassed 1 million views already. The video is geoblocked outside Latin America, so it is a million viewers just within LATAM. It seems to be the most watched figure skating performance at these Olympics so far.

I am a longtime fan of Donovan -- and I am thrilled for him that he skated a great SP and that he is receiving a mind-boggling response on the order of one million views (and counting).

I would say that his SP is one of the most-watched figure skating performance of these Olympics -- which is awesome!

But without taking anything from Donovan, it apparently is not the #1 most-watched overall. Views on NBC's YouTube channel (accessible only in the U.S., I think?):

Nathan individual SP: ~ 1.3 million​

Valieva team SP: 1.2 million​

Valieva team FS: 1.7 million​

Good luck to Donovan in the FS. And to all.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

In my interpretation, and we’ll definitely veer off track here, Performance is the combination of all the other four aspects of the PCS, and it’s relation to the technical side of the program, because if we go by usage of the body, for example, that’s covered in choreography. Skaters are not performing movement simply out of nowhere in a program, it‘s already choreographed beforehand, so assuming that they will be mostly executing movements they already practiced, it’s kind of a moot point to reward choreography another time. The same for interpretation. Which is why Performance, if it’s not, it should be more about the complete delivery of what it’s in the composition of the program, technically and choreographically, to the whole extent of the athlete’s possibility and expressing the utmost dedication to what they proposed to do.

In that sense, to me, even with complete abandon and soulful interpretation, a program with a deficit technically because of an execution mistake, should not be rewarded a high score. At least not in this part of the PCS. But I agree, there are still too many big words and not enough practical explanation to some of them in the scoring system.

To be honest, the biggest problem is that multiple PCS categories aren't clearly divided. Many would perhaps assume that "Individuality/Personality" is part of interpretation, but it isn't, it falls under performance. Many criteria they mention for each PCS category seem closely linked to those in other PCS categories as well ("Phrase and form (movements & parts of the program to match the musical phrasing)" and "Movement and steps in time to the music (Timing)" for example).
And the ISU also neglects to elaborate on how big the connection of PCS and TES is. Falls are really the only thing everyone should be able to agree on because there is no other way to interpret the rule on how falls impact PCS - everything else seems so purposefully vague, almost as if it is wanted. (After all, biased judging (in both directions) is much easier if nobody can be 100% sure of how the ISU means for their rules to be interpreted.)

(Also, wtf is "intellectual involvement" meant to be exactly? Acting quickly on your feet after mistakes (like converting a bad landing into a transition)? Not zayaking yourself?)

 

[Baron Vladimir]

In my interpretation, and we’ll definitely veer off track here, Performance is the combination of all the other four aspects of the PCS, and it’s relation to the technical side of the program, because if we go by usage of the body, for example, that’s covered in choreography. Skaters are not performing movement simply out of nowhere in a program, it‘s already choreographed beforehand, so assuming that they will be mostly executing movements they already practiced, it’s kind of a moot point to reward choreography another time. The same for interpretation. Which is why Performance, if it’s not, it should be more about the complete delivery of what it’s in the composition of the program, technically and choreographically, to the whole extent of the athlete’s possibility and expressing the utmost dedication to what they proposed to do.

In that sense, to me, even with complete abandon and soulful interpretation, a program with a deficit technically because of an execution mistake, should not be rewarded a high score. At least not in this part of the PCS. But I agree, there are still too many big words and not enough practical explanation to some of them in the scoring system.

Yes, IN is connected with the music, timing with the music and the rhythm of it. PE is general involvement of yours in the programme, how generally you are projecting to the public, how generally high you jump, how generally fast you spin etc. In that way, regarding Yuzu's pop, if a pop is an elegant looking like a falling leaf, that will not devalue your PE score. But the problem is, skaters usually become 'nervous' and not on their best after they made that kind of a mistake, and some judges will see a difference in a skaters performance overall (which is for example that after the 'mistake' he made, he wasn't that fast on the ice, skating pattern was messed up a little bit, his axel wasn't the best etc That usually low your PE score not as an exact result of the pop, but as the result of your reaction to the pop in the rest of your performance... Yuzu was keeping it fine to the end of the programme, not the best he can, but very fine in my opinion).

 

[chuckm]

There were stuffies presented to all skaters who won medals in the team comp. It is not a rumor. I watched it. Many pictures and videos exist also.

The stuffies really weren't stuffed animals---they were made of metal or porcelain. You could see the lights reflecting off the surface.