2013 Skate America Ladies Free Program

[CarneAsada]

I've seen how good loop jumps are done, try harder.

Show me a good 3-3loop combo, then.

 

[minze]

Show me a good 3-3loop combo, then.

 

[Mathman]

Let's see, shall we? I know that many Japanese tune into figure skating because they want to cheer her on as she tries.

Still. wouldn't it be cool if she did something like 3A, 3F+2Lo, 3Lo, 2A+3T, 3S, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 2A, all with complete rotations and secure flowing exit edges, with all level four spins and step sequences, and a row of solid 9's across the board? That would be an Olympic gold medal performance, showing mastery of the complete figure skating vocabulary (minus the Lutz). But no, the CoP gives more points to a hot mess.

If Mao weren't one of the finest skaters in the history of the sport, it wouldn't matter. But she is. It breaks my heart that the scoring system does not allow her to skate up to her talent.

On the other point, I do not agree that figure skating is by its nature a boring sport. It is as thrilling as sports that are much more popular. But only when the programs are well skated.

 

[Moment]

Show me a good 3-3loop combo, then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKFDeU1c9K4

Good enough to be ratified.

 

[CarneAsada]

Still. wouldn't it be cool if she did something like 3A, 3F+2Lo, 3Lo, 2A+3T, 3S, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 2A, all with complete rotations and secure flowing exit edges, with all level four spins and step sequences, and a row of solid 9's across the board? That would be an Olympic gold medal performance, showing mastery of the complete figure skating vocabulary (minus the Lutz). But no, the CoP gives more points to a hot mess.

If Mao weren't one of the finest skaters in the history of the sport, it wouldn't matter. But she is. It breaks my heart that the scoring system does not allow her to skate up to her talent.

I'd be OK with the Flutz if it was at least a consistent flutz. But no, she tried instead to fix it and the edge is scarcely better but she lost all semblance of consistency on it. Might as well have left it unfixed and proudly flutzed with reckless abandon. Anyway, if she's not including the 3F-3Lo, she might as well do a final 3Lo. Otherwise, I'd agree. Better to go for 2 or 3 of the less secure point scorers than to attempt all 4 and accomplish 0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKFDeU1c9K4

Good enough to be ratified.

She's facing forward when she leaves the ice on her Loop... Isn't that your definition of "cheating pre-rotation," or is only Asada not allowed to do that?

http://youtu.be/ZmyUwtmch9w?t=4m24s

So does that mean Asada was able to do 3F-3Lo, or do you plan to retroactively invalidate the efforts of Miki Ando, Irina Slutskaya, and Tara Lipinski?

 

[Sara]

There are some interviews of Russian skaters and coaches on the Russian skating fed website. Tuktamysheva has met with a psychologist concerning her problems with her SP programmes. Mishin praised his student saying Liza was the strongest of all skaters, even stronger than Asada. Sorry, didn't understand much else what was written there... http://fsrussia.ru/

 

[hurrah]

Still. wouldn't it be cool if she did something like 3A, 3F+2Lo, 3Lo, 2A+3T, 3S, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 2A, all with complete rotations and secure flowing exit edges, with all level four spins and step sequences, and a row of solid 9's across the board?

I would prefer to see a skater attempt a 3A, 3F+3Lo, 3Lz, 2A+3T, 3S, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 3Lo, and do all with complete rotations and secure flowing exit edges, etc., etc.

Between the former done perfectly and latter done imperfectly, I cannot say which one I would prefer as it would really depend on how 'imperfect' the latter was done.

In my view, a program with one fall, particularly if it is on a very difficult element, is okay. If a skater falls twice and wins, then it can be rather questionable. If a skater falls three times and wins, that is not acceptable, for me, that is.

I think the idea to penalize the second and third fall more than the first fall was floated several times, and I think that is a reasonable solution.

 

[hurrah]

Mishin praised his student saying Liza was the strongest of all skaters, even stronger than Asada.

What does Mishin know about Mao's strengths? Great that he's sticking up for his pupil, but why does he feel the need to put down Mao, eh? He's as bad as some of the posters at Goldenskate.

 

[Tonichelle]

On the other point, I do not agree that figure skating is by its nature a boring sport. It is as thrilling as sports that are much more popular. But only when the programs are well skated.

The term splatfest came WELL before the CoP - as long as I've been on message boards (1999) that has been in skating fandom vocabulary. So it really doesn't seem like this is some new phenomena. Michael Weiss won his last US National Title as being the last man who could barely stand. That was the same competition that Weir went up in a jump and landed with his legs going separate ways and his face stopped him from traveling down the ice. Weiss was two footing quads in that era to the point where people were griping that two footing anything was just as bad as a fall and they wished that the judges would hit him harder for it. And they did, after the CoP was introduced.

Is the CoP failproof? Hardly. But neither was the 6.0 system. Rose colored glasses are nice, but not realistic.


Football in the US has a lot of... bad judgement calls as well. The players - some anyway - are pretty unsavory off the field (as well as on). The Patriots Jets game is under some sort of controversy because of a penalty given to the Pats during overtime (conspiracy theorists are out in full force) -but Football is super marketable in the US - even in states that don't HAVE an NFL team.

So there has to be more than bad calls/judging/falls that are keeping people from watching. 1994-2000 was six years of glory for the sport in the media. It wasn't because of AMAZING skating that it got there - it was because of a whack and a scream and a bunch of drama that had NOTHING to do with skating. Even Kwan in all her glory couldn't keep people tuning in. ABC/ESPN was already getting ready to dump it by 2002, but then the drama of SLC happened and they thought "we might get some of that 1994 action back"... it didn't and when the contract was up in 2006 they let it go. (It also didn't help that Doug Wilson retired).

NBC does NOT want to educate the viewership of what they're seeing. They want to cheerlead team USA (they do this with a lot of Olympic sports, it's not JUST figure skating). Problem is Team USA is not the best there is. So they act all surprised and confused when they don't win. They'd do the same if it was 6.0.

 

[enzet]

Ok, so if Mao skates visibly clean performances with extremely difficult content (3A + 2 different 3x3s, or 2 3As), which she did several times btw (see bellow),
all people seem to care about are underrotations, hardly noticeable errors and levels.
Just check for yourself what kind of performances (with falls) scored higher or the same like e.g. her practically clean skates at 2010 Worlds or 2007 GPF. Somehow I don't remember people predicting doom to figure skating then.
Quite the opposite actually. The obviously ignorant fans who wanted to see cleanish and ultimately challenging performances like that rewarded more, were advised to learn how COP works and stop counting falls as there are so many other elements that can score as much as a triple jump, that it's the quality not quantity that counts etc.

When Mao watered down her technical content while reworking her jumps, focusing on all the other important elements and dealing with serious personal problems at the same time, people were screaming that she is being lazy, playing it safe and not pushing the sport.
How dare she not attempt the 3A in every single SP after the villainous Japanese Federation bribed everyone to allow her do a solo 3A in the SP?
She should at least try to go for the big tricks, right?

And when she starts including difficult jumps again and, oh the horror, happens to make mistakes while attempting a layout no lady had ever done before, she deserves to be crucified again. Why does she even try to go for something that she cannot execute 100% (ok 90% then) of the time, huh?

Could someone also enlighten me, why it matters so much that she supposedly went for 8 triples but eventually only attempted 6 at the actual competition?
Did she get any points for the triples she didn't complete or what?
She did 3F-2L and 2A-2T and that's what I see being scored looking at her protocol.

Anyways, congrats to Mao for making history once again by being the first lady ever to win all 6 GP events,
as well as for being an inspiration and a role model for not only the new generation of skaters but also some of her direct competitors.

Congrats to Ashley too, who was amazing in both programs and to Elena who seems to have everything at the moment to become a future skating superstar.

-----------
BTW, here are some of the visibly practically clean performances by Mao with super challenging content that some of you seem to be crying for now, and that too were being nitpicked to death at the time they were performed.

Worlds 2007 (3A out of brackets, 2A-3T, 3F-3L) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5G3Ns2i86U
Grand Prix Final 2007 (3A, 3F-3T, 3F-3L) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYJ_mG6Qvno
4CC 2008 (3A 3F-3T, 3F-3L) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp5aoeVYcHg
NHK Trophy 2008 (3A-2T, 3A) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwgyJz-le1w
Worlds 2010 (3A-2T, 3A) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCZCM8AKCU
4CC 2011 (3A, 2A-3T) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpZGFBDYc2w

 

[wonderlen3000]

Everyone was over scored. Mao, Ashley, Rodinova, the russian pair.... this is Olympic season. Everyone PCS jumps by several points. If Mao got over 9.+ in PCS with flawed program, can we debate the same thing that happens to other skaters like Chan, Takahashi?? I thinking the judges are setting up for another massive inflation in points like last Olympic.

 

[Rami]

Everyone was over scored. Mao, Ashley, Rodinova, the russian pair.... this is Olympic season. Everyone PCS jumps by several points. If Mao got over 9.+ in PCS with flawed program, can we debate the same thing that happens to other skaters like Chan, Takahashi?? I thinking the judges are setting up for another massive inflation in points like last Olympic.

The marks were suprisingly high but they were high for everyone. IMO the actual standings were correct.

I thought Mao's program was very strong. Yes, some jump issues but other than that the choreography was good. Perhaps her best ever free skate choreo.

Ashley's music is wonderful but the choreography is not there yet. She really has to get rid of those overdone facial expressions. She always has that same expression when she skates to sad or dramatic music. IMO skater's facial expression should be very, very subtle. It is the body that should reflect the music as much as possible. All that said this program has a potential to be great.

 

[3T3T]

I only got to watch the top flight last night so I didn't see all the skaters but if i had to pick I would say that my favourite performance was Radinova. She really seemed to be enjoying herself even if her jumps were not perfect. I was disappointed with Asada, I love the music but I thought it was mainly about the jumps there was very little in the way of choreography, I liked the final step sequence. I didn't think wshe was going to win with that level of performance, 131 was a very generous score. I didn't enjoy Wagner, the music choice was poor and again it was mainly about the jumps.

I really hope Liza gets over her SP problems as things stand it could be very difficult for her to make the russian team.

 

[figurejennah]

Everyone was over scored. Mao, Ashley, Rodinova, the russian pair.... this is Olympic season. Everyone PCS jumps by several points. If Mao got over 9.+ in PCS with flawed program, can we debate the same thing that happens to other skaters like Chan, Takahashi?? I thinking the judges are setting up for another massive inflation in points like last Olympic.

Everyone is over scored, and I wonder how much more over scored it can get. Maybe we will see 80+ soon!!!
Although I think Mao could have done better (because we ALL know what she's capable of doing), I think she will grow as time progresses....
Yes, she does two foot landing, and yes she under rotates... and yes she doesn't have that 100% triple axel success rate, but.... well she's still a very talented lovely skater. LOL.
It's like... she's imperfect but still we accept her imperfection.....? sigh.

She's not perfect, but well... she's also a rare talent. I just wish Mao could shine for who she is, not just because she does triple axel. That's all.
Ashley I thought was lovely as well. She's slow and she does lack some skills yet, but I still love Ashley. So koodos to her.

BTW, if anyone is interested in buying Skate Canada tickets, I am selling them for really cheap.... I paid $181+ per ticket, but I am selling two for $140. These are close to center seats and are Row 2. Too bad I can't go anymore.... If anyone is interested in buying them, please let me know. I wish I could go.... really wanted to see Patrick Chan live in competitions. Saw him at a show, and he fell... lol. But then he came right back up with his radiant smile!!!!!!!! lol gotta love chan.

 

[gottadance]

sorry if I might have missed somthing earlier in this thread , but , to me Samantha Cesario was the star of the night especially on PCS! She seemed so into her program and her jumps were very solid and nice and high and the program held my attention compared to the blah top 5. Maybe posters didnt mention her much because if they watched NBC only, they didnt even see Samantha? Just curious as to what everybody else thought of her LP and does she have another Grand Prix assignent?

 

[Kitt]

Samantha has TEB and I am going there! Looking forward to seeing her, I think she is so elegant.

 

[FSGMT]

sorry if I might have missed somthing earlier in this thread , but , to me Samantha Cesario was the star of the night especially on PCS! She seemed so into her program and her jumps were very solid and nice and high and the program held my attention compared to the blah top 5. Maybe posters didnt mention her much because if they watched NBC only, they didnt even see Samantha? Just curious as to what everybody else thought of her LP and does she have another Grand Prix assignent?

I completely agree, she was my favourite yesterday night... Her FS was so and mature, I absolutely loved everything about it: the jumps, the choreography, the interpretation, the spins, the steps, a lot more than Liza/Elena for me for example... She just needs a bit of reputation I think, and then her scores could go really high! I hope she'll be among the 2018 contenders!!

 

[hikki]

My overall impressions of the Ladies at Skate America:

Thank you so much for posting this (Page 28). So detailed. Are you involved in skating in some capacity or just a die-hard fan?

 

[Mrs. P]

This is the aspect of CoP-think that I object to:

Back in the day, coaches told their students that they needed to achieve a 90% success rate in practice before they were allowed to include an element in their programs. If you can’t land your double Salchow nine out of ten times, then you don’t “have” that skill yet. You owe it to the audience to skate the best program you are capable of, and this means stay on your feet. If you want to push the envelope, great, push away. I’ll tell you when you are competition ready.

Now, the strategy is not “can I really do this trick” but “how many points do I get?”

In the men’s LP every competitor except Brown tried a quad. Two were successful – Machida’s first and Gachinski’s. (Aaron’s second 4S was OK.) This is at most three successes out of ten for the field as a whole. I’m sorry, but these guys do not “have” a quad.

So why do they do it? Majorov got 6.30 points (after fall deduction) for falling on a quad. Takahashi got 8.30 points for a terrible quad. Rippon got 6.60 points for falling on an under-rotated quad Lutz. Aaron got 14.80 for his first two failed quads, including a fall. Machida Zayaked on his second quad (no combination) but still got 8.10 points.

Knowledgeable people posting on figure skating message boards cheer – look at all those quad attempts, men’s figure skating is “progressong.” The television audience (the who?) switches channels.

Kori Ade's strategy is that Jason doesn't bring out the elements until he's pretty much mastered them. That was the case with the 3A and that is going to be the case with the quad. I get the sense is that they value having clean, well-trained programs.

And Jason can bring the house down with clean amazing programs even without having the big jump. See Exhibit A: Greensboro 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G94pHGvq3Fs Not a 3A in sight. But he hit everything else and by the time he did that 3F-2T-2T combo, everyone was cheering and ready to be on their feet.

One thing I like about their strategy is they don't twiddle on their thumbs waiting for a certain jump to happen. They try to find ways to get extra +GOE or focus on hitting all the levels in the non-jump elements. I really liked that whole two-hands behind the back thing he did on the 2T at the end of his 3F-2T combo.

Of course that also means that if he makes mistakes on his current programs he won't score very well in the meanwhile. That was the case at JGP Courchevel last year when he didn't have the 3A and ended up lots of URs and it was the case on Saturday when he succumbed to nerves and missed both his 3A attempts and didn't have the quad.

 

[SkateSkates]

Thank you so much for posting this (Page 28). So detailed. Are you involved in skating in some capacity or just a die-hard fan?

Yes I am a former competitor but still involved in the sport in other ways. Thank you for reading my rambling post!