Nathan Chen and University: A Yalie?

Got this news from poster gokcenx @FSU/The Trash Can/Nathan Chen thread,

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2018...than-chen-touts-yale-acceptance-on-instagram/

flipsydoodle said:

Ummm, no. You need to rack up AP credits (and a whole lot of other stuff) just to get in. AP credits are not used to reduce course load at elite institutions like Yale: you are expected to do elite level work at elite institutions. AP's don't even come close: you'd be through an AP curriculum in about 2 weeks at an elite institution, and many don't even offer curriculum that's basic like that. You can sometimes use APs to let you skip, say, the first year of French, but that won't mitigate your obligation to do well in a required number of semesters in foreign language. Same with all the other subjects. Often, you can't even use your APs to make a 100-level course easier on you: e.g. you may have Chemistry AP and be forced into Organic (rather than General) if you want to continue in Chemistry.

Unlike most colleges/universities, elite universities require you to do well in an array of specified disciplines. There are likely to be 8 or so of these classes that are not in your major.

To give you a clue about the elite world if you aren't familiar first hand, I have an Ivy Ph.D. 5 languages were required for admission to my program; language testing verification began on the FIRST day, for a whole day. These grad students were coming from very elite institutions from around the world, and they tended to be multi-talented. Like all my peers, I had a crazy-rigorous undergraduate curriculum: APs in lieu of rigorous elite classes would just plain have sunk you in this environment.

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I went to a top 10 private college and got AP English course credit, so you might be right about Yale, but you are not right in general. AP credits/test scores are also not considered for admissions, in general. And they are called credits for a reason--because they can be accepted as college credit. You also don't need APs to skip out of foreign language. I placed out of the language requirement based on the SAT achievement test and most schools offer their own placement tests.

flipsydoodle said:

AP's don't even come close: you'd be through an AP curriculum in about 2 weeks at an elite institution, and many don't even offer curriculum that's basic like that.

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Really? I find that sort of hard to believe. Take AP Calc BC, which is taught over a full year in high schools. Condensing it down to one term makes sense. But can it really be taught in 2 weeks (4 classes), even at a top school like Yale? If so, what would that course be teaching by the end of the term, linear algebra and differential equations?

I guess Yale must be far more of an “elite institution” than Stanford, because I do not recall the material from Calc BC being covered in only 2 weeks lol

jenaj said:

I went to a top 10 private college and got AP English course credit, so you might be right about Yale, but you are not right in general. AP credits/test scores are also not considered for admissions, in general. And they are called credits for a reason--because they can be accepted as college credit. You also don't need APs to skip out of foreign language. I placed out of the language requirement based on the SAT achievement test and most schools offer their own placement tests.

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Not at the Ivies. Everyone here who has gone to Yale, or lives with someone who does , has explained that you do NOT get “course credit” for an AP course. You may place out of a requirement, but you still need to take 36 classes and you need to take them, with limited exceptions, *at* Yale.

And to bring this back to skating, I did mention in the Nathan Fan Fest that spousal unit was at Yale when a bomb went off at the Whale (no skating, a concert or protest was being held on May Day?) Those were the days....

This is probably the best time for him to do this. Since this is a non Olympic year, it’s good for him to take chances with less risks. He’s already won everything besides an OGM. Maybe the craziness of this situation will teach him to be a better competitor and deal with stress and fatigue.

I won’t lie, I really hoped he’s go to Stanford since they have a lot of experience with Olympic Figure Skaters and can help Nathan adjust better. But Nathan is a extremely smart young man, who loves a challenge. If anyone can handle this, it’s him

If not, he’d said he’d give it a year and if things weren’t working out he’d make some adjustments. I hope that means transferring to a college that is more flexible and can best meet his needs.

jenaj said:

... . AP credits/test scores ... are called credits for a reason--because they can be accepted as college credit. ...

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:agree: My experience (at a different Ivy that is universally recognized to be every bit as "elite" as Yale [or even more "elite" ]) is that I received course credit for AP results.

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el henry said:

Not at the Ivies. Everyone here who has gone to Yale, or lives with someone who does , has explained that you do NOT get “course credit” for an AP course. You may place out of a requirement, but you still need to take 36 classes and you need to take them, with limited exceptions, *at* Yale.

And to bring this back to skating, I did mention in the Nathan Fan Fest that spousal unit was at Yale when a bomb went off at the Whale (no skating, a concert or protest was being held on May Day?) Those were the days....

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The post above says that an Ivy gave him/her course credit. I also know someone who went to Dartmouth (albeit several years ago) who graduated in three years because he had enough AP credit.

jenaj said:

The post above says that an Ivy gave him/her course credit. I also know someone who went to Dartmouth (albeit several years ago) who graduated in three years because he had enough AP credit.

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That may very well be; we all have our own experiences, so I should not generalize to all Ivies.

I have seen no posts here from anyone who actually attended Yale, or from someone with a close family member (such as spousal unit who actually attended Yale, who says anything other than Yale) does *not* accept AP courses as course credit.

That said, this is a discussion that has certainly run its course, and I apologize for contributing to it. I'm not a believer in "the last poster wins", so I will now bow out.

And wish Nathan the best with his academic career, whatever he chooses and wherever he goes.:yay:

ETA; and completely irrelevant to this post, interesting to see that Phil Hersh, contemporary of spousal unit, uses "Eli". SU however would prefer not to think how close his own 50th his

jenaj said:

Your source for that? AP credit is usually just that--course credit. Every school has its own policies, but in general, AP credit can be used to graduate earlier or to take a reduced course load.

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I don't have a source, it's just personal experience? It's not something the university will publicize bc not everyone has the opportunity to take AP courses and they want to appear as inclusive as possible.

I hate to continue a silly topic, but for completion:

http://catalog.yale.edu/first-year-...ration-credit-advanced-placement-test-scores/
http://catalog.yale.edu/first-year-...on/acceleration/table-of-acceleration-credit/

Looks like you get credit for some AP courses. Dang, this list looks a lot more generous than what I remembered!

el henry said:

Not at the Ivies. Everyone here who has gone to Yale, or lives with someone who does , has explained that you do NOT get “course credit” for an AP course. You may place out of a requirement, but you still need to take 36 classes and you need to take them, with limited exceptions, *at* Yale.

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el henry said:

I have seen no posts here from anyone who actually attended Yale, or from someone with a close family member (such as spousal unit who actually attended Yale, who says anything other than Yale) does *not* accept AP courses as course credit.

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Not quite. Here's what I said above:

ribbit said:

You can use AP credits to accelerate your graduation if you're planning to graduate in fewer than 8 semesters, but not to reduce the number of courses you take per semester. Your AP credits can be used to place into certain advanced courses instead of beginning with an introductory course, but they can't count toward your major requirements or any of the distributional requirements (the general education requirements that apply to all Yale undergraduates, regardless of major).

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"Acceleration" is one of those quirky Yale-specific terms, so it may be causing a bit of confusion. If you have enough AP credits (generally with a score of 4 or 5 on the exam), once you've completed three semesters at Yale, you can declare that you'd like to graduate either one or two semesters early: you accelerate. You're free to change your mind later and decelerate, and take the full eight semesters after all. But then all those other rules start kicking in: you have to take your remaining courses at Yale (not transferring them from other institutions), you have to carry a full course load in each semester at Yale in order to earn enough credits to graduate, and so on.

And Yale is unusually restrictive in how those AP credits can accelerate your graduation. Basically, they reduce the number of electives you take, and the number of courses in your language requirement. If you use AP credits to accelerate, you end up with a more focused educational experience centered on your major and your distributional requirements. I'd be sorry if I hadn't taken some of the amazing electives I was able to choose...and since one of those electives launched me on my major and my career, my life would be very different!


Back to Nathan: Not that he wants or needs my advice, but I would counsel him not to accelerate. Take time off altogether to skate if he wants to, but take advantage of the fact that he is eligible to take absolutely any course at Yale for which he has satisfied the prereqs: an art history course that goes to Rome for spring break, a course on ancient civilizations that will send him into the basement of the art gallery to look at Babylonian artifacts, a philosophy course on happiness or on death, a seminar on bioethics that purposely draws together science and humanities majors, a Shakespeare course that will take him to the rare-books library to look at the only surviving copy of the good quarto of Hamlet. If you're lucky enough to have the privilege of access to so many world-renowned experts teaching in their fields, backed up by such extraordinary resources, take full advantage of it!

jenaj said:

I went to a top 10 private college and got AP English course credit, so you might be right about Yale, but you are not right in general. AP credits/test scores are also not considered for admissions, in general. And they are called credits for a reason--because they can be accepted as college credit. You also don't need APs to skip out of foreign language. I placed out of the language requirement based on the SAT achievement test and most schools offer their own placement tests.

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Every school handles AP credits (and SAT/ACT tests, foreign language placement, etc.) differently. At Yale, AP scores can be used to place into a higher-level English course, or science course, or language course. But they don't exempt you from requirements altogether; even if you have a 5 (the maximum score) on an AP language test, you still have to complete one further course in that language, or to take another language through what is normally the second-semester level (i.e. to take two semesters of that language).

AP courses are taken into account in admissions decisions, in that having taken and succeeded in them is thought to show both academic ambition and the ability to do well in challenging college coursework.

el henry said:

That said, this is a discussion that has certainly run its course, and I apologize for contributing to it. I'm not a believer in "the last poster wins", so I will now bow out.

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Not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else, el henry, and I totally agree that the winner is not she who shouts loudest or longest! I'm not out to win or cause you or anyone else to lose, though my professorial instincts to clarify and correct can definitely run away with me. I'll step back for a bit now too.

ribbit said:

Basically, they reduce the number of electives you take, and the number of courses in your language requirement. If you use AP credits to accelerate, you end up with a more focused educational experience centered on your major and your distributional requirements.

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This sounds about right.

Nowadays every single person going into Yale unless they are an athletic recruit or a development admit is going to have taken a gazillion AP classes. Unless the average graduation rate at Yale is <4 years (which it's not), logically I don't think having taken AP classes will give you a leg up in graduating early. Some students will take longer than 4 years even with AP credit, and some students will work very hard and graduate in less than 4 years, which is certainly possible, but usually they devote more time than average on classwork, and are definitely not also pursuing an international skating career on the side. But this is all IME of course, so YMMV.

narcissa said:

I don't have a source, it's just personal experience? It's not something the university will publicize bc not everyone has the opportunity to take AP courses and they want to appear as inclusive as possible.

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Actually, schools do publicize their policies on their websites. AP credit is course credit. Not granting course credit for a high score is the exception rather than the rule.

ribbit said:

whole post

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Well, I lied about leaving Thank you very much for the explanations about the acceleration, you're never too old to learn. :agree: And your knowledge is far more recent than mine.

And you are absolutely right about the college experience, not that Nathan needs any advice from us. The point in going to a school like Yale is not to rush through it as fast as possible, but to linger, learn, and perhaps as spousal unit did, take architecture courses with someone like Vincent Scully, English with Robert Penn Warren etc. etc. Even if it's not or far and away from your major...

Now hopefully I really will step away, and leave everyone alone

jenaj said:

Actually, schools do publicize their policies on their websites. AP credit is course credit. Not granting course credit for a high score is the exception rather than the rule.

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I did say it would give you elective credit. Sometimes they're also called graduation credits. Maybe I can explain it easier this way: Yale could say you need 100 credits to graduate. They can also tell you you need to take XYZ classes to graduate in your major. AP classes will give you credit on the former, not the latter. And the XYZ classes you need to graduate will give you way more than 100 credits anyway. Thus, the AP classes don't give you much of a head start over others.

Your point IIRC is that AP credit will help Nathan graduate earlier. It really won't. But I don't really want to argue about this any more :confused2:

ribbit said:

... If you use AP credits to accelerate, you end up with a more focused educational experience centered on your major and your distributional requirements. I'd be sorry if I hadn't taken some of the amazing electives I was able to choose...and since one of those electives launched me on my major and my career, my life would be very different!


Back to Nathan: Not that he wants or needs my advice, but I would counsel him not to accelerate. Take time off altogether to skate if he wants to, but take advantage of the fact that he is eligible to take absolutely any course at Yale for which he has satisfied the prereqs: an art history course that goes to Rome for spring break, a course on ancient civilizations that will send him into the basement of the art gallery to look at Babylonian artifacts, a philosophy course on happiness or on death, a seminar on bioethics that purposely draws together science and humanities majors, a Shakespeare course that will take him to the rare-books library to look at the only surviving copy of the good quarto of Hamlet. If you're lucky enough to have the privilege of access to so many world-renowned experts teaching in their fields, backed up by such extraordinary resources, take full advantage of it! ...

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:agree: Very strongly agree. :agree:

I would reiterate that it would be great also to take full advantage of exposure to fellow students whose individual passions and interests are both deep and diverse.
Very possible for casual group conversation at a random lunch table in the dining hall to include one student seriously involved in immunology research; another in archaeology; another in elite sport; another in journalism; etc.; etc. (And some students are double- or triple-threats.)
The more time to take part in an inspiring community that is committed to excellence and that is brimming with intellectual energy/curiosity, the better.

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ribbit said:

... my professorial instincts to clarify and correct can definitely run away with me...

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Given the thread's active discussion of undergrad education at Yale (regardless of Nathan), the clarifying/correcting in your post is constructive, IMO .

ghug: For better or worse, I think many of us on GS [including some non-professors like me] have similar instincts and/or have taken an AP course in Clarifying/Correcting . You are setting a good example in keeping things constructive .)

Here is Ice Network's article about Nathan & Yale

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/04/03/270628238

Mango said:

Here is Ice Network's article about Nathan & Yale

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/04/03/270628238

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I just read it, and was going to post it. Thanks for doing it already. I really don't get all the stuff earlier on about certain types of credits and stuff (I studied in a different system), whether online will do or not, but to me it seems pretty clear he plans to do both, and has even checked certain competition dates with the University agenda. Seems rather promising in my view. He's ambitious, he's smart (very) and I rather like it in him that he spoke to Paul Wylie about it all. And he's only 18! I sincerely hope he pulls both paths off!

Raf called Nathan “his baby.” Sometimes he manages to reveal what a softie he really is.