2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

moonvine · Jan 28, 2020

Makemi said:
If emotional, moving performances could win championships, Jason Brown would be 2014 US National Champion and Ashley Wagner would be 2016 World Champion. But figure skating is a sport and it just doesn't work that way.

Honestly from the reactions in this thread it's like this is the first time this has ever happened. I mean Tara won US Nationals in 1997 when she was 14, then went on to win Worlds that same year (and she will forever hold the record of world's youngest World Champion ever since the ISU changed the min age after that). And Mirai won 2008 Nationals at age 14, too young to go to Worlds. Actually of the four podium winners that year, only Ashley was old enough to go to Worlds. Rachel Flatt was 15 (just missed the cut-off), and Caroline Zhang was 14.

Juniors skating as seniors domestically has been going on forever. And not just US or Russia. Young You became Korean National Champion at age 11. Yuna Kim became National Champion at age 12. The only thing that has changed is the minimum age to skate as a senior.

Arguably Alysa should not have won last year and USFS seemed quite ready to anoint Bradie or Mariah... had they skated clean. This year I felt Alysa's win was fully deserved. Yes, Mariah skated lights out in an emotional performance that had me in tears (it really was beautiful, I was so proud of her!). But Alysa also won me over with a different emotion - pure joy. Just pure joy and the love of skating. I hope she never loses that.

In any case I don't think we should be worried about Alysa. She's very self-aware. In her interviews she emphasized taking care of her body, making sure she gets good nutrition, and watching how much she's practicing. She's actually said she can't wait to grow because it will help her movement and lines on the ice. She knows her weaknesses, or she wouldn't have spent time with Carolina Kostner. The goal is Beijing 2022 and I trust her team will pace her so she gets there safely. I certainly can't wait to see what will unfold!

TBH I loved that entire podium. All four (including Karen) did exceptionally well and I really couldn't be prouder of our ladies.

And again Tara still has physical problems to this day. And Caroline Zhang had hip dysplasia and didn’t do too much after her junior international assignments. Rachel had recurrent injuries. And none of these ladies was doing quads or triple axels. Taras signature was a triple loop triple loop combo. And she had hip surgery at the age of 18. That’s surgery more associated with the elderly.

Greengemmonster · Jan 28, 2020

moonvine said:
And again Tara still has physical problems to this day. And Caroline Zhang had hip dysplasia and didn’t do too much after her junior international assignments. Rachel had recurrent injuries. And none of these ladies was doing quads or triple axels. Taras signature was a triple loop triple loop combo. And she had hip surgery at the age of 18. That’s surgery more associated with the elderly.

Bradie spent a significant amount of time in a back brace when she was younger, Zhenya busted her foot during Olympics season and had a shot back last season, Rika hurt a tendon and couldn't jump lutzes. I could go on. It's a brutal sport, they get injured. Some have better luck than others in terms of health.

I doubt Alysa, her dad and her team are out to cripple her for the sake of a few tournaments. I am sure they are balancing the fine line between her learning uber jumps and the wear and tear on her body.

Is this really about the sake of Alysa's health or is it because she's being pesky and winning Nationals?

Should she stop learning jumps and sit at home until her bones miraculously toughen and become impervious at 18 years old when she can then try to learn triples and emote like an angsty 30 yr old to keep her nay sayers happy?

Moxiejan · Jan 28, 2020

In the case of Tara, I’ve read that while at peak training (age 13-15), she often would get into a “jump frenzy” of insisting on doing a certain number each session, even after having landed several successfully. She would do more jumps in one day than others were doing in a week. And with the loop-loop combo especially, that obviously led to a lot of physical issues.

I’m hoping that with what is known now about jump injuries, coaches are being much more strict about limiting the number of attempts each day, especially for quads/3As and especially for very young skaters such as Alysa.

moonvine · Jan 28, 2020

macy said:
i just edited my comment and added some thoughts on the scoring system, let me know what you think.

It’s something to think about. As well as devaluing quads.

Icey · Jan 28, 2020

If a skater has a "senior" technical arsenal, I think they should be allowed to compete on the senior level nationally and internationally, no matter their age.

elbkup · Jan 28, 2020

Icey said:
If a skater has a "senior" technical arsenal, I think they should be allowed to compete on the senior level nationally and internationally, no matter their age.

Agree with this 100 percent. Training, talent and brillance should be rewarded at the time life bestows them... the argument that younger skaters who have achieved greatness in their youth should wait til they are "of age tomorrow" is hard to understand. ... tomorrow is promised to no one..

brightphoton · Jan 28, 2020

Mariah also had the advantage of picking the very beloved Hallelujah as her free program music. Inspiring and beautiful. Whereas Alysa chose something that sounded like the music they play on telephones when you get put on hold. There's an inherent disadvantage there.

I love Adam but I don't like the Britney Spears medley he chose. When I first watched a bootleg steam version of Mariah's short program, I genuinely thought the uploader replaced the music with generic, copyright-free telephone-hold music and overlayed it over the original Britney music. I watched the official NBC version and then I discovered that really was her short program music ...

oatmella · Jan 28, 2020

moonvine said:
It’s something to think about. As well as devaluing quads.

Quads were already given lower BV after the 2017-18 season.

Alysa would have won without her quad attempt, and she won her title last year without quads.

KatGrace1925 · Jan 28, 2020

oatmella said:
Quads were already given lower BV after the 2017-18 season.

Alysa would have won without her quad attempt, and she won her title last year without quads.

Last year could have been Bradie or Mariah’s but neither of them really stepped up to the challenge and both made errors that were costly. I don’t think Alysa winning was really guaranteed last year had the others stepped up, she had a higher base value but not that much higher.

KatGrace1925 · Jan 28, 2020

Happy Skates said:
If you say you're offended at that, then on the flip side others could say that it is offensive to say that Alysa is all tech and no emotion/performance. I don't see how one can watch that performance and not see emotion and interpretation. (and btw I'm not the one saying Mariah is a "bad skater" and I don't agree with that - although I don't see anyone using that harsh of language).

I read several commentors talking down Mariah’s skating skills. And it’s not offensive to say Alysa skates like a 14 year old, because she does. Her skating is kind of boring because it’s very juniorish. She has bright points that show how she could grow but I don’t expect mature programs from her at 13/14.

macy · Jan 28, 2020

i don't think devaluing quads is the answer...as i stated before, i would rather balance the scales by rewarding PCS more than it is now. the system very very much favors difficult jumps as the means to win, and PCS often feels like a 2nd priority or not as important as getting a quad. this way, the reward of doing the hard jumps is still there, but it would force skaters to prioritize the 2nd mark as another means of winning. i think it would create more full packaged skaters down the line. but, this is another topic for another thread. this is also not a stab at Alysa, as i stated before she won fairly based on the current system.

Seven Sisters · Jan 28, 2020

May I just say, I don’t understand the negativity I am seeing about Alysa Liu in this thread. I don’t care for ultra jump-centric programs either. But the pure joy of skating that she exudes is extraordinary, comparable to what Sean Rabbitt showed us all at Nationals. Even if you don’t care for her skating, you have to love that!

oatmella · Jan 28, 2020

KatGrace1925 said:
I read several commentors talking down Mariah’s skating skills. And it’s not offensive to say Alysa skates like a 14 year old, because she does. Her skating is kind of boring because it’s very juniorish. She has bright points that show how she could grow but I don’t expect mature programs from her at 13/14.

There’s a difference between saying Mariah is a bad skater or has poor skating skills, and thinking that her skating skills aren’t the best in the entire ladies international field. Even if they were, it wouldn’t be enough to make up for the BV difference with Alysa.

I don’t find Alysa’s skating or her programs at all boring, and she has improved since last year or even since the JGPF.

Moxiejan · Jan 28, 2020

Icey said:
If a skater has a "senior" technical arsenal, I think they should be allowed to compete on the senior level nationally and internationally, no matter their age.

I’m for that, as long as ALL elements (including skating speed, edge control, spin positions, expression) are judged on a senior level and not just the jumps. And that those jumps are also judged with senior standards as to height, distance & transitions.

Mathman · Jan 28, 2020

KatGrace1925 said:
{Allysa Liu's] skating is kind of boring because it’s very juniorish.

Boring is in the mind of the beholder. I believe that you are quite in the minority if you can't get into Alyssa's performances. Many people, both skating enthusiasts and casual viewers, can.

As for juniorish, I confess to not being 100% sure what that means. I can see the difference in the quality of movement between, say, Jason Brown's Riverdance (age 19) and his current Shindler's List. (age 25). Still, that's what cool about these competitions -- to see the mixture of youthful "I've got the world by the tail" derring-do, side by side with skaters trying to make a mature esthetic statement. It's all good. :yes:

Bluediamonds09 · Jan 28, 2020

I think that today is the second day of the junior worlds camp. Any news??

frida80 · Jan 28, 2020

Bluediamonds09 said:
I think that today is the second day of the junior worlds camp. Any news??

Just pics like this. It’s also a developmental camp for kids with potential. I hope their all having fun.

https://twitter.com/usfigureskating/status/1222243019052797953?s=21

moonvine · Jan 28, 2020

Mathman said:
Boring is in the mind of the beholder. I believe that you are quite in the minority if you can't get into Alyssa's performances. Many people, both skating enthusiasts and casual viewers, can.

As for juniorish, I confess to not being 100% sure what that means. I can see the difference in the quality of movement between, say, Jason Brown's Riverdance (age 19) and his current Shidler's List. (age 25). Still, that's what cool about these competitions -- to see the mixture of youthful "I've got the world by the tail" derring do, side by side with skaters trying to make a mature esthetic statement. It's all good. :yes:

I can’t get into them. Then again I can’t get into the Russian ladies performances. It just isn’t my cup of tea.

Skater Boy · Jan 28, 2020

moonvine said:
I can’t get into them. Then again I can’t get into the Russian ladies performances. It just isn’t my cup of tea.

Do you even drink tea??? LOL. I think we may prefer certain styles I personally find Bradie a bit bland though usually consistent and strong overall. Alysa is developingnicely but then again if you compare h er to others she does n oth ave the amplitude, strength and sureness of blade/edge of better. more mature skaters. Give her time;I thik she will do well Unlike the Russians, her body type appears more favorable for skating and jumps.

Oshun · Jan 28, 2020

Mariah delivered an incredible performance at Nationals. She always was a beautiful skater--good edges, great lines, artistry, and musicality--but she was not historically always as solidly prepared as she should have been and/or had a problem with overcoming competition nerves. She probably needed more attention and imposed discipline earlier in her career (and it is almost certainly too late for her to beat someone like Alysa now--e.g., not gonna pull any quads at of her bag at this stage in her life) but none of these things or her historic inconsistency ever take away from what she has delivered at Nationals and earlier this season. How could anyone who loves skating not enjoy watching that? I guess I will not argue about it here but just wanted to throw out my two cents worth.

2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

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