First, that's not true - https://skatingscores.com/1920/ladies/pcs/
Second, speaking of "maturity" - Kihira is just 17 y. o. and I don't think she had plenty of time to develop much more maturity than 16 y. o. Shcherbakova.
Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?
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Second, speaking of "maturity" - Kihira is just 17 y. o. and I don't think she had plenty of time to develop much more maturity than 16 y. o. Shcherbakova.
Well if you consider what i said before of these new girls getting 7s at one event and 9s 6 weeks later often for the same exact performance or sometimes even worse if you considers falls, i don't know how useful a sum of all scores in the season could be as a metric of comparison.
Going into Worlds 2020 (now canceled), Shcherbakova got higher components at Europeans than what Kihira got at 4CC, and because these scores are so dependant on momentum, what you get at the last event is probably more valuable, even though in theory it shouldn't matter, cause you should judge what you see in the moment.
In the case of Kihira vs Shcherbakova, it's not much about maturity (actually i'd argue Kihira still has to develop more personality) but skating skills, Shcherbakova skates on stiff knees a lot, which could also be the reason why some of the landings are standing still (like her 3flip-eu-3sal) with no speed coming out.
Well that seems the default answer everytime we try to get into details of skating, which to be honest i don't find particularly useful cause it aims at shutting down discussions.
In a figure skating forum i think it's everyone interest to get into the nitty gritty, both positive and negative aspects, and i find the current discussion on point with the premise of this thread.
Since you are new user here, maybe you're not aware that there is fan fest section with threads for each athlete.
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?362-Figure-Skating-Fan-Fests
Also i don't like the generalization you brought about Russian skaters vs Japanese skaters, cause for instance i do think overall Kostornaya skates better than Kihira, and even among russian skaters Buyanova and Panova groups work a lot on skating skills, more than Tutberidze group, you can clearly see that on basic stuff like gliding, crossovers, edges so even among the russians there are big distinctions often depending on the clubs or the first coaches these skaters had, so it's not all black or white, but again compared to past World Champions, i think all these youngsters skate worse than Mao or Yuna when they won Worlds, and the age could be a big reason why.
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Skating skills defined by ISU are certainly not only gliding and crossovers, actually using crossovers is specifically mentioned as a not very good demonstration of your skating skills. Basing your opinion on someone's skating skills by comparing their knees during the crossovers or on what is looking more 'aestetically pleasing' while gliding on ice is simply incorrect (in terms of actual judging of those skating skills in a sport competition). There are multiple ways to showcase your skating skills, and one way is not more legit than another.
E: And i'm pretty sure Yuna and Mao were exactly the same age as todays top skaters when they first time medaled at Worlds. Not to mention that, beside many of the fans, ISU and the judges also disagree with you that new generations are skating worse than them. No matter how i like to watch Mao skating videos, it sounds really unrealistic to claim how Rika's skating is worse than Mao :confused2:
Nothing of what i wrote before here and in the russian ladies thread goes against the definition of Skating Skills and the criteria listed by ISU. Mind you that i also talked about speed, flow in previous posts prior to the one you quoted
Program Component Chart from ISU website (updated 11 May 2020)
https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...96-program-component-chart-id-sp-2019-20/file
Skating Skills
"Defined by overall cleanness and sureness, edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, turns, steps, etc.), the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed"
- Use of deep edges, steps and turns
- Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
- Flow and glide
- Varied use of power, speed and acceleration
- Use of multi directional skating
- Use of one foot skating.
The only one i could give you is crossovers which ISU considers as part of transitions, but i mentioned it specifically in regards to posture.
On the last bit, well i'll be happy to change my opinion when i'll say Rika performing a steps sequence on the music and as complex on par with Mao's steps (and yes i know skating skills it's not just about steps), i think she could get there, but i again i was referring to the best version of Mao, not her senior debut.
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From what i see, those things you mentioned are just 50% of all Skating Skills criteria, so...
But I've never said those were the only criterias. You did say however that judging gliding and knees as part of skating skills is incorrect, that is why i bolded them.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.
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It is incorrect to generalize on the whole category based only on half of criteria defined by it - you can't base your scores only on gliding and knees, when there are more to look at. That is exactly the thing ISU Tech committee warn the judges in their last meeting as the most common mistake in judging components. Skater who demonstrated those criteria you mentioned should get the same skating skills score as the skater who demonstrated criteria you didn't mention at all. That was my point.
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I do wish people would NOT bash, it actually just makes the basher a crashing bore and makes the readers sympathise with and prefer the bashee to the basher's favourites. Certainly Rika and Alina, for instance, have gained fans thanks to their more relentless critics.
And guess what? There happens to be a difference between comparing and criticising, even calling one superior to another, and just plain bashing. I've been guilty of the latter, and been correctly called.
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Strange isnt it? Its like 2 + 2 = 5.
There is such a big gap between the Russian ladies and the Japanese ladies. :eeking: Then you go to the Russian B team Russian C team and Russian D team and the gap widens. So many here want Alina to retire which makes me want her to continue even more than before. Alina at 18 on top of Zhenya at 18 with her great Olympic skates under Eteri will prove to the world that Eteri can coach top level ladies 18 or older. :agree:
As for "Fifteen and sixteen year old skaters hav[ing] always led the way in this sport. That's just how it is.", I'm pretty sure Kamila Valieva and her coaches can show you just how wrong you are.
As for "content" there are quite a few YouTube videos to prove you wrong. I suggest starting with the medal ceremonies in addition to the programs of the junior circuit from the past year or so.
If we compare flow across the ice and control over the edges, Kihira is BY FAR inferior to Asada at the same age.
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Re-watched some of Mao Asada's skates from the 2007-2008 season and nope, not even close. Kihira's skating skills are so clearly superior it's not even funny. Asada mostly does empty pond skating from element to element and the step sequences are visibly laboured. After watching all those, I went back and watched Rika Kihira's skates from the 4 continents and already after 5 seconds of watching the start of her SP, I was 100% convinced her skating skills are far, far superior to Asada's at the same age.
Asada's skating in 07-08 reminds me of middling level Russian skaters in Russian novice competitions.
IDK what most of that means. But it's ok. Asada's skating is better. I'm fine with empty pond skating, and if middling Russian novices are so great, they are welcome to deliver any of Asada's greatest skating, and so is Kihira. They won't be able to.
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Mao has better flow on the ice because she was doing mostly simple crossovers from elements to elements. Rika is much superior in demonstration of different steps and turns (because of which her flow may look compromised, but you can't have the same type of flow when you are doing more of actual skating on the ice), as multidirectional and one-foot skating, and general speed and power. Mao maybe appeared as more elegant on the ice - but there is no points for that in skating skills, and she developed better feel for the music in her later years than what Rika has today. So, the only category where Mao could be better than Rika is Interpretation of the music, but than again Rika seems more oriented to the music during her performance where Mao spent more time on the preparation for the jumps, so i'm not sure that Mao would beat her even in that mark...
topic:Mao has better flow on the ice because she has better rhythmic knee action. Rika Kihira has never in her life demonstrated the vocabulary Asada was capable of, and showcased in her 2008 and 2009 SPs.
"More elegant" can be something that contributes to skating skills. Clunky skating won't be elegant.
I'm not even going to comment on your understanding of musicality.
"More elegant" can be something that contributes to skating skills. Clunky skating won't be elegant.
I'm not even going to comment on your understanding of musicality.
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I think to anybody that's capable of even a half objective observation it's clear that the skaters from the 2000s generation like Kostner, Asada, Kim when they were that age that these current phenomena are at right now, let's say anywhere 12-16, were not even close to what these kids show today. Neither in program complexity, nor in transitions and most definitely not in technical content.
And subjectively adding: neither in skating skills if you compare 15yo Mao to 15yo Kostornaya for example. But that comes down to specific skaters.
But that's okay :confused2:
Sports advance, that's their nature. And of course Mao or Kim at 19 or 20 had better SS and programs that 13yo novices. That's why the point is- at that age.
And subjectively adding: neither in skating skills if you compare 15yo Mao to 15yo Kostornaya for example. But that comes down to specific skaters.
But that's okay :confused2:
Sports advance, that's their nature. And of course Mao or Kim at 19 or 20 had better SS and programs that 13yo novices. That's why the point is- at that age.
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So if a skater A demonstrated better flow by using rhythmic knee action during the crossovers (which is just 1 of the criteria in the SS category), and skater B instead of crossovers was doing all the other things written in the criteria (the rest 4 of them), of course that skater B will get higher Skating Skills mark than skater A. You can look at actual judges scores for the conformation of that. There is no 'elegant vs clunky' comparison in the SS criteria, but there is 'doing simple crossovers vs doing multiple steps and turns by using one foot and multidirectional skating' comparison. And also, musicality (feel for the music) is not the same thing as the score judges are giving for the Interpretation of the music in the actual skating performance. You can be the most musical skater in the world, but if you spend a lot of your skating time on preparation for the jumps (and simple stroking) and not on doing some movement to the music, your actual scores wont be that high. It's one thing to posses better skating vocabulary (which i'm sure Mao has now) but another thing is what you are capable to achieve in 3 minutes of one exact skating performance.
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