2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

alexaa · Oct 22, 2019

Post 550, the very first post

bonita said:
Amazed by the amount of Nathan bashing. And I didn’t know Nathan performed 4 minutes of jumping. I must have watched a different competition then, watching the audiences went wild during the footwork. I guess those in the arena are not figure skating fans, but crazy jumping lunatics.

I am wondering how this bashing would end? Maybe Nathan better stop ruining this artistic sport by just go back school and quit skating after Beijing.

Post 554, which were further explanations of 550

bonita said:
If you think twisting a turnout as a step out in his SP is not an attack,
If you think his perfect time to music lz combo and 3A, his spread eagle right after the only successful 4F in this competition as only jumping attempts, his risky but hard practised footwork are nothing but jump attempts are not bashing or attacks, then well people are not bashing in your standard, and he is a jumping machine indeed，then there is no bashing.

He won by 44 points, even if you reduced all those “PCS” inflation, he is still dominating, unlike some posts complained his the inflated PCS contributed his dominance. To me, twisting of facts is bashing.

The followings are the quotes I was addressing to in my post 550, EVAMARIA removed the part probably the second day after my post 565. But luckily in post 547, right before my post 550, milkgirl quoting her and claimed it was “Top Jump competition”, and she then replied”thank you milkgirl”

“Quote Originally Posted by EVAMARIA View Post
Watched the Mens FP.
Favourite is Jason, stunning performance great program. This is figure skating for me.

Nathan, sorry but here is the depressing part. That was not figure skating for me but jump skating. His PCS is unbelievable. Skating/preparing for the big jumps The steps ok though. It's makes me sad that this is what ISU wants figure skating to look like.
There used to be a jump competition in France cant remember the name, perhaps there still is...”

This is the post 547, a reply to the above post by EVAMRIA

milkgirl said:
The competition was called Top Jump.

Post 548

EVAMARIA said:
Ok thank you milkgirl!

Post 537

karne said:
This is the most accurate response, thankyou.

Because anyone with half a brain knows that one doesn't preclude the other? Nathan being "dominate" should have nothing to do with his PCS and it should be noted that a contribution to his "dominate" performances has been his excessively inflated PCS. There is no universe where Chen should beat Jason on PCS unless Jason has a total meltdown. That Nathan was put four whole points above an exquisite Jason free is beyond a joke.

This post 463 of Men’s SP thread is the “step out” referred in my 550 and related. Despite several posts pointing out later Nathan didn’t have a step out, but rather a turn out, she never corrected her post of the step out.

karne said:
From the ISU comms.

Bullet points:
1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo/sequence)
2) good take-off and landing
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) very good body position from take-off to landing
6) element matches the music

Now, to start at +4 or +5, the skater MUST achieve ALL THREE bolded bullet points. To me, you can't give 2, and I would find 1 debatable - it was good, but I wouldn't say it was huge. But at any rate, the very presence of a step out means that Nathan cannot start at anything higher than +3 because he did not get all three bolded bullets.

So I'm starting with +1 after the bolded bullets (I'm not giving the very good height/length. It was big, but I've seen bigger). Of the other three bullets, I'm only giving 5 for body position. No steps or creative entry, and I didn't think it matched the music that well. So I'm starting at +2.

Reductions for errors: the reduction for "stepping out of landing in a jump" is -3 to -4.

So the very highest that Nathan should have got for that Lutz is 0, because you can't start any higher than +3. I had it at -2 (reducing 4 from +2).

And this post, post 216 is actually in this very thread. This was the initial post which made me want to post about bashing. I originally replied to her but later deleted, and post all my complaint in 550 and related.

karne said:
Because when you're getting ninety-****ing-four PCS for skating jump to jump then having a fun ChSq anyway, why bother?

There were criticism about his SP being the same as Nemesis, he never changed or anything, which I never responded. Those are their observations and opinions,
which even though I don’t agree with, I think it is pointless to argue about.

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 22, 2019

karne said:
So I'm starting with +1 after the bolded bullets (I'm not giving the very good height/length. It was big, but I've seen bigger).

This is so hilarious!! I’d love to see it added to the official ISU rule book as an official judging standard :laugh:

Bullet 1) Very good height and length (in all jumps in a combo/seq) but have you seen bigger?

1111bm · Oct 22, 2019

el henry said:
For example, I certainly would disagree with a poster who wanted to criticize Jason's skating skills or presentation in this performance of Schindler's List because I would find such criticism to be unfounded and untrue based on what Jason put out on the ice and I would describe why I thought so. So I would like to see what posts you are referring to so I can read to determine for myself if it is a result of a "general vibe" or of that poster's honestly held belief.

But that is totally fine, to disagree on something and discuss, maybe even provide examples like pictures or videos to illustrate how one arrives at a certain conclusion. This is how it should be.

What I object to is, when I point out flaws in a skater, that genuinely bother me, and I even offer a detailed description of what I find unappealing, instead of a general statement that isn’t telling us much such as "so and so is reeeally bad". And then someone objects to my tone or choice of words (which was totally in line with the tone used in earlier posts from the same discussion, but curiously no one objected to that) and I get either suspected of hating said skater, i.e. being biased, so my opinion and tone is likely coloured by that dislike, or of being motivated by the need to retaliate (at least I felt that was implied).
To me that is just undermining someone’s argument without tackling its content.

el henry said:
Could you please give examples of posts where you believe that certain aspects of Jason's skating cannot be criticized?

I have not seen that at all, at least in this forum. General statements like "there is a general vibe" or "some people" do not prove any point, so I would like to see links to specific posts. Thanks.

From the 2019 Skate America: Day 2 - Thoughts and Highlights thread:

GoneWithTheWind said:
I liked Nathan a lot more than I thought I would, and didn't enjoy Jason as much as I thought I would. From what I've read, I was expecting Nathan to skate from jump to jump and that basically be it, while Jason would be so emotive and expressive. But Nathan was so much more entertaining than I expected, while I wasn't totally sold on Jason's free.
Just my opinion based on my first viewing, please don't be mad! :scard8:

Plus the example that medoroa already kindly provided.

el henry said:
Can you point for example to a post that was meant in fun where I did not take it in the intended spirit? Can you point to specific posts that you think were meant in fun where another poster did not take it in the spirit in which it was intended, so I can judge for myself?

I will, if you show me where exactly in my post I talked about ‚comments that were meant in fun, but weren’t taken as such‘.

I believe I was talking about ‚proper‘ critical comments, some of which could be regarded as entertaining enough to not be taken too seriously and as a result get embraced by some fans or a fandom.

medoroa said:
I do actually agree with bonita that skating fandom tends to decide on a "correct opinion" for certain skaters which are then considered the "norm" without much scrutiny.

This, a 1000 times. This is in fact one of the main things bothering me about skating fandom.

Btw, you confused me with bonita ;p (sorry bonita!)

1111bm · Oct 22, 2019

Sam-Skwantch said:
This is so hilarious!! I’d love to see it added to the official ISU rule book as an official judging standard

Bullet 1) Very good height and length (in all jumps in a combo/seq) but have you seen bigger?

I believe @CanadianSkaterGuy provided a good discussion of this in a recent thread.

I think that debate was triggered by some fans asking for lower GOE for every skater whose 3A is not as freakishly high and long as Yuzu's, or something along those lines, when in fact everyone with height and length above a certain threshold will get that bullet.

discode · Oct 22, 2019

Yeah, very good height and distance = does it have good height and distance? Yes. Well, there you go +3. There is not a footnote stating does it have the same height as Mikhail Kolyada's legendary 2017 Cup of China 4lz? If not, then +1

I also never understood rescoring a skater you have a strong dislike for while talking about fairness. :think:

buttercup2015 · Oct 22, 2019

I also never understood rescoring a skater you have a strong dislike for while talking about fairness.

:agree::thumbsup:

Tavi... · Oct 22, 2019

bonita said:
Tavi, I usually didn’t want get into arguments among Nathan’s rivals in a competition. But since you mentioned post 550 and related in your post, let us see what are post 550 are about. The posts you referred to are 550,554 and 565. I specified very clearly what I complained about in post 554 and later on in 565. Let’s see if I am complaining about actual criticism rather than untrue bashing.

I quoted part of 565 here because it is super long. I will put original quote of 550 and 554 in a separate response

And the timeline of the posts: I posted #550, 551 and 554 the evening of 19th, actually early morning of 20th before going to bed. 551 was information about costume, the background story of music choice etc. I made further clarification in post 565 when I woke up 20th to address the confusion caused by 550 and 554.

Hi Bonita - I’m getting ready for work and don’t have time to go back and read what you wrote in the other thread, but when I brought your post up in this thread it wasn’t criticize it. I was simply using it as an example, to say that both Nathan and Jason fans dislike it when their favorite skater is being bashed or overly criticized. I hope that clears things up.

eterialskater · Oct 22, 2019

fzztsimmons said:
This is so rude. Regardless of technical capability, these are world class athletes who dedicate themselves to training for hours a day, every day, putting all aspects of their life on hold. The idea that someone is just a "sideshow" because they don't have quad jumps is disrespectful. If that's the case, virtually all of the men who were at Skate America should give up on skating, because they all made mistakes and failed to show their technical ability. These are people who put blood, sweat and tears into their training, and that should be respected, regardless of whether you like that skater or not, and regardless of whether they're the number 1 skater in the world or not.

I suppose this whole fawning over Jason and his supposed PCS superiority and that people should just accept that his ceiling is a scratchy 3A has made me somewhat cynical each time someone praises him to high heavens. Honestly I've never been a fan of his skating. I think there's a lot to like if like me you prefer Eteri style programs that pack as much choreography and transitions into a program. But sadly I cannot stand the over the top extensions and positions Jason constantly finds himself in. I like more subtle movements like how Hanyu does choreography instead of looking like someone doing stretching and flexibility exercises. My standard of lyrical skating in the men is either Hanyu or Chan. Still preferred Chan's style though. TBH though I was more of a Fernandez fan. His 3 quad programs were the one that made a fan of men's skating. So in conclusion I would say ultimately it's Jason's poor tech that has made me dislike him and his brand of lyrical style is not my cup of tea.

sworddance21 · Oct 22, 2019

So, here's something controversial...I like Jason's skating and I like Nathan's skating.

fzztsimmons · Oct 22, 2019

eterialskater said:
I suppose this whole fawning over Jason and his supposed PCS superiority and that people should just accept that his ceiling is a scratchy 3A has made me somewhat cynical each time someone praises him to high heavens. Honestly I've never been a fan of his skating. I think there's a lot to like if like me you prefer Eteri style programs that pack as much choreography and transitions into a program. But sadly I cannot stand the over the top extensions and positions Jason constantly finds himself in. I like more subtle movements like how Hanyu does choreography instead of looking like someone doing stretching and flexibility exercises. My standard of lyrical skating in the men is either Hanyu or Chan. Still preferred Chan's style though. TBH though I was more of a Fernandez fan. His 3 quad programs were the one that made a fan of men's skating. So in conclusion I would say ultimately it's Jason's poor tech that has made me dislike him and his brand of lyrical style is not my cup of tea.

That’s fine if he’s not your cup of tea. Everyone has different tastes and likes different people, and has a different interpretation of what is artistic or not.

But calling someone a “sideshow” is disrespectful to the incredible amount of hard work and effort that athlete puts in to all components of a programme. You may not like extended flexible moves and that’s fine, but it still requires an incredible amount of training and work to achieve those things. All skaters competing at a top level work extremely hard, regardless of whether they’re successful at competition or not. And yes in terms of jumps Jason is more limited but that isn’t the only technical part of skating, Jason excells in many other areas and puts lots of effort into training them.

Like I said, you don’t have to like his skating, that’s fine, but it’s rude to disrespect the work he puts in and to make derogatory comments. And this goes for all the skaters, not just Jason.

Seren · Oct 22, 2019

eterialskater said:
Nathan has great posture, also musical, has great SS and has excellent jumping technique and difficulty. Most importantly he is competitive. Why are some people still comparing him to a skater who has been a mere sideshow each time he manages to qualify to GPF and Worlds.

Jason also has great posture, musicality, and SS. He is also upfront about his shortcomings and is working really hard to correct them. He wouldn’t have changed coaches if he wanted to stay the same. I don’t understand why people can’t respect that- calling him a sideshow as though his skating has little value is unkind. That sideshow was 2nd in the short program at Worlds.

And actually, I think his skating adds a lot of value to the sport as a whole. There was an interview with Brian Orser last year where he said he uses Jason’s SP last year as an example to his younger athletes about quality scoring high marks.

I am personally not a fan of Nathan’s style of skating but respect the hard work he has put in to improve his shortcomings and his incredible technical mastery. He is a once in a generation talent. But that doesn’t mean other skaters can’t be better than him in components. He may be the best or one of the best overall (I consider Nathan and Yuzuru in a league of their own) but that doesn’t mean he is the best at everything.

el henry · Oct 22, 2019

oatmella said:
Nathan respects Jason as a competitor, and we should as well.

:thumbsup:And Jason respects Nathan as a competitor, and we should as well.

All the skaters are putting their very best out there. The skaters recognize it, so why can’t we?

Jumping off, just for me, I don’t think it serves any purpose to criticize a fan base, or “some people” generically on a public forum. It only causes at best confusion or at worst Robert DeNiro reactions, hey, you talking about me: :biggrin:

We have enough skating to talk about without talking about fans

Jaana · Oct 22, 2019

el henry said:
:thumbsup:And Jason respects Nathan as a competitor, and we should as well.

What else could they say in an interview :laugh:

?

el henry · Oct 22, 2019

Jaana said:
What else could they say in an interview ?

Have you watched the interviews?

I think I have the right amount of cynicism for someone who’s walked this earth for more than six decades.

having watched both Nathan’s and Jason’s interviews, the way it was phrased, how they answered, what they said, it wasn’t some canned PR.

I believe them:yes:

Jaana · Oct 22, 2019

Well, I have seen enough interviews... Of course skaters are polite and praising towards other skaters, that is a part in their job, so to speak. And this coming from someone who has (apparently) been walking longer than you, el Henry.

el henry · Oct 22, 2019

Jaana said:
Well, I have seen enough interviews... Of course skaters are polite and praising towards other skaters, that is a part in their job, so to speak. And this coming from someone who has (apparently) been walking longer than you, el Henry.

Welcome, fellow long earth walker :laugh:

If you haven’t seen these interviews, I don’t know what to say. They weren’t generic canned answers. Nathan has genuine respect and praise for his competitors in this interview. Jason has genuine respect and praise for his competitors.

And I respect their opinions

alexaa · Oct 22, 2019

Link to Nathan’s interview. I haven’t got time to watch Jason’s yet, as Olympic channel keeps directing somewhere else. Hope Jason fan would post it. I am sure it will be fun to watch.

https://twitter.com/olympicchannel/status/1186023933167984640?s=20

direct link to the Olympic channel video. He seemed to be under weather during the interview, probably during the competition.

https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/video/detail/skate-america-champ-nathan-chen-speaks-meryl-davis/

Here is summary of part of Nathan interview concerning Jason, friendly relationship between current skaters, and what impact he wants to leave to the sport. There are more still a lot more in this interview than what is in the summary in this post. I highly recommend everyone who is interested in Nathan's development to watch it.

1. "quad king" nickname

If anyone is to be called "Quad King", it would have to be Tim Goebel. Nathan doesn't feel right technically taking that nickname from him. It wasn't entirely Nathan that started adding quads into the program, it was mixed result of him, Boyang, Shoma, Yuzuru, all those amazing skaters throwing quads. It is the collectively all of them that have pushed the quad envelope.

2. On top of the quads, what impact does Nathan want to leave the sport?

Nathan said something he noticed with the current guys skating, the top 10 guys, actually all the guys there right now, they are all very competitive, but they also realize how much work every single person has to put into this sport, how dedicated, how devoted they have been to this sport, and continue to be. And he thinks that because of that mutual respect, they all genuinely are friendly to each other. They genuinely care about each other beyond just skating sort of competitive respect. They actually care about how the person is doing, and all these different things. He feels like people are trying harder to be nicer, to be better competitors, better sportsman. He really likes that trend, and he is really hoping that continues to develop.

He said more than the above.

3. Thinking about the comnination of the very demanding athletic side of the skating, the artistic side of skating. How does he personally approach that now, as the sport is progressing? and how does he interpret the direction the sport is going?

Nathan said that it is really awesome to be able to see Jason on the podium, because notably, Jason doesn't have a quad, or at least Jason didn't compete with quad. He has seen Jason do it, and Jason is capable of doing it. He didn't do it at this competition, and Jason is still able to succeed, he is still able to get a medal.

It is awesome to be able to see that there is so many different levels of skating that is not just technique.
...
But aside from that (talking about his coaching team, cleaning up jumps and improve on things.) really use Jason as a great example to see, there are so many other points he can take on.

Side note: Nathan repeatedly mentions Boyang, Shoma, Yuzu, Javi, Patrick in his past interviews when asked about quads or quad revolution, regardless if any of these skaters specifically being asked by the interviewer. If anyone still mad at "Nathan being called quad king", blame the person, not Nathan. He is as humble as he can be.

fzztsimmons · Oct 22, 2019

I don't know if Jason's interview is still available as it was an Instagram live story on the Olympic Channel, but I posted a transcript of it on Jason's fan fest here
In regards to Nathan, and the PCS/TES debate, this is what Jason had to say:

"Nathan said to Meryl he really admires Jason's skating. Jason said he was very flattered to hear this from the best skater in the world and that he is very jealous of Nathan's jumps. He feels that Nathan has pushed Jason to improve his artistry. He tries his quads every day and still struggles with them, so in the meantime he realised he needs to keep pushing all the other elements to maximise points.

He also wants the younger generation to know that there is still a place in the sport for those who do not have the quads but love performing and spins and footwork. There is room in the sport for both."

As with the Nathan interview, Jason touched on a lot more in his interview, he went into detail re his car accident and concussion, his relationship with Brian and Tracy, and of course, the Quads.
Jason said prior car-accident/concussion he was training the Quad Toe, Sal and Flip, but now is focusing just on Toe and Sal post-concussion. Also when asked about the development of quads within the ladies field, Jason said he was excited to see where it goes - he doesn't want people to think he is anti-quads! He said, if you can jump them, then do it! He would if he could!

If you can get a link to the interview it was definitely worth watching in my opinion.

ice coverage · Oct 22, 2019

sworddance21 said:
So, here's something controversial...I like Jason's skating and I like Nathan's skating.

:agree: While we're at it, I like Vincent's skating too :yes:, as well as Nathan's and Jason's.

Congratulations to Nathan :yay: and to Jason :yay:.
At Skate America, I was cheering for both of them. Also cheering with all my heart for Dima and Keegan.

Different discipline, but on the topic of feeling supportive of those in a rivalry and/or in competition against each other:
Haven and Brandon's FS brought me to tears of happiness for them -- two great partners who have been working so hard and have overcome so much. And then immediately afterward, Ashley and Tim's FS brought me to tears of sadness for them -- also two great partners who have been working so hard and have overcome so much.

(As long as every skater is treated with respect, I of course understand that there is nothing wrong with having special favorites. I still miss Max like crazy.)

For me, Josh's masterpiece to Schindler's List is absolutely unforgettable.

Doesn't mean that I don't appreciate Jason's and Satoko's SL programs too. Look forward to seeing their programs continue to grow throughout the season. :popcorn:

moonvine · Oct 23, 2019

sworddance21 said:
So, here's something controversial...I like Jason's skating and I like Nathan's skating.

Me too! Lets start a club :biggrin:

2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

alexaa

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

1111bm

1111bm

discode

buttercup2015

Tavi...

eterialskater

Guest

sworddance21

fzztsimmons

Seren

Wakabond Forever

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Jaana

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Jaana

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

alexaa

fzztsimmons

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

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