2014 Cup of China Mens Short Program 11/07

[TMC]

Yeesh, rewatching all of these SP's again, Misha Ge should have WON this competition in the end.

:thumbsup: I like you more and more every day BoP

 

[Meoima]

It may seem like a funny joke to you but I wasn't joking. My appreciation of Han Yan's skills is not based on a single competition (CoC in this case), but on my observation in time. I respectfully disagree about Kovtun having better character than Yan, and respectfully disagree about Hanyu being an artistic skater like Takahashi. While his presentation is much improved, I wouldn't compare him to Takahashi just yet.

And Aesthetics's view is from a person who have watched these skaters LIVE, not through video and youtube clips.

I'd always thought that Han Yan's jumps were high until posters who had seen him LIVE several times said that, NO. Han Yan's jumps are "far across the ice" but not very high. It's understandable because he jumps so far, the height of the jumps might be sacrificed a bit.

Until you have seen them LIVE, all the conclusion about their speed and the high of their jumps, ice presence and their control of the blades are just your subjective opinion though video, and video might fool you thanks to the camera following skaters every step. For example I hadn't known Miki Ando's jumps were actually quite big until I saw her LIVE.

And Aesthetics didn't said "Yuzuru is an artistic skater like Takahashi". She said Yuzuru "has gone from an athletic jumper to something like an artistic skater like Takahashi". It means he has improved his artistry and heading towards Dai's direction. It doesn't mean he is on the same level as Dai. It only means he is trying to head towards that goal and he has shown some improvement.

 

[ioanna]

And Aesthetics's view is from a person who have watched these skaters LIVE, not through video and youtube clips.

I'd always thought that Han Yan's jumps were high until posters who had seen him LIVE several times said that, NO. Han Yan's jumps are "far across the ice" but not very high. It's understandable because he jumps so far, the height of the jumps might be sacrificed a bit.

Until you have seen them LIVE, all the conclusion about their speed and the high of their jumps, ice presence and their control of the blades are just your subjective opinion though video, and video might fool you thanks to the camera following skaters every step. For example I hadn't known Miki Ando's jumps were actually quite big until I saw her LIVE.

And Aesthetics didn't said "Yuzuru is an artistic skater like Takahashi". She said Yuzuru "has gone from an athletic jumper to something like an artistic skater like Takahashi". It means he has improved his artistry and heading towards Dai's direction. It doesn't mean he is on the same level as Dai. It only means he is trying to head towards that goal and he has shown some improvement.

By saying "Hanyu has gone from an athletic jumper to an artistic skater" means he already is an artistic skater, not still going in that direction. That's what I understood from Aesthetics' post. I already pointed out Hanyu's great improvement (posture wise, skating skills wise, presentation wise) in my original post so I don't understand what the problem is.

I appreciate Aesthetics' point of view from seeing the competition live but does that mean I cannot have a different opinion? Does that mean Aesthetics is free to label it as a joke?

 

[Meoima]

By saying "Hanyu has gone from an athletic jumper to an artistic skater" means he already is an artistic skater, not still going in that direction. That's what I understood from Aesthetics' post. I already pointed out Hanyu's great improvement (posture wise, skating skills wise, presentation wise) in my original post so I don't understand what the problem is.
I appreciate Aesthetics' point of view from seeing the competition live but does that mean I cannot have a different opinion? Does that mean Aesthetics is free to label it as a joke?

Ah yes, I don't agree about the "joke". But to her, who have seen these skaters live, she can't see that Han Yan has better skating skills than Yuzuru. So she's shock/baffled by your statement. I remember someone said "Mao Asada is fat" and I asked why, she said "I can see that through videos" and I replied "that sounds like a joke". I think it's not that insulting. This case might be the same.

Anyways I appreciate opinions of people who have seen these skaters live. (Mrs. P has seen Yuzuru live, and I believe what she said about his speed and skills). I think when Aesthetics said "has gone from ... to something like" means he has improved towards that direction. She didn't said he is on the same level of artistry as DAI IMO. And compare to all the men in CoC, it's objectively true that Yuzuru has better artistry. There's nothing wrong with that statement IMO.

I also don't think that Kovtun has more character than Han Yan. I think Han Yan has better skating skills than Kovtun. SP was just an off day for Han Yan.

 

[satine]

I believe Hanyu says "I don't even want to know" instead of "I don't go to finals", and Brian answers "No exhibition" and not "no axels".

You're right, it's definitely exhibition! I'm not sure about what Y says at 9:00 hwell: I thought it could be "I don't go to final" or "I don't make it to final", but I guess it could be "I don't even want to know". I thought with how Brian responded after ("Well you never know actually") fit with "I don't go/make it to final" but I honestly can't hear which it is. I'll edit the post to include that though

Yeah it does seem like Brian said "no exhibition" instead. I'm not sure what Hanyu was mumbling there, might have been something like "I don't even want to find out" or something. It's hard to tell because of the background noise and I'm not used to his speech.

:agree:

 

[ioanna]

Ah yes, I don't agree about the "joke". But to her, who have seen these skaters live, she can't see that Han Yan has better skating skills than Yuzuru. So she's shock/baffled by your statement. I remember someone said "Mao Asada is fat" and I asked why, she said "I can see that through videos" and I replied "that sounds like a joke". I think it's not that insulting. This case might be the same.

I didn't find it insulting, but it's a disrespectful way to discredit other people's different opinions. I don't understand why Aesthetics would be shocked by my statement since Han Yan's skating skills have generally been appreciated by a lot of people (and by SS I'm not only referring to jumps - but also his knees, his edge control and of course his fast skating - things which admittedly haven't been that good in this particular SP).

Anyway, I don't want to further perpetuate the argument about Hanyu and Yan, especially considering the circumstances right now. I would like to keep them both in my thoughts and wish them fast recovery.

 

[Interspectator]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x29swt4_1110-報ステ_sport
Here is an interview with Hanyu directly after his performance. It's a quick translation I did so if you find discrepancies, please correct me.
This comes at the last half of the video clip 5:00 mark.

Narrator:
Amidst the differing opinions of whether or not Hanyu should have skated, this is what he said right after his performance.
Hanyu in wheelchair in the back hallway
Hanyu: Thank you, I’m sorry for the trouble.
Interviewer kneeling in front of Hanyu in wheelchair
Matsuoka: Your feelings came across strongly.
Hanyu: You don’t have to…please stand up.
Matsuoka stands: Did you not feel the choice to withdraw?
Hanyu: No, I thought about it. At the 6 minute warm –up I thought, ‘so this is the end of it’
I couldn’t even stand. (blood I think) was in my throat so I couldn’t breathe. I was looking at the ceiling thinking , it’s going to end here.
But I DID IT so it’s all ok!
Matsuoka: I thought you felt you had something to prove as an OGM? I think you showed everyone…not to give up.
Hanyu: That’s good. I’m really glad I didn’t give up.
At this time Hanyu is wheeling himself toward a van in a parking lot. He bows to Matsuoka.
Hanyu: Thank you very much. I was helped by everyone. Thank you!
Staff members help him out of the wheelchair and they are trying to get him into the van but he turns and bows again at the camera and says ‘Thank you!’

Whether it was right or wrong...in Hanyu's mind, if he can stand up, he is going to perform.
-That's the impression I got from this interview. I don't think he was considering setting dangerous precedents or how other people would react to what he was doing...He just wanted to skate.

 

[unico]

it's objectively true that Yuzuru has better artistry

You can certainly analyze artistry with objective measures, but you can't "objectively" prove anybody has better artistry... although that certainly doesn't stop people from arguing. To me Hanyu's artistry isn't like Takahashi's at all, just like how Machida's isn't, or Chan's, or Lambiel's, they're are all different. Anyone can make analytic cases for why they think X skater is more artistic than Y, and those are interesting to read and debate even though there won't be a conclusion that everyone can agree on.

People's opinions are different, "artistry" is means different things to different people, people on forums insult each other, the world is round, water is wet.

Skating skills should be more objective to analyze, but I wouldn't really know until I see them in person at the same event with both of them skating pretty well. I do think Kovtun is waaay below either of them though LOL

 

[Meoima]

You can certainly analyze artistry with objective measures, but you can't "objectively" prove anybody has better artistry... although that certainly doesn't stop people from arguing. To me Hanyu's artistry isn't like Takahashi's at all, just like how Machida's isn't, or Chan's, or Lambiel's, they're are all different.

I mean compare to the field on that day. When everyone was off. I don't compare Yuzuru's artistry to Dai or to Tatsuki or Lambiel at all. I mean the field CoC that day.

Even though as BoP has stated, it's Misha Ge who should have won the SP and the LP.

 

[iceberg]

You can certainly analyze artistry with objective measures, but you can't "objectively" prove anybody has better artistry... although that certainly doesn't stop people from arguing. To me Hanyu's artistry isn't like Takahashi's at all, just like how Machida's isn't, or Chan's, or Lambiel's, they're are all different. Anyone can make analytic cases for why they think X skater is more artistic than Y, and those are interesting to read and debate even though there won't be a conclusion that everyone can agree on.

People's opinions are different, "artistry" is means different things to different people, people on forums insult each other, the world is round, water is wet.

Skating skills should be more objective to analyze, but I wouldn't really know until I see them in person at the same event with both of them skating pretty well. I do think Kovtun is waaay below either of them though LOL

Very well said. Some people are just too know-it-all sometimes.

 

[satine]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x29swt4_1110-報ステ_sport
Here is an interview with Hanyu directly after his performance. It's a quick translation I did so if you find discrepancies, please correct me.
This comes at the last half of the video clip 5:00 mark.


Whether it was right or wrong...in Hanyu's mind, if he can stand up, he is going to perform.
-That's the impression I got from this interview. I don't think he was considering setting dangerous precedents or how other people would react to what he was doing...He just wanted to skate.

Thanks so much for the translation I could only understand half of what was said myself. I quoted it in the other thread, hope you don't mind.

I know some will never agree with what he & Han chose. For me, it is not simply black and white... I personally would have preferred there to be either a chance to postpone their skates, or to have better guidelines in place from the ISU to not allow skaters to perform if they hit their head or are unconscious at any point from a recent injury. But a small part of me understands their dangerous decision. I think to hear that for Yuzuru it was not simply 'Yes, I absolutely will skate' decision can be of comfort to some skating fans.

 

[chloepoco]

I wish both Yuzuru Hanyu and Han Yan a full and speedy recovery!

And, would just like to say, I think Misha Ge is just so sweet ~ I love his tweets of encouragement and concern for the two skaters!

 

[Bonesfan]

AFP articles

FIGURE SKATING
Japan officials under fire after Hanyu's collision at Cup of China
SPORTS NOV. 10, 2014 - 05:15PM JST ( 10 )

http://www.japantoday.com/category/...r-fire-after-hanyus-collision-at-cup-of-china

shorter version in Los Angeles Times
Japanese officials criticized for letting injured figure skater compete
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-japanese-figure-skater-20141110-story.html

 

[satine]

AFP articles

FIGURE SKATING
Japan officials under fire after Hanyu's collision at Cup of China
SPORTS NOV. 10, 2014 - 05:15PM JST ( 10 )

http://www.japantoday.com/category/...r-fire-after-hanyus-collision-at-cup-of-china

shorter version in Los Angeles Times
Japanese officials criticized for letting injured figure skater compete
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-japanese-figure-skater-20141110-story.html

Can't say I wasn't expecting them to get major backlash... hwell:

 

[Love Figure Skating]

Perhaps, not related to health issues, but needed to make it clear:
ISU regulations for the score are very precise. Jumps are judged not only for the landing. A Base Value is given per jump, of an average execution; a required number of turns in the air to be qualified as a specific jump, and for the use of edges both for taking off and landing on the ice, etc.
Hanyu was credited with Base Values for the 5 jumps he fell, because he managed to make a required number of turns in the air, and the use of edge was correct before each fall (except for a Triple Loop). 2 of 5 jumps in question had much higher Base Values because they were Quadruple jumps. Certainly, it is fair to get a higher score for attempting jumps with more turns even with a mistake. For the mistakes, Grade of Execusion marks between -3 and +3 are added to the Base Values, and Hanyu got minus GOEs. Hanyu did however accumulate points on 4 Triple jumps he executed cleanly.
He also managed to complete various spins of higher difficulty levels. Thus, his was the second highest Element Score (Jumps, Spins and Step Sequences) in the Free competition (after Nam NGUYEN of Canada, whose overall standing came to be of 5th).
Moreover, Hanyu’s Component Score was the highest in the competition. Component Score consists of Skating Skills, Transition, Execution, Choreography and Interpretation. Hanyu was simply better than others at all of these. For example, Hanyu’s foot works, and also entries to and exits from each Element were more complicated than those of others, and he executed them better than others.
Hanyu was given 5 points deductions for the falls. There was nothing wrong with his standing.
After banging head twice (first on the shoulder of Yan Han, then on ice), and while suffering from disorientation, completing his programme at a level he produced was truly remarkable.
But I was horrified to see he was allowed to skate at all, before the absense of brain injury was confirmed by medical tests.

The second is - NO ONE should get a medal who falls FIVE times in a program. I think the ISU should give some serious thought to the penalties for falling. Once or twice, maybe, but FIVE times? That's just sending a message to all skaters that it doesn't matter whether you land your quad - go for it anyway! To me that's a negative message that will denigrate the validity of an already suspect scoring system.

 

[begin]

AFP articles

FIGURE SKATING
Japan officials under fire after Hanyu's collision at Cup of China
SPORTS NOV. 10, 2014 - 05:15PM JST ( 10 )

http://www.japantoday.com/category/...r-fire-after-hanyus-collision-at-cup-of-china

shorter version in Los Angeles Times
Japanese officials criticized for letting injured figure skater compete
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-japanese-figure-skater-20141110-story.html

I'm so glad this hasn't been buried. It was incredibly irresponsible and the ISU ought to overhaul their rules.

 

[alia jackson]

Another angle of the accident At 1:03 slow motion of the way Yuzu chin crash on the ice and head bounced back

 

[karne]

AFP articles

FIGURE SKATING
Japan officials under fire after Hanyu's collision at Cup of China
SPORTS NOV. 10, 2014 - 05:15PM JST ( 10 )

http://www.japantoday.com/category/...r-fire-after-hanyus-collision-at-cup-of-china

shorter version in Los Angeles Times
Japanese officials criticized for letting injured figure skater compete
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-japanese-figure-skater-20141110-story.html

Good. So they should be.

 

[cruzceleste]

AFP articles

FIGURE SKATING
Japan officials under fire after Hanyu's collision at Cup of China
SPORTS NOV. 10, 2014 - 05:15PM JST ( 10 )

http://www.japantoday.com/category/...r-fire-after-hanyus-collision-at-cup-of-china

shorter version in Los Angeles Times
Japanese officials criticized for letting injured figure skater compete
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-japanese-figure-skater-20141110-story.html

Another article, this one from USA TODAY: Scary figure skating collision an opportunity for change
http://q.usatoday.com/2014/11/10/sc...ge/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[lbc2138]

Another article, this one from USA TODAY: Scary figure skating collision an opportunity for change
http://q.usatoday.com/2014/11/10/sc...ge/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Great stuff guys. I hope with these conversations will lead to some very needed changes.