2014 Cup of China Mens Short Program 11/07

[Sandpiper]

On this podcast with Kurt Browning and PJ Kwong, they answer a viewer question about whether athletes should be ordered to withdraw immediately if they receive a head injury. For anyone who may not be able to watch it due to being outside Canada:

While Kwong seems to believe some more safety measures should be imposed (she wasn't very emphatic), Browning vehemently disagreed. He believes both Han Yan and Yuzuru Hanyu were checked out by the doctors, given the okay to skate, and did so. He did say that "if the referee were a medical doctor," perhaps the athletes should listen to them... But he says ultimately the decision lies with the athlete, and I don't think he has a problem with that. He also said that head injuries aren't common in FS and people shouldn't worry too much about the incident.

(Just linking it in case anyone is interested on a skater's take. I can certainly understand Browning's POV--not wanting someone else to make the withdrawal decision for you--though I was surprised by how he was almost... dismissive of head injuries. Even humorously told a story about how he hit his head in a recent practice, and came out fine.)

 

[peg]

I can understand how he as a former athlete wouldn't want anyone else to make the decision - heck, I'm sure that a lot of athletes in other sports where they do have regulations about these things probably would have continued if the decision was left up to them. But sometimes, you really do need direction from someone who can see the bigger picture. Competing may seem all important to the athlete at that place and time, but in the grand scheme of things, their life and long-term health is more important.

I actually think Hanyu exacerbated his injuries by competing. Had he not competed, I suspect he wouldn't have needed as much time to recover and would have been healthy by NHK. Now, who know. Though knowing him, he'll compete even if he's not fully recovered. Silly boy.

 

[Mrs. P]

Just something to chew over: Rachael Flatt got fined (not to mention dropped from 8th to 12th place) by U.S. Figure Skating for skating injured at 2011 Worlds: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...asu-reprimands

She also got a LOT of consternation from posters on this board for skating injured.

Hanyu falls five times and skates with a major injury and not only gets a GP medal but heaps of praise for toughing it out.

I realize it's not a perfect comparison: In Rachael's case the argument is they should have sent someone else by disclosing her injury early (and perhaps not cost the U.S. a third spot at Worlds the following year) -- but it's funny one view injuries depending on the skater involved.

 

[Meoima]

Just something to chew over: Rachael Flatt got fined (not to mention dropped from 8th to 12th place) by U.S. Figure Skating for skating injured at 2011 Worlds: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...asu-reprimands
She also got a LOT of consternation from posters on this board for skating injured.
Hanyu falls five times and skates with a major injury and not only gets a GP medal but heaps of praise for toughing it out.
I realize it's not a perfect comparison: In Rachael's case the argument is they should have sent someone else by disclosing her injury early (and perhaps not cost the U.S. a third spot at Worlds the following year) -- but it's funny one view injuries depending on the skater involved.

How's it different? I was not here by that time. But by your tone I have the feeling Rachael's incident did received lot of concerns from many posters. How is it different with people are paying attention to Yuzuru and Han Yan's collision?

 

[Interspectator]

Just something to chew over: Rachael Flatt got fined (not to mention dropped from 8th to 12th place) by U.S. Figure Skating for skating injured at 2011 Worlds: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...asu-reprimands

She also got a LOT of consternation from posters on this board for skating injured.

Hanyu falls five times and skates with a major injury and not only gets a GP medal but heaps of praise for toughing it out.

I realize it's not a perfect comparison: In Rachael's case the argument is they should have sent someone else by disclosing her injury early (and perhaps not cost the U.S. a third spot at Worlds the following year) -- but it's funny one view injuries depending on the skater involved.

So is it up to the Nations skating federation to enforce rules like these? Perhaps the ISU should put rules in place too so that it is evenly enforced across all countries?

Also, what extent of injury should count as 'too injured to skate'?
For example, Takahashi skated at Sochi while getting his knee drained of fluids every night. This seems extreme to me.
For sure, getting hit on the head should automatically rule one out as being fit to skate.

The thing that needs to be clear cut is who will make the call. JSF is trying to shrug off responsibility saying they thought Hanyu would withdraw, but he didn't.
So, is the responsibility of whether to skate or not resting ultimately on the skater, the coach or the skating federation?

 

[Mrs. P]

How's it different? I was not here by that time. But by your tone I have the feeling Rachael's incident did received lot of concerns from many posters. How is it different with people are paying attention to Yuzuru and Han Yan's collision?

She received a lot of criticism for skating injured. I get part of the reason she got the blame was because she cost the U.S. the chance at a third spot at Worlds (Frank Carroll claimed Mirai was ready and would have done better).

So I realize there was a key difference. But like Hanyu, she tried to tough it out and she did not succeed and got punished for it, both in the public square and by her federation.

 

[Mrs. P]

So is it up to the Nations skating federation to enforce rules like these? Perhaps the ISU should put rules in place too so that it is evenly enforced across all countries?

Also, what extent of injury should count as 'too injured to skate'?
For example, Takahashi skated at Sochi while getting his knee drained of fluids every night. This seems extreme to me.
For sure, getting hit on the head should automatically rule one out as being fit to skate.

The thing that needs to be clear cut is who will make the call. JSF is trying to shrug off responsibility saying they thought Hanyu would withdraw, but he didn't.
So, is the responsibility of whether to skate or not resting ultimately on the skater, the coach or the skating federation?

Per Phil Hersh's article -- he points that Rachael should have been upfront about the status of her injury. He cited a clause in the Team USA policy:

I, the skater, agree to adhere to my seasonal plan and to develop and maintain a level of health and fitness that will enable me to train at a high level and compete in peak condition. In the event that I become injured and/or ill to the extent that I require surgery and/or ongoing medical treatment, and/or is otherwise unable to train consistently, effectively, and according to the seasonal plan, and which may therefore jeopardize my ability to compete for Team USA, I agree to communicate the situation with U.S. Figure Skating’s Director of Sports Sciences & Medicine and/or Senior Director of Athlete High Performance.

So the JSF may not be far off in expecting the skate to take action.

 

[Interspectator]

She received a lot of criticism for skating injured. I get part of the reason she got the blame was because she cost the U.S. the chance at a third spot at Worlds (Frank Carroll claimed Mirai was ready and would have done better).

So I realize there was a key difference. But like Hanyu, she tried to tough it out and she did not succeed and got punished for it, both in the public square and by her federation.

...imagine the stink that would be raised by the Japanese fans if JSF tried to punish Hanyu in any way...

 

[Mrs. P]

...imagine the stink that would be raised by the Japanese fans if JSF tried to punish Hanyu in any way...

Oh boy! Yeah, better not to and move on.

But it's interesting though -- some have been more successful than others in skating inured.

 

[peg]

I think part of the difference in how it is viewed also has to do with the result the skaters managed to get. Hanyu protected his shot at GPF, so he is a hero to many. Flatt's performance likely cost the US a third spot at Worlds, so she is a villain. I'm sure if she had managed a silver medal (though granted that would have been far more difficult at Worlds) she would have been considered a hero as well for skating through injury.... just as Stojko was considered a hero for skating injured and getting Olympic silver in 1998

 

[Mrs. P]

I think part of the difference in how it is viewed also has to do with the result the skaters managed to get. Hanyu protected his shot at GPF, so he is a hero to many. Flatt's performance likely cost the US a third spot at Worlds, so she is a villain. I'm sure if she had managed a silver medal (though granted that would have been far more difficult at Worlds) she would have been considered a hero as well for skating through injury.... just as Stojko was considered a hero for skating injured and getting Olympic silver in 1998

Yep exactly.

The problem is that Rachael didn't LOSE a spot for the U.S. -- she just wasn't able to help the U.S. GAIN a third spot and who knows whether Mirai would have actually performed well enough to do so. Frank Carroll claimed she would have been able to.

But I guess in hindsight, Mirai was healthy so I can see how some were irritated by Rachael's decision to skate. However I felt it was overkill at times.

 

[Meoima]

She received a lot of criticism for skating injured. I get part of the reason she got the blame was because she cost the U.S. the chance at a third spot at Worlds (Frank Carroll claimed Mirai was ready and would have done better).
So I realize there was a key difference. But like Hanyu, she tried to tough it out and she did not succeed and got punished for it, both in the public square and by her federation.

Actually I can see that tons of posters here have said that Yuzuru and Han Yan were utterly stupid to skate, if that's not criticism then I don't know what is. My friend in Japan also said the same. It's not like everybody think of that action as heroic. On tumblr I can see many post saying "omg why didn't they think of their health, they are stupid and reckless". Tons of things like that.

But heck... he were injured in the head, so people might think that he didn't think rationally by that time. And people were scared that he might have gotten concussion. So I think it's understandable why they don't want to be too harsh on him.

Personally I think it's stupid but I can't hate these 2 young men for what they did. :scowl:

PS: And it's just a GP, it's not WC or Olympic so in this case people don't have to think of the "spots" for their countries, though.

 

[Matt K]

I think part of the difference in how it is viewed also has to do with the result the skaters managed to get. Hanyu protected his shot at GPF, so he is a hero to many. Flatt's performance likely cost the US a third spot at Worlds, so she is a villain.

And then there are others, who in mid-performance has to stop due to injury, and get vilified by silly fans of their rivals accusing them of faking injury. :disapp: GoldenSkate. :disapp:

My concern is only that the Hanyu got cleared to skate by a medical professional before taking the ice. Concussions are no laughing matter. We do not need to see the first ever person die on the ice.

 

[Mrs. P]

Actually I can see that tons of posters here have said that Yuzuru and Han Yan were utter stupid to skate, if that's not criticism then I don't know what is. My friend in Japan also said the same. It's not like everybody think of that action as heroic. On tumblr I can see many post saying "omg why didn't they think of their health".
But heck... he were injured in the head, so people might think that he didn't think rationally by that time. I think it's understandable.
Personally I think it's stupid but I can't hate these 2 young men for what they did.

Rachael was seen more of a villian, honestly. Nobody really cared about her health just that she did poorly and cost hte U.S. a chance at a third ladies spot.

 

[peg]

Actually I can see that tons of posters here have said that Yuzuru and Han Yan were utter stupid to skate, if that's not criticism then I don't know what is. My friend in Japan also said the same. It's not like everybody think of that action as heroic. On tumblr I can see many post saying "omg why didn't they think of their health, they are stupid and reckless". Tons of things like that.

But heck... he were injured in the head, so people might think that he didn't think rationally by that time. And people were scared that he might have gotten concussion. So I think it's understandable why they don't want to be too harsh on him.

Personally I think it's stupid but I can't hate these 2 young men for what they did. :scowl:

Yes, a lot of people are saying neither of them should have skated, given how bad that crash was and that they skated so shortly after. But there are also a lot of people who are praising those actions.

I also wish Kozuka would let his injuries heal properly instead of pushing himself and then skating far below his potential :scowl:

 

[Meoima]

Rachael was seen more of a villian, honestly. Nobody really cared about her health just that she did poorly and cost hte U.S. a chance at a third ladies spot.

Poor her, why didn't they care about her health? That's cruel.

 

[Interspectator]

I think Hanyu has been encouraged in his mentality of 'skating injured'.
He has, in fact done it before a few times with 'good' results.
At the 2013 Worlds if he hadn't skated with a knee injury, Japan would have lost it's 3rd spot in the Olympics.
He had a sprained ankle in 2012 worlds -result 3rd place.
He had the flu at the GPF in 2012 and was unable to attend the gala afterwards.

Subconsciously, all these things affect choices made in the present.

 

[peg]

Poor her, why didn't they care about her health? That's cruel.

Because we expect to much of the skaters

 

[jimeonji]

I would like to direct everyone's attention to this essay written by a group of figure skating fans titled "The Blame Game." It very thoroughly goes through the context of the situation, head injuries in other sports, and various ISU rules as they relate to what happened on Saturday. It's quite long but very worth the time and makes some important points about the situation and how inappopriately it was handled, in my opinion.

 

[Interspectator]

And then there are others, who in mid-performance has to stop due to injury, and get vilified by silly fans of their rivals accusing them of faking injury. :disapp: GoldenSkate. :disapp:

My concern is only that the Hanyu got cleared to skate by a medical professional before taking the ice. Concussions are no laughing matter. We do not need to see the first ever person die on the ice.

Thankfully, there are only a small number of posters who will criticize a skater for not skating if injured; here at Golden Skate and in other places too. They stand out because they are very vocal about their views.
I find that most posters here are sympathetic to skaters who are injured -as you can see in the 'Injuries and other Ills' thread.
:yes: