2014 Skate Canada Ladies FS 11/01

[Mrs. P]

People can give standing ovations but that doesn't necessarily translate into higher PCS scores.

Another key example is Skate America 2012, which I attended. I gave Christina Gao a standing ovation (as did the rest of the arena) because she had a clean and great skate. However, Adelina Sotnikova, who made a number of errors, still received a higher PCS score (59.67 vs. 56.98 for Christina).

People can give standing ovations for a great performance, but PCS measures more than that. Using the Adelina and Christina example -- despite Adelina's mistakes, I can see why she still received a higher PCS score. Despite the mistakes Adelina's skating skills/speed/presence, etc was still quite superior than Christina's, despite the later having a clean performance.

I personally like Satoko's program a lot, but I can see how in the view of some (including judges) that perhaps she didn't quite project herself.

 

[shine]

Jumps are the biggest elements in FS, so of course they count. Anna definitely has better looks, and big presence on ice, aside from her huge jumps. Judges have no reason to underscore Satoko given the fact that she is now considered JSf No.2 or maybe no.1. And they have not much reason to over-score Anna Pogo because she is not even Russia no.1, she is their no.3 or even 4.

How long will it take for people to realize that PCS as it is scored now should be taken with a grain of salt? They are mostly just placeholders for putting the right skater in the right order. And Pogoriyala being a World medalist, and Wagner has a much longer standing reputation than Miyahara, of course the judges ranked them the way they did, which I dont' really have a beef with.

But if we really want to discuss PCS, then with all objectivity, Miyahara beats Pogo in SS, TR, CH, and PE. With IN, if you like flailing, generic and immature dramatiks as opposed to nuanced movement done to every note and dynamic change of the music, then I guess you can make a case for Pogoriyala. And I'm so tired of this "because she looks young, therefore she skates young" argument. Can we be a little more discerning than the once in every four year fans? And more importantly, can the JUDGES be more discerning, please? Miyahara has the most precocious and complete presentation of all the young up and comers!

 

[gotoschool]

People can give standing ovations but that doesn't necessarily translate into higher PCS scores.

Another key example is Skate America 2012, which I attended. I gave Christina Gao a standing ovation (as did the rest of the arena) because she had a clean and great skate. However, Adelina Sotnikova, who made a number of errors, still received a higher PCS score (59.67 vs. 56.98 for Christina).

People can give standing ovations for a great performance, but PCS measures more than that. Using the Adelina and Christina example -- despite Adelina's mistakes, I can see why she still received a higher PCS score. Despite the mistakes Adelina's skating skills/speed/presence, etc was still quite superior than Christina's, despite the later having a clean performance.

I personally like Satoko's program a lot, but I can see how in the view of some (including judges) that perhaps she didn't quite project herself.

I didn't even mention PCS scores in my post because I just wanted to express the joy I felt from watching the elements in Satoko's performance, instead of trying to quantify the elements mathematically. The point is that the audience responded to her the most, which shows that she did project. Otherwise, they would not have responded, so some other argument for low PCS should be used. So, in one competition like the Sochi Olympics, getting the crowd involved was given as a reason for increasing PCS and shows projection, yet when the crowd gives a standing ovation to a skater at Skate Canada that skater didn't project and gets 4 points lower than Anna and 6 points lower than Ashley in PCS. Projection seems to carry contradictory meanings and usages. I don't really take the scores all that seriously and try to find performances that I really like. It may bother me if they don't get the highest score or a Gold medal, but I cherish the performances just the same because the joy of watching the sport to me is not found in who wins the judge's mathematical computation.

 

[BounceAround]

I personally like Satoko's program a lot, but I can see how in the view of some (including judges) that perhaps she didn't quite project herself.

Thanks for sharing your impressions from the live competition! I agree that this is probably what the judges had in mind, but my issue is that this is relevant to one or at most two of the PCS categories.

 

[Meoima]

How long will it take for people to realize that PCS as it is scored now should be taken with a grain of salt? They are mostly just placeholders for putting the right skater in the right order. And Pogoriyala being a World medalist, and Wagner has a much longer standing reputation than Miyahara, of course the judges ranked them the way they did, which I dont' really have a beef with.

I agree that PCS is just to put skaters in order. But since when Anna Pogorilaya a world medalist??? she went to world and didn't get the bronze she deserved.

 

[ks777]

As for those who seem intent on downplaying Satoko's performance, the crowd's reaction speaks for itself because the biggest standing ovation I saw for the women in the LP was for Satoko, and I also liked her LP the best. It's not a national thing for me because I liked Soyoun Park's LP the best from Skate America. Besides, I thought Anna also skated really well, and Ashley was pretty good.

I thought Satoko skated with a high degree of artistic polish and in a light ethereal style which reminds me quite a bit of Lu Chen, though her spins and spirals are more flexible.

It was the end of her program that captivated me the most because of the way Satoko glided in an arabesque that curved across the rink and transitioned subtly into a serpentine turn and a series of pirouettes with her right hand positioned delicately atop her head, as a ballerina in a music box that mirrored perfectly the gentle tinkling on the piano keys. Then, she exited this position with finely drawn out extensions of her arms and legs, and balletic turns before dashing to her final triple flip. Next, she began with a counterclockwise camel before dropping into a broken leg sit spin. Finally. she did what I think no other lady in the competition did: she immediately switched the direction of her rotation to clockwise before dropping into a shoot the duck sit spin and concluded with a rapidly rotating I spin.

Even though it would be nice if she could vault higher, I really love Satoko's skating the way it is. That last spiral and spin sequence with the triple flip in between was mesmerizing.

I felt the same way you did at the end of her program, I was almost in tears, it was just so beautifully skated and choreographed.

 

[dorispulaski]

Worlds is not like US Nationals, where they have a fourth place pewter medal. However, they have "small" medals for the SP and LP.
http://www.isuresults.com/events/cat00028068.htm

Since Anna was third in the free skate at Worlds, she received a bronze "small medal" and so is a world medalist, in at least one sense.

 

[Mrs. P]

Thanks for sharing your impressions from the live competition! I agree that this is probably what the judges had in mind, but my issue is that this is relevant to one or at most two of the PCS categories.

To clarify, I wasn't at Skate Canada! I was at Skate America in 2012. . (Although perhaps you're thanking me for giving impressions from a live competition.)

That said -- I use my Skate America example to explain that connecting/responding to a skater and admitting another skater has better qualities that PCS seeks are not mutually exclusive.

.

 

[NYscorp6]

I think Wagner got a pass this go round, but I doubt that kind of treatment will continue.

I agree, I think the judges marks were generous for Ashley at Skate Canada.

 

[BounceAround]

To clarify, I wasn't at Skate Canada! I was at Skate America in 2012. . (Although perhaps you're thanking me for giving impressions from a live competition.)
.

Yes - that's exactly what I meant. I love hearing about impressions from live competitions.

 

[Mrs. P]

Ashley got higher marks last season, actually.

64.92 Skate Canada 2014 (57.22 TES)
65.88 Worlds 2014
66.92 Olympics 2014
64.41 Grand Prix Final 2013 (56.06 TES w/ -1 fall)
65.81 Trophee Eric Bompard 2013
66.01 Skate America 2013

The exception is GPF, but the difference is minimal.

Ashley isn't the worst example of the big gap between PCS vs. TES. I've definitely seen bigger gaps.

 

[apgold]

Ashley isn't the worst example of the big gap between PCS vs. TES. I've definitely seen bigger gaps.

The biggest gap in recent memory is the 10 point one Carolina got at Worlds. I think her TES was 55 and the PCS was 65 or so.

I think Ashley was scored accurately - she really sold that program and I thought her speed was better than last season. Her spins were faster, too.

 

[Mrs. P]

The biggest gap in recent memory is the 10 point one Carolina got at Worlds. I think her TES was 55 and the PCS was 65 or so.

I think Ashley was scored accurately - she really sold that program and I thought her speed was better than last season. Her spins were faster, too.

Actually there has been some sizable gaps in Men.

TAkahiko Kozuka got 84.06 in PCS but only 68.42 in TES at Worlds FS.

or
Daisuke Takahashi's 91 points v. 73.27 in TES the Olympics. (And that's a gap I was fine with. That program was lovely, even with the technical errors).

 

[tikse]

How long will it take for people to realize that PCS as it is scored now should be taken with a grain of salt? They are mostly just placeholders for putting the right skater in the right order. And Pogoriyala being a World medalist, and Wagner has a much longer standing reputation than Miyahara, of course the judges ranked them the way they did, which I dont' really have a beef with.

But if we really want to discuss PCS, then with all objectivity, Miyahara beats Pogo in SS, TR, CH, and PE. With IN, if you like flailing, generic and immature dramatiks as opposed to nuanced movement done to every note and dynamic change of the music, then I guess you can make a case for Pogoriyala. And I'm so tired of this "because she looks young, therefore she skates young" argument. Can we be a little more discerning than the once in every four year fans? And more importantly, can the JUDGES be more discerning, please? Miyahara has the most precocious and complete presentation of all the young up and comers!

Could you provide more details on the bolded part of your post? Exactly why do you think Miyahara with all objectivity beats Pogorilaya in CH,PE and especially SS and TR?

 

[FlattFan]

Carolina has the best SS in the world with very well received programs. Don't compare her to Ashley Wagner's PCS, please.

 

[Sandpiper]

Carolina has the best SS in the world with very well received programs. Don't compare her to Ashley Wagner's PCS, please.

But Carolina's Worlds LP was a hot mess. Ashley certainly didn't skate like that during Skate Canada.

 

[Red Helicopter]

But if we really want to discuss PCS, then with all objectivity, Miyahara beats Pogo in SS, TR, CH, and PE.

Could you actually prove that? Could you analyze a bit their programs and show that judges were wrong? If you can't, then it just your opinion, and we can say that you just like Miyahara's skating more than Anna's one, and no conclusions about PCS can be done.

Honestly, we have 9 experts who were actually judges at Skate Canada, who said their "word" by their scores - and on the other hand, we have some "experts" among FS fan community who have the opposite opinion. And whose opinion appears to be more trustworthy and more looking like an objective one? The answer is evident for everyone who isn't biased.

And Pogoriyala being a World medalist

1. Not "Pogoriyala" but Pogorilaya.
2. Not world medalist but just 4-th place.
Two errors in few words, isn't it to much for an expert?

 

[dorispulaski]

Anna earned a small bronze at Worlds for placing third in the free skate.

 

[Mrs. P]

Could you actually prove that? Could you analyze their programs a bit and show that judges were wrong? If you can't, then it just your opinion, and we can say that you just like Miyahara's skating more than Anna's one, and no conclusions about PCS can be done.

Honestly, we have 9 experts who were actually judges at Skate Canada, who said their "word" by their scores - and on the other hand, we have some "experts" among FS fan community who have the opposite opinion. And whose opinion appears to be more trustworthy and more looking like an objective one? The answer is evident for everyone who isn't biased.

Playing devil's advocate here, but there are times there has been valid judging disputes over the years, so the judge is always right principle doesn't always apply.

I think the challenge is there is disagreement of whether Ashley is "Very Good," Anna on the higher end of "Good" and Satoko on the lower end of "Good" --- http://static.isu.org/media/146428/program-components-overview-2014.pdf

Anyway, this might be a worthy discussion to revisit in the Lutz Corner. Doris did a really nice discussion to PCS in Ice Dance a few years back (http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36573-Ice-Dancing-PCS-Rules-2011-2012), so perhaps we should try to evaluate singles as well. Or better yet, let's use this competition since this seems to be where much of the debate has been. Stay tuned.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Satoko isn't the only Japanese lady who was held down by the judging here, I also felt Rika Hongo should have placed a spot higher. She is a more musical skater than Courtney Hicks, but that wasn't reflected in the PCS. The scoring on her jumps was stingy: the < call and -GOE on the 3Flip+3Toe combo was too much, it was borderline on the rotation and well executed overall. That 'e' on her Lutz with big -GOE was also too much, it was only a slight edge change and the height, rotation, and landing were all there.

Courtney Hicks not being given a fall deduction for her Lutz catastrophe in the Long Program was also not a call I agree with. Her butt didn't touch the ice, but her landing leg was completely touching the ice and her arm was propping her up. Her weight was no longer supported primarily by the skates.